Deatschwerks Injectors

[WesQ]

I thought Forum members would be interested in a recent conversation I had with David Deatsch. According to David, their Phase 2 Q45, 550cc and soon to be offered 740cc purple-top injectors are new injectors, not remanufactured ones. The 270cc red-top injectors are remanufactured, used ones. The new Phase 2s and 550s are made by a third party supplier to Deatschwerks' specifications. David would not identify the manufacture. He did say they test/match every new injector received from their supplier. I wonder if the supplier is in China. How else can he buy, individually test and sell 8 new, phase 2 injectors for about half the list price of 8 new BWDs.

David said the OEM injectors suffer two modes of failure. First, the Phase 1s were not designed for use in the US and failed because they are not compatible with our E10 gas. According to David this was fixed with the Phase 2 injectors. However, there is a second failure mode confirmed by Nissan engineers that affects both the Phase 1s and 2s. The varnish used to coat the injector coils breaks down under normal under-hood temps. David said he talked with Nissan engineers who said thay were able to duplicate the problem. They tried to fix it for the Phase 2s but were not entirely successful. The Phase 2s coils still fail due to bad varnish but not at the same rate as the Phase 1s. Because of this problem, David said Deatschwerks recently started useing new coils with thermally resistant, 'good' varnish in their remanufactured and new injectors.

I bought 8 'new' Phase 2 injectors with good coils and am in the process of installing them. We'll see how they run and hold up.

[Q45tech]

My 4 new oem phase 1 have now completed 24 months of life since the transplant .........still spot on in resistance range.

Funny both phase 1 and 2 failed after at least 14 years all beginning within a few weeks of each other on dozens of Q.

Failed varnish [insulation] would show up as a DECREASE in resistance since coil turns would short out?
Never seen or heard of a lower than oem resistance used injector!

[WesQ]

Yes, an interesting question. I asked David D how specifically an injector with bad varnish fails. He didn’t really know nor did he get any details from the Nissan engineers. So I can only guess at possible failure mechanisms. As the varnish deteriorates, the coil windings will eventually short. If voltage is constant, current draw will quickly increase as resistance drops. Since, heat is proportional to the square of the current, even a small increase in current can cause heat to build faster than the coil can dissipate it. In addition, shorting will disrupt the magnetic field affecting the ability of the injector to meter gas. As I understand, the ECM will adjust pulse width for that bank of injectors in an attempt to maintain proper air/fuel ratio, which will add more heat the failing injector. If the heat is high and local enough, it could burn out the coil windings resulting in an infinite resistance when measured with an ohm meter. However, that does not explain cases where resistance gradually increases. My #1 injector was electrically open, but #7 measured 149ohms. So, in some cases, maybe the shorting and resultant increase in heat is not high or local enough to burn out the coil, but enough to ‘cook’ the coil and its internal connections over time. The high temp cooking may gradually oxidize or semi-open the junction/connector between the end of the coil wire and the injector’s harness connectors leading to an increase in resistance. Anyway, this is all supposition. We should get a 6-pack and take a few failed injectors apart.

[Q45tech]

I would suggest you review electrical engineering fundamentials and coils/solenoids in particular.

Same with bank to bank ecu adjustment up to ± 20% simultaneously per bank.

Why I always warn to view adaptive learn parameters as a 80% or 120% shows something is wrong vs the nominal 90-110%.

Xray the injectors then enlarge the negatives will show the problem every time..............many modern dentists have new in mouth electronic sensors hooked to computer for realtime xrays [no film to develop] just a nice big data file in very high resolution.

PS: I discussed all this back in 2002-2003 and provided links to CAFE documents where Nissan warned California about Ethanol years ago. Nissan stated phase 2 would not last much beyond warranty [70-100k] in presence of E10.

Interestingly top feed injectors don't react to E10 but who knows about future E15-20?

[WesQ]

Sorry, I forgot to include the reference from one of my old text books; Classical Electrodynamics, Jackson, 5.5 Differential Equations of Magnetostatics and Ampere’s Law and 5.5 Vector Potential and Magnetic Induction for a Circular Current Loop lay the theory for solenoids/coils.

[Q45tech]

Remember the duty cycle is never more than 50% at 4,000 rpm then it goes lower down to 40%.
Idle [duty cycle] is less than 10%, < 12% if learning is maxed. Even though the peak current finally gets to 1.0 ampere the ramp up is long at idle and even cruise.

The point is all that gasoline flow by in volume with E10 absorbs the 1>1.1 watts [corrected for duty cycle] that an injector could put out under any common non acceleration condition.

Now injector temperature when the engine is shut off after a hot run can easily boil the residual fuel in rail and the varnish might reach 250F.

T3 saved all the injectors replaced for me to throw away after I've read the resistance in over 370 tested, zero injectors had less than 11 ohms.

Many times sales and mamagement will give technical answers which have little basis in reality. Unproven theories and wishes.

[DeatschWerks]

Hello gentlemen,

I have not spoken with Dave in particular on this thread and do not have all the full tech info that he would be able to relay, but might be able to clarify a couple things.

Our Nissan side feed injectors in 370cc (OE replacement for the Q45) and 550cc sizes are no longer made with remanufactured injectors. Only new injectors that we have produced to our specifications. They are not made in China, they are made in the US.

We also just put up a special on NICO for Q45 owners for our new phase 2 370's and adapter kits for those with phase 1 injectors.

Chris

[Q451990]

Chris,

Not sure if you can tell us, but are these the BWD/Standard injectors?

Heath

[DeatschWerks]

Heath,

I can tell you that our injectors are manufactured, through contract, in the US to our specifications. The source of which I cannot disclose, sorry.

[Q451990]

I can't imagine there are that many suppliers of these injectors in the US, but I can certainly understand not being able to disclose the source - noncompete clauses and all.

Can you tell us your specifications? I have been running the BWD phase 2s for about 20 months with good results. You may recall that I sent them to you guys to test them and we found that the set I purchased were fairly well matched and had very similar characteristics to the OEM set you compared them with, but not as good as OEM. With your data I was able to match them within each bank so that in theory the ECU could adjust the pulse width if they needed to.

In any case I think what you're doing is exciting in that you have the ability to take a large inventory of them and then better match sets of 8 to get us closer to an OEM matched set! Assuming your specs. are very similar to OEM, I would definitely recommend that anyone that's looking for injectors to buy a full set from you - even the regular price is excellent at about $80 each.

Heath

[DeatschWerks]

Heath,

As far as specifications are concerned, I can give you some general specifics about the OEM replacements. When we contracted with our manufacturer the injectors to be made for us must fit like OEM, have similar flow characteristics as OEM, like this Nissan 370cc actually flowing closer to 410cc instead of what it's name would suggest, and that it's latency values are similar to that of the OEM injector.

My position here is sales and community relations, but I do have access to our people of technical expertise if there is ever a question that I cannot answer (...and there will be!). So, if there is any information beyond the general specifics I posted above, shoot me a PM or ask them in a reply and I will try to get those to you, and the rest of the community, as quickly as I can.

Thanks again!

Chris

[dsagers]

Chris

I'm interested in stepping up to the 550 cc injectors, and would make the necessary adjustments in the ECU.

Any problem with the 550 cc injectors being fast enough to maintain a smooth idle? Can the injector open and close fast enough to supply just the small amount of fuel needed at idle?