Concerns about CVT Trans

Nissan Rogue forum - Includes Nissan Qashqai and Nissan Dualis as well.
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Ticmxman
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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (DaleB)

Postby Ticmxman » Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:22 pm

DaleB wrote:I'm really surprised. Mine is only 2 weeks old but after reading the thread, I've been trying to duplicate the"vibration/feeling" but can't. Maybe after an eternity on this earth I may have finally bought a machine put together correctly. Did kind of worry me when I saw on my window sticker: Final Assembly Los Angeles, CA. Scary visions flashed before my eyes.

Good Luck with your vehicles.

Dale
IMO you are in the majority with this issue Dale. Enjoy your Rogue..they are fun to drive.


websfear
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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (Ticmxman)

Postby websfear » Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:21 am

So if the Rogue uses a belt, what is the MTBF?

I get the vibration too, only on the steering wheel, which doesn't bother me.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (websfear)

Postby EddNog » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:58 pm

websfear wrote:So if the Rogue uses a belt, what is the MTBF?

I get the vibration too, only on the steering wheel, which doesn't bother me.
It's a steel belt; it should last an extremely long time.

Too bad the text is in Japanese, but the video speaks for itself regardless. JATCO manufactures the CVTs that Nissan marques as its Xtronic (the software tuning is unique to Nissan, but the JATCO units are also physically used by other manufacturers, such as Mitsubishi, in models offered overseas).

-Ed

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (heidi)

Postby mmyye » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:17 am

i have the same thing. i think the reason is the cvt changed to the higher gear automatic, however the engine has not enough power to run it. some times i change the gear on the shifter paddle, the engine rmp go up, the vibration disapears. if rogue has a v6 engine i think i wont feel the vibration.

if u feel the vibration, try to use the paddle shifter, it must be on the 5 or 6u shift down, the vibration will be gone.

it's kinda annoying to me too

blue rogue, with moonroof, leather and premium.

mmyye
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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (Rogue Man)

Postby mmyye » Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:18 am

i dont think that u can hear it, but the driver can feels it from the gas paddle i think

Etch
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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (mmyye)

Postby Etch » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:18 pm

mmyye wrote:i dont think that u can hear it, but the driver can feels it from the gas paddle i think
I'm going to go out on a limb here. You're not originally from the U.S. are you? Where are you from?

Rougeee
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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (heidi)

Postby Rougeee » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:54 am

Just Purchased Rogue last week and we also note the problem with vibration feedback. We also think it is a gearing problem. Took to the dealer and fleet manager drove with us. He noted the subtle vibration feedback as well. He will be noting to service manager. Would be helpful if Nissan noted these concerns and looked for a solution. Maybe just a minor computer tweek to increase RPM's at lower speeds. Likely to affect fuel economy specs. however.

REDDOG
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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (Rougeee)

Postby REDDOG » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:03 am

I noticed the vibration you refer too right away when I test drove the Rogue for the first time. It is just the way the tranny is trying to extract every possible mpg it can. The vibration is actually the engine turning very low rpm against a light load, and quickly goes away when a heavier engine load is applied (as the rpms come up.) The only negative I can see is increased engine bearing wear due to the low rpm if the transmission doesn't let the engine rpms come up soon enough against too high a load. I suspect this won't be a problem, but if it is the engine oil analysis I perform will show it. At this point I'm not at all concerned about it, but if my results point to a problem, I'll repost and let you all know.

The Rogue is a great vehicle, so far I'm very happy with it.


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Ticmxman
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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (REDDOG)

Postby Ticmxman » Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:45 am

REDDOG wrote:I noticed the vibration you refer too right away when I test drove the Rogue for the first time. It is just the way the tranny is trying to extract every possible mpg it can. The vibration is actually the engine turning very low rpm against a light load, and quickly goes away when a heavier engine load is applied (as the rpms come up.) The only negative I can see is increased engine bearing wear due to the low rpm if the transmission doesn't let the engine rpms come up soon enough against too high a load. I suspect this won't be a problem, but if it is the engine oil analysis I perform will show it. At this point I'm not at all concerned about it, but if my results point to a problem, I'll repost and let you all know.

The Rogue is a great vehicle, so far I'm very happy with it.
Well put REDDOG and welcome to the best Rogue forum on the web.

rrs26ja
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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (Ticmxman)

Postby rrs26ja » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:16 am

I have had my Rogue for about 2 weeks. I wouldn't really say its a vibration. Someone else said it feels like when your driving a stick and your in too high of a gear. I would agree, the engine seems to be lugging. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a recall and Nissan will re-program the computer to have the cvt shift at a different rpm or down shift at a different rpm.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (rrs26ja)

Postby Cristen » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:14 pm

I've felt it too, but honestly its not enough to bother me. I don't even think its a problem.

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Ticmxman
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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (rrs26ja)

Postby Ticmxman » Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:30 pm

rrs26ja wrote:I have had my Rogue for about 2 weeks. I wouldn't really say its a vibration. Someone else said it feels like when your driving a stick and your in too high of a gear. I would agree, the engine seems to be lugging. I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a recall and Nissan will re-program the computer to have the cvt shift at a different rpm or down shift at a different rpm.
Based on my Rogue and the lack of concensus that it is anything but a normal condtion in this forum, a recall/service bulliten would suprise me. I have no problem and by the few posts on this topic on this forum or Edmunds forum and I think its a non-issue for most Rogue owners. Now this is not to say that you may not have something going on that I don't. I guess time will tell.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (REDDOG)

Postby josh1978 » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:07 pm

I too have had the same vibration. It starts around 26mph and stops once i reach 40mph or let off the gas. This being...it only does it in city traffic and not when i'm accelerating on the hwy. A little annoying, but nothing to worry about from what i'm reading here. When i traded in my chevy tahoe and nissan maxima, this little rogue popped out...lolhttp://forums.nicoclub.com/zeropost?cmd=reply&id=3256246#zer...56246#

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (rrs26ja)

Postby REDDOG » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:48 pm

Thanks for the "Welcome"!

While out for a drive by myself the other day I thought about this thread and intentionally tried to create the vibration condition several times, which I did at will. I am now definately not worried about this issue. As soon as any type of real load is applied the CVT quickly changes ratios to raise engine rpms. I strongly do not think this is going to have any effect on longevity. Any attempts by the dealer to reprogram the CVT will probably only negatively affect fuel economy.

Since it is only a slight feeling of vibration, mostly through the steering wheel, and now I know what it is, I'm no longer bothered by it. As long as this condition persists for the next 200-300k I'll be happy!

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (rrs26ja)

Postby EgNyTeR » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:37 pm

I don't think that this is a problems but it's more of a 'fine tweaking' that Nissan will probably have to do. I have the same issue and recently just purchased my Rogue only 1 week ago. I think the CVT transmission was programed to go into a very high gear quickly. Even when going at about 40-60 kmph in Canada, I noticed a slight 'vibration' as well. Once you step on the peddle a bit harder it goes away. For those of you that have the manual shift/paddle shift option switch it over to MANUAL mode using your gear changer (not the paddle shifts). You'll notice that the CVT transmission chooses a very high 4th-5th gear in very low speeds. The sensation is exactly as someone here mentioned where it's like driving a manual car in a high gear in low RPMs.

Maybe once reported to Nissan, they can reprogram the ECU to run in higher RPMs during low speeds to prevent this from happening. Of course there's a downside to doing so as well. . . that would be fuel efficiency. As more owners own the Rogue, I'm sure Nissan will have something in place soon. Remember that this is a first generation car so there'll always be some tweaking required.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (EgNyTeR)

Postby kerrton » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:33 am

I'm going to keep my eyes on the "Oil Analysis" post string to see what is shows in terms of engine wear. If the low-RPMs that we're describing here is adversely affecting the engine with increased wear, it will show up in the analysis of the used oil. It would be nice to have quantitative data to put our minds at ease, rather than someone at Nissan reassuring us when really they don't know and aren't qualified engineers or have access to data to support the claims. Thanks guys!

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (kerrton)

Postby killercross » Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:40 am

kerrton wrote:I'm going to keep my eyes on the "Oil Analysis" post string to see what is shows in terms of engine wear. If the low-RPMs that we're describing here is adversely affecting the engine with increased wear, it will show up in the analysis of the used oil. It would be nice to have quantitative data to put our minds at ease, rather than someone at Nissan reassuring us when really they don't know and aren't qualified engineers or have access to data to support the claims. Thanks guys!
Oil Analysis....you do have warranty....who cares, by the time my engine would even potentially start having real wear it will no longer be my poblem and besides Nissan will fix it. That's why I lease vehicles.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (killercross)

Postby kerrton » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:05 am

A lease is a good option if you want peace of mind but don't care about spending piles of money over the long term. I prefer to purchase because it is the most cost effective, and I don't like to buy used because chances are the previous owner is like you, and knew he wasn't going to keep it for the long-term and consequently didn't pay much careful attention to maintenace.

For everyone who purchases their vehicles, the engine oil analysis is essential if you are worried about wear for whatever reason. The warrantly likely won't be any help because it is only for 5 years and serious problems likely won't occur until after it has expired. And I value keeping my engine in like-new condition for as long as possible because even slight wearing of engine components will sacrifice efficiency.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (kerrton)

Postby jsellberg » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:46 am

i only really noticed it a couple times. not anything that bothers me or anything though. i wouldn't even call it a vibration. i've had more of a problem getting used to the cvt feeling like a transmission that is 'winding out'

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (exeunt)

Postby sckeith » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:38 pm

I have noticed this vibration as well but it doesn't bother me at all. The longer I feel it, the lower the litres per 100kms goes. I really enjoy driving this car but we did buy the 72 month extended warrenty. During the summer we drive a Miata so the winter vehicle doesn't get much driving but that may change this summer.


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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (rrs26ja)

Postby jfowl75 » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:47 pm

Actually this is one of the many things I love about this car, the cvt. For best fuel economy it does seem to get ahead of itself and lug on grades. Thats why those paddles are there, give em a tap( or two ), don't budge on the throttle and up she goes!

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (kerrton)

Postby REDDOG » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:10 am

kerrton wrote:A lease is a good option if you want peace of mind but don't care about spending piles of money over the long term. I prefer to purchase because it is the most cost effective, and I don't like to buy used because chances are the previous owner is like you, and knew he wasn't going to keep it for the long-term and consequently didn't pay much careful attention to maintenace.

For everyone who purchases their vehicles, the engine oil analysis is essential if you are worried about wear for whatever reason. The warrantly likely won't be any help because it is only for 5 years and serious problems likely won't occur until after it has expired. And I value keeping my engine in like-new condition for as long as possible because even slight wearing of engine components will sacrifice efficiency.


Rock on, I agree 100%!

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (REDDOG)

Postby REDDOG » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:15 am

For those who are interested check out my oil analysis thread. Bearing wear is practically non-existant. Sweet wearing motor for so early in its life. Sleep easy.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (REDDOG)

Postby philipa_240sx » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:05 am

Keep something else in mind here, the QR25DE used in the Rogue isn't exactly the smoothest 4cyl out there. Like the KA series before it, the QR has a long stroke and is tuned for low rpm torque. The downside is a motor that isn't as smooth or refined as some offerings from Honda or Toyota.

I lived with the 1st gen QR25DE in my Altima for nearly 5 years. It gets raspy at high rpms, but has more torque than any 4cyl I have ever driven. It almost feels like a V6. I routinely drove it in 5th gear (5 spd manual) around town and I have to say the Rogue in high gear (or should I say ratio since there are technically no gears) does not produce any more vibration. I do not find it obtrusive or annoying. Annoying was my mom's '87 Honda Accord that would nearly shake the steering out of your hands when idling!

If anything I've started to adjust my driving to keep the transmission in high gear as much as possible. I keep a light foot on the accelerator and initial indications are showing much improved fuel economy from my 1st tank (23.5 mpg).

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (philipa_240sx)

Postby philipa_240sx » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:11 pm

From another post Re: NY Times Review:
A Nissan spokesman, Brian Brockman, said the vibrations, and sometimes a booming noise, were associated with the way the torque converter lockup clutch, which works to increase an engine’s efficiency and fuel economy, is tuned. Some people are more sensitive to these than others, he said.“Lucky me,” I thought — though my husband also found them annoying. Since fuel economy is important to buyers in this segment, Nissan thought customers would be happier with better fuel economy than they would be with eliminating a vibration that some people may not even detect, he said.“It’s a condition we are aware of and keeping an eye on,” Mr. Brockman added. “But that was a decision that was made during the development process.”
I did some reading in the FSM tonight. The torque converter lockup clutch on the Nissan CVT engages at a very low 18kph. This is unlike some conventional automatics which engage at much higher speeds and gears (3rd -5th) so they can take advantage of the torque multiplication effect to improve acceleration and reduce shift shocks. When the torque converter does lock up, there is a significant improvement in efficiency.

Although I am no expert, I understand the main function of the torque converter in the Nissan CVT is to smooth operation when moving from a standstill. Since the CVT has a much wider range of ratios and no shift shock to deal with, the torque converter's other attributes (torque multiplication and vibration/shock isolation) aren't needed.

I really don't blame Nissan for the way thier CVT operates. They are pushing the technology to obtain the best balance performance and fuel economy... this one of the reasons they are using CVT's in the first place.

I for one am very satisfied.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (philipa_240sx)

Postby EddNog » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:15 pm

philipa_240sx wrote:From another post Re: NY Times Review:

I did some reading in the FSM tonight. The torque converter lockup clutch on the Nissan CVT engages at a very low 18kph. This is unlike some conventional automatics which engage at much higher speeds and gears (3rd -5th) so they can take advantage of the torque multiplication effect to improve acceleration and reduce shift shocks. When the torque converter does lock up, there is a significant improvement in efficiency.

Although I am no expert, I understand the main function of the torque converter in the Nissan CVT is to smooth operation when moving from a standstill. Since the CVT has a much wider range of ratios and no shift shock to deal with, the torque converter's other attributes (torque multiplication and vibration/shock isolation) aren't needed.

I really don't blame Nissan for the way thier CVT operates. They are pushing the technology to obtain the best balance performance and fuel economy... this one of the reasons they are using CVT's in the first place.

I for one am very satisfied.
The reason for the torque converter on conventional, planetary automatics is to prevent stalling when the car is fully stopped (but sitting in 1st or 2nd gear) or to change gears smoothly. The torque multiplier effect also happens to be a waste of energy (it is converted to heat), but it tends to be a necessary evil considering how automatic, planetary transmissions work. With the way the Xtronic CVT is designed, the torque converter serves only to prevent stall; because of the CVT's ability to maintain such a wide range of gear ratios and does not need to disengage to change gears like a planetary auto, the torque converter can be programmed to fully lock up at a very low speed (18kph in this case). Full lock means zero waste of power or energy to heat. An open torque converter works just like slipping a mechanical clutch, allowing a torque multiplier effect, but effectively wasting a certain percentage of energy in the process. Theoretically, a lot of energy (and thusly efficiency) is retained in part because of the low lock-up limit of the Xtronic CVT. The nature of the CVT, however, is such that it will exagerate the effect of driver input. If you're a leadfoot and constantly apply heavy throttle, accelerating hard, the Xtronic will be running shorter ratios more often and in general will use up more fuel than even a car with a conventional, planetary auto will, since the engine is effectively racing more of the time. On the same token, a driver who is very light on throttle with the CVT will conserve more fuel than a driver in the same car with a conventional auto, because there is less waste to open torque conversion, as well as effectively taller gearing more of the time. Essentially, there will be a wider variation in fuel consumption as a whole with CVT-equipped cars than cars with conventional, planetary automatic transmissions.

There is, however one caveat. That is that planetary autos do not use up any energy to maintain whatever gear it's set to. Once in gear, it's in gear. Belt-driven pulley-type CVTs always use a certain amount of energy to maintain belt tension/torque holding, no matter what gear it's in. Granted, JATCO has designed the CVT that Nissan tunes and markets as the Xtronic to be as efficient as possible and to minimize said hydraulic energy waste, so in general, the Xtronic-equipped cars do yield benefit over competing cars that don't have it. This explains why the Murano, Rogue and Altima all have virtually class-leading combinations of fuel efficiency and performance compared to its competitors. In a comparison of acceleration, Xtronic allows the best application of torque and power to get the quickest acceleration time. In a comparison of fuel efficiency, Xtronic allows the very tallest gear ratio to be effective at all times. Hydraulic losses are so low that it's comparable to energy lost to torque conversion on regular autos.

-Ed

EDIT: Oh yes, and as to why you feel the shock more at torque converter lockup on the Xtronic, it's because it locks up at such a low speed and short gear ratio; the effect is amplified as a result. The taller the gear ratio, the less the effect of torque conversion lockup can be felt, because the taller the gear ratio, the less of a torque multiplier effect there is.

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (EddNog)

Postby philipa_240sx » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:14 pm

EddNog wrote:If you're a leadfoot and constantly apply heavy throttle, accelerating hard, the Xtronic will be running shorter ratios more often and in general will use up more fuel than even a car with a conventional, planetary auto will, since the engine is effectively racing more of the time.
I have noticed this. I've lightened up the right foot now that I have over 700miles and I immediately noticed the fuel economy improvement.

As for efficiency, I thought JATCO was claiming efficiency similar to a manual gearbox with the latest Xtronic CVT?

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (philipa_240sx)

Postby EddNog » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:25 pm

philipa_240sx wrote:
I have noticed this. I've lightened up the right foot now that I have over 700miles and I immediately noticed the fuel economy improvement.

As for efficiency, I thought JATCO was claiming efficiency similar to a manual gearbox with the latest Xtronic CVT?
That is distinctly possible. Both pulleys can be linked hydraulically in such a way as to force a certain amount of hydraulic tension between the two pairs even when changing and holding ratios.

-Ed

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (EddNog)

Postby REDDOG » Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:24 am

philipa_240sx and Eddnog,

Thanks for all the great input. I'm very happy with the performance and efficiency of the Rogue (love the VDC, as well). If the longevity of the CVT is on par with it's performance, I'll be a very satisfied customer!

Thanks,

REDDOG

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Re: Concerns about CVT Trans (EddNog)

Postby cdmuile » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:17 pm

Exactly what I was going to post. Except, I would have said "It sure shifts nice".


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