Destroying America

[stebo0728]

Just a quick question here. I hear liberals make the claim that conservatives are destroying America. That makes no kind of sense to me, because conservatism is about getting back to our roots, our founding principles, where as the liberal movement is the movement of change. How can you destroy an establishment by keeping it the same? It seems only logical that destruction comes from unreasoned change.

[heliochrome85]

Just a quick question here. I hear liberals make the claim that conservatives are destroying America. That makes no kind of sense to me, because conservatism is about getting back to our roots, our founding principles, where as the liberal movement is the movement of change. How can you destroy an establishment by keeping it the same? It seems only logical that destruction comes from unreasoned change.

im fairly certain its the other way around kid. last i checked, the democrats dont really put up much of a fight. its the republicans who believe obama is the antichrist, trying to bring about the socialist apocolypse. show me one website that is running a "GOP kills america" ad, and ill show you 20 that show "The Democrats are destroying this country."

[stebo0728]

OH I know, im not saying the repubes dont make the same claim against the dems. And Im not referencing ads necessarily, more angry blog comments, angry talk show callers, and the like. I hear it alot in that audience, both sides claiming impending destruction, but the argument seems less feasible coming from liberals.

[heliochrome85]

what shows do you hear liberals complaining about republicans? seriously. liberals DO NOT have talk shows that are carried by the main stream. if anything, its the variety of conservative talk show hosts who are the ones hurling these claims.

seriously. bring me proof that this is happening, that liberals are making this claim in large numbers.

[AppleBonker]

I generally rule out people who seem psychotic. There's no explaining it, so I just avoid it. If one doesn't understand what they are talking about, it's not likely that I will be able to figure it out. And it's not possible that I will care...

[IBCoupe]

The only time I hear liberals saying that conservatives are destroying America is when it's in response to some giant display of stupid, as if stupid is something limited to the right. You might hear, "You're bringing down America!" and I'll probably hear, "You're really hurting our average, bro."

[IBCoupe]

I'm gonna have fun, now.

[IBCoupe]

[IBCoupe]

[IBCoupe]

But this is really why they're pissed off at Republicans:



"ROTATE, you stupid block, ROTATE!"

[IBCoupe]

But then they keep getting excuses to cover up the truth.

[Cold_Zero]

Oh man, IBCoupe has resorted to pictures to make his arguments. Please let me know when he breaks out the puppets, should be a good show. j.k.

[stebo0728]

Oh man, IBCoupe has resorted to pictures to make his arguments. Please let me know when he breaks out the puppets, should be a good show. j.k.

[AZhitman]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

(...is that a Rosie O'Donnell puppet?)

[dusred]

One question I have just to set my mind straight (this is for those of you who are left of center: IB, Helio, ect): Can we agree that this nation was founded on Conservative principles (less government, ect) or do you believe it was founded on Liberal principles?

[stebo0728]

I think I can predict your answer there Dus -

The nation was founded on conservative principles, but since we have migrated from an agrarian society, to a more industrial society, liberal policies are now required.

I of course disagree with this notion, but I believe that is essentially the position, feel free to correct me, as Im sure you will.

[Cold_Zero]

Doesnt classic liberalism embody unfettered liberty/freedoms?

[IBCoupe]

One question I have just to set my mind straight (this is for those of you who are left of center: IB, Helio, ect): Can we agree that this nation was founded on Conservative principles (less government, ect) or do you believe it was founded on Liberal principles?

Our country's principles haven't changed much. Stebo's right, many of them were conservative (in the American meaning of the word). But I think arguing that we were, as a whole, more "conservative" overstates the point. Remember that the Federalists, today's liberals (in the American meaning of the word), were quite prominent. They favored greater centralization and a stronger Federal Government.

And Stebo's right about another part of the issue: even Thomas Jefferson, probably the epitome of a Republican (originally and now), acknowledged that his ideals become irrelevant in a non-agrarian society. And early America wasn't all agrarian, which is why federalist thought developed. So, as American becomes more urban on average, you're going to see it become more liberal, on average.

But I think the single greatest lie perpetuated by right-leaning media outlets is that conservative thought is somehow more true to the Constitution than liberal thought is, in order to say that liberals are somehow less American. The whole reason we continue to have debates about Constitutional meaning is because it was made as vague as it needed to be in order to be accepted by early America's liberal and conservative leaders, who were probably as strongly opposed to one another's ideals as we are now.

America's foundation - the Constitution - isn't only conservative or liberal. If it had been one or the other, it wouldn't have been our Constitution, or our foundation.

[AZhitman]

^ This.

[stebo0728]

I figured I was atleast somewhere in the ball park there. But I have to say, although I agree that times change, and a more technological/industrial society has differing requirements from an agrarian society, that does not mean that the fundamentals are subject to change. The modern liberal movement is all about CHANGING our fundamental core. Even the POTUS said, (a rough quote) "America is the greatest nation, work with me and together we'll change it". WTF?!?

Minor needs may change, but our core values of freedom of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness need not be tinkered with. Out modern notion of legalized plunder has already run its course in Europe, yet we refuse to learn their bitter lesson. When will we wake up and realize that freedom, liberty, and PRIVATE PROPERTY rights are crucial to maintain. We are not an ant colony, we are humans, we all look out for #1. Socialism tries to treat us as colony minded individuals, and it just doesnt work.

[heliochrome85]

One question I have just to set my mind straight (this is for those of you who are left of center: IB, Helio, ect): Can we agree that this nation was founded on Conservative principles (less government, ect) or do you believe it was founded on Liberal principles?

Our country's principles haven't changed much. Stebo's right, many of them were conservative (in the American meaning of the word). But I think arguing that we were, as a whole, more "conservative" overstates the point. Remember that the Federalists, today's liberals (in the American meaning of the word), were quite prominent. They favored greater centralization and a stronger Federal Government.

And Stebo's right about another part of the issue: even Thomas Jefferson, probably the epitome of a Republican (originally and now), acknowledged that his ideals become irrelevant in a non-agrarian society. And early America wasn't all agrarian, which is why federalist thought developed. So, as American becomes more urban on average, you're going to see it become more liberal, on average.

But I think the single greatest lie perpetuated by right-leaning media outlets is that conservative thought is somehow more true to the Constitution than liberal thought is, in order to say that liberals are somehow less American. The whole reason we continue to have debates about Constitutional meaning is because it was made as vague as it needed to be in order to be accepted by early America's liberal and conservative leaders, who were probably as strongly opposed to one another's ideals as we are now.

America's foundation - the Constitution - isn't only conservative or liberal. If it had been one or the other, it wouldn't have been our Constitution, or our foundation.

this post made me moist.

[IBCoupe]

this post made me moist.

I'll be thirty-five years old come the 2020 Election, and eligible for the Presidency. I think I found my stump speech.

[IBCoupe]

Here's an example of how vague the Constitution is:

Sen. Ron Paul will tell you that the Department of Education is unconstitutional. He will tell you that, if you take a look at the enumerated powers of Congress set forth in Art. I, Sec. 8 of the Constitution, you will find no permission for the establishment of national educational standards.

And I'm going to tell you that you very clearly do. And we're both going to be right, because we each understand the word "necessary" in a different way. Article I, Section 8, Clause 18 says that Congress shall have the power "to make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers." Congressman Paul will tell you that "necessary" means that Congress only has the power to create laws where, otherwise, the enumerated power would cease to effectively exist. He's got Associate Supreme Court Justice Thomas, among others, on his side.

I'm going to tell you that "necessary" means that Congress has the power to enact laws that effectuate the full carrying out of its assigned duties in those powers. And I've got nearly 200 years of Court precedent on my side. And then I'm going to point you to Article I, Section 8, Clauses 12 and 16 - Congress shall have the power "to raise and support Armies" and "to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia," on the theory that to have an effective, well-supported Army and a disciplined Militia, one needs at least a minimally-educated public to form them. Congressman Paul just doesn't see it my way, because without a national education standard, Congress can still, theoretically, do all those things.

And because the Constitution doesn't define terms like "necessary," we're both right. And it's meant to be that way - Thomas Jefferson and James Madison would probably agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Paul. On the other hand, George Washington leans heavily my way (but doesn't want to pick sides), while Alexander Hamilton and John Adams are squarely in my camp.