Crank Collar Pics

[l0nestar]

Could somone please upload a picture of the side profile (for thickness reference) of a crank-collar for me? Or just tell me how thick it is. Or conversely, how much material should I remove from the crank-shaft?

Thanks!

[minivan_don]

this is not somethin you will attempt with a metal file and a few beers ... for the little machine shop fee's, its not a blow to your wallet and you cant avoid it as the crank needs to be rebalanced after the collar install. the Jun collar i bought came with instructions with some measurements - i havent looked at it as its also writen in Japanese but apparently the measurements are universally readable

[Darius]

You NEED to be precise with this. It isnt something you can just do in your basement.

[Booztd 3]

You NEED to be precise with this. It isnt something you can just do in your basement.

LOL, yes, tolerances and clearances are everything on a rotating assembly

[l0nestar]

Woah woah woah guys, I'm not attempting to do this myself. I'm going to a machine shop tomorrow. I was just interested for a reference. I'm taking my crank, oil pump, and girdle with me there. I know that unless you are a professional, a rotating assembly is nothing to mess with! Uh... thanks for the help?

On a side note, what bearings did everyone use, where did you get them, and how much? Yes I have been searching, I found that the ACL's are around $300. Looking into getting OEM instead.

[l0nestar]

I see that Compulsive Horsepower has the King Bearings. Does anyone know how they compare to the OEM ones? Or if anybody has the OEM bearings?

Ref: zerothread?id=185510

[minivan_don]

Woah woah woah guys, I'm not attempting to do this myself. I'm going to a machine shop tomorrow. I was just interested for a reference. I'm taking my crank, oil pump, and girdle with me there. I know that unless you are a professional, a rotating assembly is nothing to mess with! Uh... thanks for the help?

On a side note, what bearings did everyone use, where did you get them, and how much? Yes I have been searching, I found that the ACL's are around $300. Looking into getting OEM instead.

you never know what some people have in mind ... and we're just making sure you dont attempt a home version of crank machining... duct tape cant fix this one lol

look on ebay for acl bearings ... they can be had for less than $200 delivered

[l0nestar]

don,

Hey man, no prob. I understand about people being 'creative at home'. Thanks for the info!

[Darius]

heh that's what I thought too. I was like nooo don't do it!

I bought STD sized King Bearings from Jim Caldwell at CompulsiveHP, and he is awesome to work with. Very responsive to questions etc. The bearings come in standard sizes and plus sizes (for those of you like Oprah) if you have to have your crank worked more than just a micropolish. You need to be very accurate in your journal measurements because a slight error might make you think you need thicker bearings which would cut into the oil film thickness and could cause binding, spun bearings, etc. Read a thread having "King Bearings" in the title and created by me. It will cover a lot of basic questions I had back then.

I also posted the instructions for the JUN crank collar installation somewhere so if you search enough, you're bound to run into it.

[l0nestar]

Darius,

Cool man. I have the JUN collar installation page in PDF format already. I will probably order the bearings from Jim, do I need to order the connecting-rod bearings as well? My bearings have little wear on them, but I will replace them nonetheless. I need to post the pictures of them. maybe in a bit. The shop who does the machining, I do not know if they will do the balancing. I'm debating the micro-polish, what are the advantages of it? It was not much, I remember that. Again, thanks Darius!

Note: I tried searching for _anything_ created by you and did not find anything related to bearings. I did post the link above to the thread created by Jim @CHP about King Bearings, you posted a bit of info in there as well. This is what you are thinking of, maybe?

[Evo_bill]

I don't understand why everyone thinks replacing the crank pump drive collar and a N1 oil pump is going to "fix" the oil pump breaking issue.

Why replace the drive collar if your just putting a ****ty pump back on the block?the issue remains. ****N1 pump is totally different from a nismo oil pump.****biggest difference price.N1 = anywhere from 160.00 - 400.00 bucks depends where you buy from.nismo = 750.00 - 1250.00 bucks again depends where you buy from.

The reason for the difference is that a N1 oil pump is the same as a stock pump with the exception of having a stiffer pump spring, thus it still has as high of potential of breaking. A Nismo oil pump actually has a collar made from a much stronger metal, along with better springs, higher pressure and flow much more then stock or N1.

Anyways, I just don't understand why people ask "what should I do" my answer would be upgrade your oiling system, along with a good pump. i.e. not stock or N1

btw, this is recommenced to those of you that go pass redline.

[RB_Dreamin]

king only offers 2 sizes? thats a little rough isnt it?

how do you get your oil clearances to match without machining your crank to fit the bearing?

i wouldn't think its safe to buy a pack of standard size and just polishing your crank. unless your crank has all the same journal sizes already and all of them match with the king bearings...

oem and nismo have 7 main bearing sizes and 3 rod bearing sizes.

[Evo_bill]

king only offers 2 sizes? thats a little rough isnt it?

how do you get your oil clearances to match without machining your crank to fit the bearing?

i wouldn't think its safe to buy a pack of standard size and just polishing your crank. unless your crank has all the same journal sizes already and all of them match with the king bearings...

oem and nismo have 7 main bearing sizes and 3 rod bearing sizes.

I think you posted in the wrong thread

[l0nestar]

I don't understand why everyone thinks replacing the crank pump drive collar and a N1 oil pump is going to "fix" the oil pump breaking issue.

The reason for the difference is that a N1 oil pump is the same as a stock pump with the exception of having a stiffer pump spring, thus it still has as high of potential of breaking.

I believe Matt @ GTR Shop would have something different to say. He made a post with all three pumps next to each other and dis-assembled. There is more of a difference between the OEM and N1 than just 'a spring'. I would normally waste the 15-20 minutes to find it, but I am taking my wife out to dinner tonight.

[RB_Dreamin]

I think you posted in the wrong thread

nope, wrong again. i was responding to what Darius posted about bearings.

you talk as if a true oil pump solution isn't going to cost 3-4k, when in actuality you are too cheap to even buy forged pistons.

the reason other pumps are offered is because they have bigger gears and flow more. you will probably be worse off if you buy a nismo/jun/greddy/hks pump and throw it in with a good collar. it will flow a ton more and you'll probably end up sucking your pan dry or starving it. with your nismo pump, do you plan on putting in a head restrictor? adding external drains to the back of your head to the pan? enlarging your block oil drains? adding baffling to your pan? adding a swinging oil pickup? to most people, the answer to those is NO. maybe to you with the money saved on pistons the answer to all of those is yes.

most people want to have a realistic fix, and that is getting a new pump which is FINE (oem or n1) for sustained 8.5k rpms. its a good replacement because it is cost effective, it works, and it replaces a pump where the drive gear is probably already dented from years of driving on the short snout. the oem pumps just dont "blow up" for no reason. high mileage and unecessary wear from a bad drive causes it.

you talk as if you will have head work/cams to flow beyond 8.5k rpm too. but then again i forgot you'll have 700+ whp
Modified by RB_Dreamin at 1:49 PM 2/2/2007

[Darius]

RB_Dreamin - King has several sizes (as does ACL), but the oil film thickness specified in the FSM has a relatively large variance compared to the journal and bearing sizes themselves. Therefore, there is little need to produce 7 different sizes like OEM. Just aim for the larger end of the oil film thickness and you will be good to go.

l0nestar - I think that was the post I was referring to, but I have to go back and check.

Evo_bill - Please don't post misinformation like that. It makes you look bad and opens yourself up for criticism.

First, this has been covered quite thoroughly on several boards and in numerous threads. The oil pumps do not "break". The oil pump drive flank on the crankshaft on most RB25 and some RB26 motors is not long enough to engage the entire flank on the interior radius of the oil pump drive. There are pictures of this everywhere if you don't know what I'm referring to. And yes it does solve the problem or people wouldn't be doing it and JUN wouldn't be making the collars in the first place.

Second, RB_Dreamin was responding to l0nestar's other question about bearings...not posted in the wrong thread.

[l0nestar]

Nice RB_Dreamin!

I'm going with the N1 simply because I'm using an external oil-cooler. I thought about restricters in the head, but I don't think I will need them. Motor is in a DD that (at the most) will be 300whp. (after that, in a year or 2, it will become a dedicated track sl00t.)

[l0nestar]

Thanks for the info Darius!

[Evo_bill]

I wasn't looking for a fight, I was just simply saying I didn't know why people buy N1 if its not going to help the situation. According to RB motoring N1 is a stock pump with a different drive collar.

Btw, I don't need pistons for my realistic daily driving hp goal.I have ported and port matched the oil returns on the block and head.And my 700whp comment was about something totally different, wheel hop. And actually I've heard of someone misshifting and killing their N1 pump during a launch.
Modified by Evo_bill at 1:39 PM 2/2/2007

[Carl H]

you'll find that with nissan bearings the tollerance between 'grades' is so rediculously close that most of the time its hard to get the EXACT bearing...i used std size nsk bearings in mine when i rebuilt it and it was well within tolerances...

[StricNyne]

no offense but i live in the real world, where normal people cannot afford to buy 1200 oil pumps, and fully build blocks i bought the n1 pump because for my pwr goals it will be rocking and good enough for me !!!

[RB_Dreamin]

I wasn't looking for a fight, I was just simply saying I didn't know why people buy N1 if its not going to help the situation. According to RB motoring N1 is a stock pump with a different drive collar.

Btw, I don't need pistons for my realistic daily driving hp goal.I have ported and port matched the oil returns on the block and head.And my 700whp comment was about something totally different, wheel hop. And actually I've heard of someone misshifting and killing their N1 pump during a launch.

Modified by Evo_bill at 1:39 PM 2/2/2007

the truth is it DOES help the situation. and a more expensive pump with just larger gears is supposed to not die from a misshift on a launch?

[Evo_bill]

the truth is it DOES help the situation. and a more expensive pump with just larger gears is supposed to not die from a misshift on a launch?

well, you wouldn't have to worry that it will be "in my eyes" the worst thing to let go as Jun oil pump is pruven to be good up to 10k rpm. I'd rather puting that 700 bucks in piston work toward a more reliable pump. And also This is stright off the Jun web site... your concerns about the oil starvation issues. "HIGH FLOW OIL PUMPS

JUN developed High flow oil pumps for the engine which may become lack of oil quantity when high revolution. With a tuning engine overusing high revolution, lack of oil becomes a serious problem. We designed new gears in the oil pumps to increase flowing oil quantity. Use our oil pump before the trouble occurred around turbines or crank."


Modified by Evo_bill at 2:32 PM 2/2/2007

[Darius]

The lack of oil does not come from the pumps. It comes from too much oil pooling in the head and a lack in the sump. Installing a high flow pump is only going to exacerbate the issue without doing other things to improve drainage from the head.

[RB_Dreamin]

well, you wouldn't have to worry that it will be "in my eyes" the worst thing to let go as Jun oil pump is pruven to be good up to 10k rpm. I'd rather puting that 700 bucks in piston work toward a more reliable pump. And also This is stright off the Jun web site... your concerns about the oil starvation issues. "HIGH FLOW OIL PUMPS

JUN developed High flow oil pumps for the engine which may become lack of oil quantity when high revolution. With a tuning engine overusing high revolution, lack of oil becomes a serious problem. We designed new gears in the oil pumps to increase flowing oil quantity. Use our oil pump before the trouble occurred around turbines or crank."

Modified by Evo_bill at 2:32 PM 2/2/2007

clearly you're not getting the point here. what does underlining JUNs statement have anything to do with this? just do everyone a favor and save yourself some embarrassment... stop posting until you're ready to put up your 700+whp dyno

[StricNyne]

i heard the same thing so i bought oil orifice !!!! but i did hear most high hp stock block rb's die from spun bearing (well 20's die from melted pistons, 25s piston ring lands like i did, and 26s on spun bearings and one of those is oil related can you guess which one ?)

[Carl H]

lol @ this thread.no matter which way you cut it a collar is almost always needed on any rb motor that is going to see either serious track work or high hp/revs.just because a pump moves more oil doesnt mean a damn thing...the more oil it moves the more ends up in the head, and that ofcourse means there is none in the sump.without collaring your r32 rb26 crank that 800$ jun oil pump is as good as dead; if you read their website they say it can only be used with a long snout crank or a collared crank.

[Evo_bill]

Here is a start. http://www.putfile.com/evobill

[Carl H]

good to see you collared your crank but why did you put the setscrew on the curved portion of the drive?iirc they are supposed to go on the flats.

[Darius]

I am pretty sure mine came with the set screw pre-drilled in the rounded area of the collar. I will double check but I'm pretty sure.

I double checked my picture file and my set screw is in the same spot.
Modified by Darius at 8:19 AM 2/5/2007