Dealer's "High Performance" argument - frustrated

[RCHarris]

I've been a car guy for 40 plus years. When a dealer tells me something about a car that I know to be wrong it just drives me crazy. I have been trying to get my dealer to do some diagnostics on my EX35 because of its horrendous gas mileage and odd accelerative behavior - it surges and delays under hard acceleration - very much like a bad case of turbo lag.

The service manager has told me on two occasions the car is operating within spec and my mileage (combined 16 mpg) is understandable because after all I am driving a "luxury high performance car". Give me a break!

What exactly about the EX35 is "high performance"? I know high performance and under no circumstances could this car be termed high performance. 1. It is a 4,000 pound car (AWD) being motivated by a 297 hp engine using premium gasoline. 297 hp by itself is not high performance. 2. The engine is advanced and technologically cutting edge - that's great, but not high performance. 3. It handles no better than a Honda Accord. I own one, I know. 4. It is luxurious but that is not high performance, just luxury appointments that do not contribute to the performance of the car at all. 5. The on the road statistics do not work either. The car does 0-60 mph in 6.5 seconds. That is not high performance, it is average for today's 6 cylinder sedans. 6. Its top speed is governed and is no better than my wife's Prius - high performance? 7. It 's handling in the corners is very good, for an SUV . But it can't hold a candle to a high performance car - think BMW 3 series here.

I love my car and I enjoy driving it very much. But when I have an issue with a brand new car I expect honesty and genuine efforts on the part of the dealer to address the issues. I keep reading here and listening to my dealer write off the complaints by calling the car a high performance vehicle, as if that is a good reason for poor performance. Sorry, I just do not buy that argument! I'm frustrated!!!

RCH

[RCHarris]

I forgot to mention, here's the Infiniti dealer senior tech's response to the ongoing surging/turbo lag acceleration problem: "well, the accelerator works by fly-by-wire (no direct mechanical linkage) and it takes a bit of time for the engine management system (computer) to interpret your accelerator pedal input. So there can be a lag time from the time you press down and the time the car responds" Ummm.... ok.RCH

[specialist23]

to be honest, what the tech is telling you is true. some nissan/infiniti's have always had some lag. on the other hand, the g's and the fx's that i've owned, have not. you can't purchase a "station wagon" and expect it to handle like a sedan. it just can't, obviously.

the engine is considered high performance by many standards. just because to you they might not be, doesn't mean that it isn't considered such by the rest of the market. to further my point, which vehicle of the 3 that you have mentioned has the highest horsepower?

now with that said, don't get me wrong. the fuel economy in this vehicle sucks BAD and the throttle response is absolutely horibble, especially compared to the g sedan that i get as a loaner vehicle. BUT it is a "station wagon" and so it is what it is.

[Sentientbydesign]

Here are a few things to consider.

1) The dealer might just not be willing to help you out. Might be time to find another one.

2) You're moving a 4k lb car with AWD via a high-output V6. Fuel economy is going to suck. I'm sorry.

3) I MIGHT be able to help you with the throttle lag. Actually, I'd like to do an experiment...

If you're willing. I'll need you to remain "ignorant" for my test to work lol. If you've already looked into grounding kits or have seen my Fab Market thread, then disregard. If you haven't, then don't go looking at either and we might be able to improve something for you.

[AWGD8]

I think the EX35 engine is in a category of High performance bec. it can

extract a 297 HP in a 3.5 Liter displacement. You can only feel that extra

HORESPOWER on the top end. If you notice, driving at 80+ MPH seems

less strained than any 3.5 Liters cars that I had driven. If you want a fast

0 -60 car, then you`re driving the wrong car. Have you heard about the

DS and Manual mode? I think they put that in purpose to remove the LAG

your complaining about. How many cars nowadays that has 2 intake

sucking more air under the hood? What about the coating in the piston for

less friction wear (Low-friction molybdenum-coated pistons )

Where else can you find a close to 50/50 front/back weight

ratio? What about a 100% RWD or split front and rear traction?

I consider the EX35 total package same as the 3 series BMW. The interior

alone beats the 3 series Bimmer. Why would the 335i BMW uses a twin

turbo? so that it can keep up with the G37S ALL MOTOR. That only tells us

one thing. VQ engine is HIGH PERFORMANCE ENGINE.

I`m sorry to tell you that your EX35 is way better than a Camry V6.

Have you seen the water base paint Toyota is using nowadays?

[gloa2000]

and they have GT-R forum somewhere above.

[jmess]

EX in normal drive will up-shift/short-shift to 2nd at mild throttle angles at say 10-15 MPH. If you then start to apply more gas it will take a second to down shift back to first then off you go. This behavior is more pronounced at lower speeds but the same thing can happen in higher gears. The computer is upshifting to reduce fuel use.

If you start to accelerate and the box down shifts and you then let off the gas it will hold the gear sometimes for a second before it upshifts again.

I have yet to drive a car with electronic throttle and smart automatic that you can't find times when you disagree with what the computer is doing.

You should be able to take a drive in a service loaner EX and see if it acts differently than your car. If you find a difference then you should take somebody from the dealer for a ride in your car and show them how your car acts differently.

[specialist23]

although i will state one thing in defense of the TS, it does NOT feel like 297. not even close. even compared to a comparable g sedan, it's so much more sluggish at all levels of the power band. handling obviously is a completely different aspect.

[rubbersidedown]

Do you have a grounding kit(s) for the EX for sale, and photos of the installation? Thanks,

[Sentientbydesign]

Do you have a grounding kit(s) for the EX for sale, and photos of the installation? Thanks,

No, but that was part of the point. I want someone who has NO CLUE what "potential" benefits come along with a grounding kit to test one out for me.

The problem is that just about every performance enthusiast knows about them so... yeah.

Which engine does the EX have in it? The DE or HR? I've got setups for both that should fit.

[rubbersidedown]

Did a bit of research, and found this analysis:

http://www.tprmag.com/issue/8/8_elec_stab.shtml

Also, do you have any dyno tests on any of your kits?

[Sentientbydesign]

Thanks for negating my plans

No dyno results. Most of the gains aren't in power, their in responsiveness.

[rubbersidedown]

Unintented, I assure you - just trying to learn about the technology.

[Sentientbydesign]

Unintented, I assure you - just trying to learn about the technology.

Email me and I'd be happy to have you as a tester.

[SteveTheTech]

There are many things that will alter your fuel econ. I have seen EXs go anywhere from 13 to 22-23 mpgs it's all relevant and estimates are just that. If your car is not like the loaner, remember that everyone drives those cars like they are not theirs and their adopted shift learning knows heavy throttle driving. Although the transmission shift logic is set more on the side of economy, as pointed out above it's still a big heavy car with allot of technology and a decent size footprint.

I agree with the OP as there is not much about the EX that signifies high performance. Although the lag in throttle response is not noticable to the majority the speed at which the data is transmitted improves with every new model. The 09 FX50 actually uses a CAN BUS connector to more efficently direct signals. The 08s were quick and even using an oscilloscope on both the APP (accelerator pedal postion sensor) and ECU commanded throttle response is in the uSec range. These cars think and react much faster than the average reaction time of a human (~0.8 sec, I think) in that span of time the computer can complete many tests and tasks.

Did a bit of research, and found this analysis:

http://www.tprmag.com/issue/8/8_elec_stab.shtml

[rubbersidedown]

Thanks, but I think you may want someone with more mechanical chops than I have, like SteveTheTech.

[EX35_bernard]

Look at it in a different perspective. My bother has has an 07-08 FX35 was surprised to see his same engine on my smaller EX! I know theyre probably tuned differently but its still pretty good considering this engine used to be on the G and FX. And soon it will have the 3.7 liter in it already available in Europe which even has more power. Most competitors in the same class have 240-260 hp range.

Coming from a 130 hp mazda with cd/radio only, no traction control, 2 airbags, no active restraints, etc (list keeps going) this Ex pretty good performance for me. So its pretty relatve I guess. Yes it gargles gas but hey, I knew that coming in.

[CaribMon71]

What is this grounding kit? What does it do for an EX 35?

[RioD007]

All I can say this... Some Magazine Rated the EX as the 6th fastest SUV and when i filled mine with 100 octane and pulled out the spare and most of the backseat and took it to a infiniti track day i was passing g37's down the straight and seeing upwards of 130mph on the straight

[SteveTheTech]

My bother has has an 07-08 FX35 was surprised to see his same engine on my smaller EX!

Actually your brother may find it amusing to know that the EX actually uses the same engine as the 07 G sedan, with electromagnetic exhaust cam timing, whereas his FX only uses intake timing advancement. The EX also has the redesigned dual intake upper plenum, with dual air filters.

Both the FX and the EX are great vehicles and I would find it hard to choose between the two. If there were an EX37Sport or maybe a EX50Sport with some of the new FX technology I would lean more toward the EX (I really do like the size) although the EX is a little more station wagony.

All I can say this... Some Magazine Rated the EX as the 6th fastest SUV and when i filled mine with 100 octane and pulled out the spare and most of the backseat and took it to a infiniti track day i was passing g37's down the straight and seeing upwards of 130mph on the straight

Welcome to Nico Please tell me you have more pics. I love the avatar shot of your EX on the line. IOSs track days seem like something fun. I don't think any other dealers do, it looks like a great time.

[dividedhighw]

"Infiniti Track Day" ... you mean organized by Infiniti? I've been to both BMW and Audi ones, but never Infiniti. Any in Canada?

Just curious - is your EX, FWD or AWD?

Also, if you're tracking your car, you might consider defeating the electronic speed limiter.

Cheers,David

[EX35_bernard]

Actually your brother may find it amusing to know that the EX actually uses the same engine as the 07 G sedan, with electromagnetic exhaust cam timing, whereas his FX only uses intake timing advancement. The EX also has the redesigned dual intake upper plenum, with dual air filters.

Both the FX and the EX are great vehicles and I would find it hard to choose between the two. If there were an EX37Sport or maybe a EX50Sport with some of the new FX technology I would lean more toward the EX (I really do like the size) although the EX is a little more station wagony.



Welcome to Nico Please tell me you have more pics. I love the avatar shot of your EX on the line. IOSs track days seem like something fun. I don't think any other dealers do, it looks like a great time.

Steve it might be a good idea to start a thread talking about the EX's engine technology same as you described above. Information that we wouldn't find or read anywhere like this makes me even more excited about our cars! Plus it's a nice change from all the negativity on the boards lately about the EX w/c I'm getting tired of.

[ayap888]

Since you have the AWD ... that car performs at around 6.5 - 6.7 seconds. I suppose I agree that that's not 'high performance'.

But if we are talking about the EX RWD .. that's another story. Based on two tests I've read, the RWD can go 0 - 60 MPH in 5.7 - 5.8 seconds. Now that's high performance for the $30,000 - $50,000 car market, and the dealer is correct on that for the rear-wheel drive EX.

Now of course, if you're talking about another category of sports cars in the $100,000 - $300,000 range doing 3.5 - 4.3 seconds 0-60. That's another story. And that's not called high performance. That's called "ultra-high performance".

[RioD007]

"Infiniti Track Day" ... you mean organized by Infiniti? I've been to both BMW and Audi ones, but never Infiniti. Any in Canada?

Just curious - is your EX, FWD or AWD?

Also, if you're tracking your car, you might consider defeating the electronic speed limiter.

Cheers,David

Mine's RWD... The Ex does not come in FWD... only Rear and All Wheel Drive

[gloa2000]

Mine's RWD... The Ex does not come in FWD... only Rear and All Wheel Drive

I guess he meant FWD in Four Wheel Drive, not in Front Wheel Drive.

[dividedhighw]

Sorry for the confusion ... I goofed and pressed the "F" key just below the "R" that I was targeting.

Honestly guys, I do know the difference between FWD, RWD and AWD ... at least that's my story and I'm sticking to it!!

[As a matter of fact, I'm all too painfully aware that not all AWD's are created equal!! ]

Cheers,David