cost of turbo
sil80drifter wrote:I don't know why you need gauges that you bought. All you "really" need are: water temp, oil temp and boost. Reasoning: do not need oil pressure because if ur leaking oil, the temp will go up much sooner than pressure go down/up due to lack of oil. Fuel pressure is good to know if ur running an fpr, otherwise it's useless (and FPRs suck in my opinion, they pose undue stain on fuel lines and injectors), cuz it's either around 40psi or it's not, and then u have problems anyway, which you should fix before u drive. EGT temps are useless, you will know if ur engine is running hot with a water temp gauge, and unless u drive and tune (hard to do, in a manual car), or have problems with ur timing/air-fuel ratio (which you should solve with a few dyno runs, not a EGT gauge) you really don't need EGT. Most people buy a huge amount of gauges, but never really look at them. The crucial ones actually show u if something is about to go wrong with the car. The rest are pointless, or just for show. This again goes for most of the turboed cars out there which are daily drivers and occasional autoX or track participants. If you are a professional tuner and need to have everything down to the last milibar and micro second, then u'll need to go digital anyway. I don't understand how an oil pressure gauge could have saved money and time (if there was an oil temp gauge present, if there wasn't, well... sucks). Again, water temp (to know if ur overheating), oil temp (same reason, and also a good indicator of how the turbo is affecting your system), and boost gauge (so you know ur not boosting 15 instead of 10).That's pretty much it for most of the people on this forum who want to turbo their KA. Yes, later if you're curious about what other pressure do or what pressure drops exist in ur system, or similar things, and you have money to satisfy that curiosity, then go ahead, buy 20 million gauges and stick them everywhere, and don't forget the 7" tach that goes to 10,000rpm, cuz u'll sure be needing that too.
That's 150 bucks AT THE MOST from autometer.
sil80
Oh man, I can't believe you're actually serious about everything you just wrote. Man. For anyone reading, every single thing he mentioned is absolute foolishness. You don't need oil pressure? You can derive EGT from water temp? What the **** are you thinking? Digital gauges are the most accurate? What?!?!?! Why does the gauge itself have anything to do with accuracy? Shouldn't you be talking about the sending units?
As a simple justification for other readers who are wondering why I spent the money on the gauges that I did, I will explain. I am going with an untested fuel/timing manager, the GReddy emanage. I will need a lot of tuning to get the emanage running correctly. I decided to purchase the gauges to let me do this, all top of the line gauges that are accurate as possible. I could have gone to the dyno to tune, but at $120 an hour, I felt that I would rather have nice gauges then dyno time. My choice.
Bottom line, those going with a JWT ECU, you don't need the gauges I bought. For those going with an emanage or standalone, you better bite the bullet and invest in some quality engine monitoring devices.
-john
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sil80drifter
- Posts: 1313
- Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:53 am
- Car: 1990 240SX Hatch
Grandpa, is your turbo water cooled? So EGTs go up, what does that mean? Your turbo is pushing hotter exhaust out than usual. The water which is cooling your turbo will get hotter as well. As will the oil temp, and if it happens that you know the limit of how hot oil and water should get in your car before bad things happen, you'll know to pull over or put it in neutral, so that it gets a chance to cool down.
Tell my WHY exactly anyone would need anything beyond 3 (maybe 4 if you are REALLY antsy to know your oil or fuel pressures) gauges? Don't knock me for saying that very few people will need all the gauges you've bought. It was YOUR choice, that is correct, but not everyone should follow your example, simply because very few people are using E-Manage. I know a few people here who have bought gauges for their NA cars which weren't even pushing it. Some bought dozens for their turbo cars and don't even know what they do, and never watch them. For most of us, who are usually somewhat new to turboing, the gauges should warn us of any dangerous situation that may occur to the engine, and VERY few will actually use them for tuning. You get your car turboed, you put whatever exhaust and mods on it, you go dyno tune it. There are few things you can tune there except for fuel/air and timing. That's it. I can understand why YOU may have needed those gauges, but again you have the right ones in your setup, AND you're running wideband, so you ARE one of the people who would need them.
I was more referring to j92s's setup, where he has an oil pressure, boost, and EGT gauge. I think he should have gotten oil temp as well, and water temp. The stock water temp gauge sucks badly, because it's non linear and very inaccurate. The oil temp gauges is also very crucial to knowing what's going on. A/F, unless it's wideband is completely useless. It bounces back and forth, and if the car should ever run lean, it won’t tell you much, until it’s too late for you to do anything, because you will either start knocking, or the motor will blow. Unless you have an A/F gauge that shows you your progressive ratios IN NUMBERS (14, 13, 12, etc), as rpm's go up or down, it's of very little use except for "nice glowy thingy on my dash".
By digital I meant gauges that are used in applications similar to NASCAR/Formula 1, that don't show 5psi, but 5.504 psi, so you know where you're standing, which are also monitored by some logging software so you can see the actual psi and rpm relations, together with A/F, pressures, etc. THIS would be real tuning information. How many people on this board need that? You're going with E-Manage and wideband, that's great. One other person is going with wideband. Good for them. Maybe there are 2-3 more. Add another 5 with standalones (IF that). That's about it. Most of us need to know when to stop mashing the pedal, or when our car starts overheating, instead of how many degrees of timing to retard when we want more boost (btw, there is only so much timing retard can do, do NOT use it as a complete substitute to more boost, you'll lose more than you'll gain when you go too far).
You can only tune your stuff so much by yourself. A dyno will always prove superior in ANY tuning application, unless you're a race proven mechanics team and even they use dynos). Gauges are in no event a complete substitute for a dyno. In fact, they complement it nicely when you're really serious about getting every bit of power from your car. Yes, they can get expensive, but you CAN get group deals, and all you need is about an hour (considering you don't have other problems which you can take care of yourself) to get your car in a very good shape, power wise. I've been at dynos for 50 bucks an hour/unlimited runs. I think those are definitely worth it. Even a 100 is. Just get someone who know what they are doing to help you out with the tuning (in case you're not sure), and you should be just fine.
Grandpa, if you disagree with something I've said, tell me exactly WHAT and WHY. I like to learn new things, and if I'm wrong, I want to know how I can improve.
sil80
Tell my WHY exactly anyone would need anything beyond 3 (maybe 4 if you are REALLY antsy to know your oil or fuel pressures) gauges? Don't knock me for saying that very few people will need all the gauges you've bought. It was YOUR choice, that is correct, but not everyone should follow your example, simply because very few people are using E-Manage. I know a few people here who have bought gauges for their NA cars which weren't even pushing it. Some bought dozens for their turbo cars and don't even know what they do, and never watch them. For most of us, who are usually somewhat new to turboing, the gauges should warn us of any dangerous situation that may occur to the engine, and VERY few will actually use them for tuning. You get your car turboed, you put whatever exhaust and mods on it, you go dyno tune it. There are few things you can tune there except for fuel/air and timing. That's it. I can understand why YOU may have needed those gauges, but again you have the right ones in your setup, AND you're running wideband, so you ARE one of the people who would need them.
I was more referring to j92s's setup, where he has an oil pressure, boost, and EGT gauge. I think he should have gotten oil temp as well, and water temp. The stock water temp gauge sucks badly, because it's non linear and very inaccurate. The oil temp gauges is also very crucial to knowing what's going on. A/F, unless it's wideband is completely useless. It bounces back and forth, and if the car should ever run lean, it won’t tell you much, until it’s too late for you to do anything, because you will either start knocking, or the motor will blow. Unless you have an A/F gauge that shows you your progressive ratios IN NUMBERS (14, 13, 12, etc), as rpm's go up or down, it's of very little use except for "nice glowy thingy on my dash".
By digital I meant gauges that are used in applications similar to NASCAR/Formula 1, that don't show 5psi, but 5.504 psi, so you know where you're standing, which are also monitored by some logging software so you can see the actual psi and rpm relations, together with A/F, pressures, etc. THIS would be real tuning information. How many people on this board need that? You're going with E-Manage and wideband, that's great. One other person is going with wideband. Good for them. Maybe there are 2-3 more. Add another 5 with standalones (IF that). That's about it. Most of us need to know when to stop mashing the pedal, or when our car starts overheating, instead of how many degrees of timing to retard when we want more boost (btw, there is only so much timing retard can do, do NOT use it as a complete substitute to more boost, you'll lose more than you'll gain when you go too far).
You can only tune your stuff so much by yourself. A dyno will always prove superior in ANY tuning application, unless you're a race proven mechanics team and even they use dynos). Gauges are in no event a complete substitute for a dyno. In fact, they complement it nicely when you're really serious about getting every bit of power from your car. Yes, they can get expensive, but you CAN get group deals, and all you need is about an hour (considering you don't have other problems which you can take care of yourself) to get your car in a very good shape, power wise. I've been at dynos for 50 bucks an hour/unlimited runs. I think those are definitely worth it. Even a 100 is. Just get someone who know what they are doing to help you out with the tuning (in case you're not sure), and you should be just fine.
Grandpa, if you disagree with something I've said, tell me exactly WHAT and WHY. I like to learn new things, and if I'm wrong, I want to know how I can improve.
sil80
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sil80drifter
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I see people buying gauges, we have quite a little community of "enthusiasts" here that just buy things because they heard somewhere it's good for them. And they never even look at the gauges, much less extract useful info out of them. I know this because I've been in cars with a bunch of people who have many many gauges (way more than needed, even for tuners) and they don't ever look at them. But they do brag, who has more and what kind. That is what I'm trying to prevent, because if people look at your setup, and they see "EGT" gauge and "oil pressure" gauge, they will assume that's what they need too, while their own setup may be completely different, but ppl tend to copy people who seem to know what they're doing, so next thing u know ppl are buying EGT/oil pressure gauges left and right which does them little good, and costs lots of $. You see what I mean? Every setup is different, but the three basic gauges should always be there, in my opinion. Water temp, oil temp and boost. They will definitely be useful at any point in time, whether driving or tuning. The rest depends on your setup, which in most cases does not require additional gauges.
sil80
sil80
Okay, I'll explain my opinions.
I think attempting to derive EGT from water temperature is not the way to do things. There are way too many variables when it comes to water temp, like outside ambient temperature, speed of the air over the radiator, etc. And, some people, like me, don't run water cooled turbos. I have the oil cooler to offset any temperature gains from the turbo. EGT gauges are nice to tune timing and, if used without an a/f, give a person a vague idea of how the engine is running. They are better than non-wideband 02 gauges.Water temp is incredibly useful, especially since my stock water temp gauge does not move between 72C and 98C.I prefer oil pressure over oil temperature. I think this is personal preference. I like oil pressure because, to me, it seems more useful. I'd rather know how much oil is in the engine and whether the oil pump is working, than how hot the oil is. I prefer mechanical oil pressure gauges over electrical.For a pretuned car, oil pressure, water temp., and boost are the ones I'd pick. Inexpensive gauges are okay.For a car tuned by the owner, I would go (or went) with oil pressure, EGT, water temp, boost, and WB02. Expensive (read accurate) gauges are necessary. Defi, GReddy p/h/w, etc.I'm a gauge whore. I NEED to know what's going on with my engine at any given time, and for most cars, the stock gauges don't cut it. Oil pressure warning light? Worthless. Stock water temp. gauge? Worthless.I can see where you're coming from man, but I would rather encourage people to spend more money on gauges than on fancy exhausts, intercoolers, or whatever.Oh, and gauges aren't car specific. Like aftermarket seats. They can go with you as you move through cars. Why not invest in some quality ones?
-john
I think attempting to derive EGT from water temperature is not the way to do things. There are way too many variables when it comes to water temp, like outside ambient temperature, speed of the air over the radiator, etc. And, some people, like me, don't run water cooled turbos. I have the oil cooler to offset any temperature gains from the turbo. EGT gauges are nice to tune timing and, if used without an a/f, give a person a vague idea of how the engine is running. They are better than non-wideband 02 gauges.Water temp is incredibly useful, especially since my stock water temp gauge does not move between 72C and 98C.I prefer oil pressure over oil temperature. I think this is personal preference. I like oil pressure because, to me, it seems more useful. I'd rather know how much oil is in the engine and whether the oil pump is working, than how hot the oil is. I prefer mechanical oil pressure gauges over electrical.For a pretuned car, oil pressure, water temp., and boost are the ones I'd pick. Inexpensive gauges are okay.For a car tuned by the owner, I would go (or went) with oil pressure, EGT, water temp, boost, and WB02. Expensive (read accurate) gauges are necessary. Defi, GReddy p/h/w, etc.I'm a gauge whore. I NEED to know what's going on with my engine at any given time, and for most cars, the stock gauges don't cut it. Oil pressure warning light? Worthless. Stock water temp. gauge? Worthless.I can see where you're coming from man, but I would rather encourage people to spend more money on gauges than on fancy exhausts, intercoolers, or whatever.Oh, and gauges aren't car specific. Like aftermarket seats. They can go with you as you move through cars. Why not invest in some quality ones?
-john
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sil80drifter
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- Car: 1990 240SX Hatch
I agree with your points. It's mostly preference. It's just that I haven't seen too many complaints of autometer gauges being so inaccurate that they do not justify their price, when compared to the more expensive (at least for my pocket) Greddy/Blitz/etc gauges. I've seen RX-7 owners rely on them (autometer), and those guys are in BIG trouble if their gauges are off even by a little. I'm sure some have their quircks. I can see how an EGT gauge is useful for A/F metering. Much more so than a bounce-back-and-forth F/A gauges I see in so many cars, which really don't say much for the fuel ratios. You know what, I just may add that one to the "3 list", but more as a knock prevention than tuning device (as you see I am engine safety paranoid 
), because it's hard to determine without a wideband, where you stand on the air/fuel ratios. Actually, nwo you've got me into an internal conflict whether I should add the oil pressure one to the list as well. I can't say I'd get rid of the oil temp gauge, so if the list expands to 5 total gauges, don't be surprised. Still at Autometer prices, it's about 250 bucks total. Also, I think I'd recommend a "warning device" of some sort (audio, visual, or both) to notify the owner when he is reaching the danger zone on his car, for all three... sorry four/five gauges, because when you're out having fun, it's hard to keep looking at the gauges and keeping your eyes on the road, even if they are pillar mounted.
Bottom line is, if I could afford excellent gauges, I'd get as many as my heart desires, to measure everything from pressures/temps before/after turbo/IC/fuel pump/etc, to the temp of my own and my passengers bottoms, of the best quality there is, but as many of the users here, I can only afford what I really need. So for now, it'll be the 3 gauges I've mentioned previously and later perhaps up to 2 more. I'm glad people don't just run into my suggestions/opinions head on without giving reasons or explaining their actions (like SR vs. KA debates, which I'm even afraid to make a mention of...oops). It's becoming a good thread.
sil80
), because it's hard to determine without a wideband, where you stand on the air/fuel ratios. Actually, nwo you've got me into an internal conflict whether I should add the oil pressure one to the list as well. I can't say I'd get rid of the oil temp gauge, so if the list expands to 5 total gauges, don't be surprised. Still at Autometer prices, it's about 250 bucks total. Also, I think I'd recommend a "warning device" of some sort (audio, visual, or both) to notify the owner when he is reaching the danger zone on his car, for all three... sorry four/five gauges, because when you're out having fun, it's hard to keep looking at the gauges and keeping your eyes on the road, even if they are pillar mounted. Bottom line is, if I could afford excellent gauges, I'd get as many as my heart desires, to measure everything from pressures/temps before/after turbo/IC/fuel pump/etc, to the temp of my own and my passengers bottoms, of the best quality there is, but as many of the users here, I can only afford what I really need. So for now, it'll be the 3 gauges I've mentioned previously and later perhaps up to 2 more. I'm glad people don't just run into my suggestions/opinions head on without giving reasons or explaining their actions (like SR vs. KA debates, which I'm even afraid to make a mention of...oops). It's becoming a good thread.
sil80
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L337 H4x012s
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2003 3:09 pm
2000 for a full kit including turbo, intercooler, fuel managment, manifold, BOV, wastegate, all the necessary piping, and accesories/guages, +shipping?? if thats the case it will be over 2000 unless u plan on getting great deals and doing all the piping and tuning urself. oh yea what about the APEX'i EL gauge system, does anyone have any reviews or feelings about that gauge set-up??
sil80: I actually don't have a problem autometers in general. I ran the ultralite series in my '67 camaro, and they did great. I do however think they're boost meter is a bit lacking, expect in the new cobalt series that uses stepper motors like most of the Japanese gauges.I went with the GReddy for a few reasons, it has the warnings you mentioned (blinking light, and optional wire to hook to a buzzer), the boost gauge interfaces with the emanage with an additional harness, and I like they're peak memory feature.TurboKA37: I've heard good things about he Apexi EL series, but I don't have personal experience with it.
-john
-john
L337: If you look at the list I made on the first page of this thread, I only spent about $2066 on "turbo" parts. The other 4 grand included a low mileage engine/transmission, fuel system, clutch (because you'll need one), upgraded water/oil cooling system, exhaust, and gauges. So, depending on what you want, you can do it for pretty cheap, say about $3000.
-john
-john
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L337 H4x012s
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sil80drifter
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I dont know much about Nissan trannys because im new in the Nissan world, but I know honda auto trannies dont last for crap with lots of power.
The ONLY positive aspect of turboing an automatic transmission is that it's gearing is going to be spread out wide. Im guessing 3speed with overdrive? Even if the slushbox is bulletproof, it severly limits driver input. Forget about autoxing an automatic turbo 240. If the transmission could hold up, however, depending on the gear ratios and turbo characteristics, it could run pretty good in a straight line I guess.
Plus, its a purist thing. Sports cars have 2 doors, good handling, good power to weight ratio and manual gearboxes.
The ONLY positive aspect of turboing an automatic transmission is that it's gearing is going to be spread out wide. Im guessing 3speed with overdrive? Even if the slushbox is bulletproof, it severly limits driver input. Forget about autoxing an automatic turbo 240. If the transmission could hold up, however, depending on the gear ratios and turbo characteristics, it could run pretty good in a straight line I guess.
Plus, its a purist thing. Sports cars have 2 doors, good handling, good power to weight ratio and manual gearboxes.
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L337 H4x012s
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sil80drifter
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That makes no sense to me, autos shift early and never at redline/fuel cut, so they couldn't extract maximum torque between shifts, as far as I know. In our cars you have to shift something like redline, a little below that for next gear, a little below, and a little below for fifth. The point is to end up around max torque when you shift into next gear, which is usually aroudn 4400 rpm. Auto transmission obviosuly doesn't care about max torque (it doesn't care whether ur racing or not, it just wants to get home in one piece, and will fail at that task if beaten on), so it shifts whenever the automatic transmission computer tells it to.
sil80
sil80
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WDRacing
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The fastest 300Z's are auto's...I'll beat ur *** in the the 1/4 with an auto and stall converter set up right. Not to mention the sheer consistancy. With an auto you have the ability to leave the lione at full bost where the manual leaves with jack. Why do you think the GN's are so damn fast. Boost isn't anything more then a brake peddle away. My auto Skyline was really fast...beat most guys with similer modded manuals.
I do love a manual for autox...but they get to be such a pain in the *** in traffic.
Just my opinions...my drag 240 will be auto.
WD
I do love a manual for autox...but they get to be such a pain in the *** in traffic.
Just my opinions...my drag 240 will be auto.
WD
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sil80drifter
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oh for drag, yeah most drag cars use either auto or sequential 3/4spd... I mean in general, when u daily drive and autoX and go to the track, manual is so much fun... Oh and whoever says manual sucks in traffic... suck it up. It makes ur calf muscles grow. I love stick, because it's a challenge everytime u get behind the wheel, and to master it is as much fun as any other drivign task.
sil80
sil80
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JustinStrife
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sil80drifter
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Does anyone know if the KA-E has a knock sensor? I'll check in my FSM, but for now, while I'm at work... anyone?
And MOST IMPORTANTLY: What figures displayed by the S-AFCII about the knock, would tell you if it's dangerous? It displays a number, but what numbers are bad, and what are good (I know higher is bad, but how high can it go without being too bad?)
sil80
And MOST IMPORTANTLY: What figures displayed by the S-AFCII about the knock, would tell you if it's dangerous? It displays a number, but what numbers are bad, and what are good (I know higher is bad, but how high can it go without being too bad?)
sil80
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sil80drifter
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