clutch pedal, soft then stiff...

[johnnyballs180]

i did some searching on NICO and google, and i found a couple links that were close, but not exactly what i was looking for, and i'm not to sure what keywords to search with.

basically, from a cold start, the clutch pedal has an inch or more of freeplay. after about half an hour of "city driving," the pedal stiffens a lot, with nearly NO freeplay.

twin plate clutch swap (flywheel, disks, pressure plate), roughly 2500 kilometers with new throw-out bearing.

i adjusted the pedal recently out just a tad, as the clutch is now more than broken in. before that, there was about 3/4" free play, and after adjusting, about 1/4" - 1/2" freeplay... mind-you, i didn't have this problem BEFORE adjusting the pedal.

after driving for a little while, the clutch becomes really stiff, but from a cold start, there's excessive free play. fluid is topped off (but turning REAL dark..), and i didn't need to open up the lines during the swap. at first i was hoping i could just flush the system with new brake fluid and bleed it; i'll do it anyway, but this can't be what's causing my problem, right? it's not squishy after everything's warmed up.

i've heard some people having problems with their slave cylinders, using a heavier clutch, but it's definitely disengaging the clutch.

if you guys know anything, or have had a similar problem, please put your two-cents.

[chumbizzle]

i recently had the same prob, and after i bled the clutch of all fluid the re-filled (not necessary to drain all of it) and slowly took my time pumping the system up i got to less than an 1/8" of play on cold start and after about 1-2 min no play. it is now perfectly stiff. so i would suggest bleeding it and topping it off and see if it works for you as well....good luck

[johnnyballs180]

thanks. i'm going to bleed it tomorrow and see what that accomplishes. what's strange though.... last night after racing, driving home, at a stand-still in neutral, if i press in the clutch and immediately shift into first, it grins badly. i think the whirling sound i'm hearing is my pilot bearing. when the bearing slows down, i can shift no problem.but this was only last night. today, i tried mimicking what i did last night, and nothing. goes in no problem.

this further concerns me.. if you race and race, stuff's bound to happen.. but damn.

[scottydog]

SOunds like the clutch is not engaging completely, causing you to grind trying to go to first gear. My guess is clutch hydraulics. You can try a good bleed of the system. Check the master and slave for leaks, you may need to replace one or both. Unless they are relatively new replace both instead of one, as the parts are cheap.

[moulton712]

you can find a clutch master cyl and slave cyl combo, then find a auto to mani swap steel braided line. all this can be found for about $70 shipped. then you sill start fresh. over 15 years o stock lines i'd probably say you might just want new ones.

when i replaced everything when i blew two slave cyl everything was so much better. plus i didn't have to buy extras to get rid of the clutch dampner box, which is junk anyways.

[johnnyballs180]

i was thinking of getting some new lines to replace the old ones, but now that i might be moving, i'm not so sure. if i move i have to sell my car.. but if not, i'll probably take your advice. either way, i do need to bleed the system and put new fluid in. it's black now.and that's no good what makes it turn black anyway?

[scottydog]

Not enough sun block! lol

All brake/hydraulic fluid degrades, turns black, gets grunge in it. Make sure you flush it enough (fill the res several times. )

If you haven't gotten rid of the dampener box now would be a good time.

[johnnyballs180]

hey man, i have a question: why do people get rid of the dampener box? i've read removing it gives people a better "feel" for the clutch, but wtf does that exactly mean? i read a thread on the Zeroyon forum, a guy doing a clutch swap, and he showed the removal of the box. i'll check it out again.

so i couldn't find one of those self-bleeder tools anywhere.. with those, you pump it up and it creates a vacuum while it's attached the the bleeder nipple, you open up the bleeder, and the vacuum sucks the fluid out. just like when somebody else sits inside the car and pumps the pedal. i don't have anyone to help me, so this is kind of lame. i think if i completely submerge a hose attached to the bleeder in some brake fluid, i can keep the bleeder open and just pump and pump it all out. my dad said it can be done, so i'll try it.

i'm still wondering why the clutch goes from mashed potatos to concrete though..

[johnnyballs180]

hmm.. WELL!, i removed the dampener to see what happens, and at the same time, flush out the clutch hydraulic system. it's a no-brainer, a little messier than i like to lay in, but pretty straight-forward.

okay, so this is the thing we're removing. dampener box, i guess it's supposed to make the "feel" of the whole clutch-age a bit softer.. or something. all i know is, i don't need it.slave cylinder.. this is where we're going to bleed the system from. TRY TO FIND THE BIC LIGHTER I LOST! i spent a half hour looking for it the other week, and finally just gave up. you can see it in the next pic too. i've lost this very same lighter at least a dozen times in my engine area, but i always seem to come across it... you know, once i've made peace with losing it. i was tempted to just leave it there, but thought it'd be put to better use in my pocket.a better pic of the slave cylinder and how it's connected to the dampener box.. the bleeder-nipple-doodad is on top of the slave cylinder.. and my lighter still there.OKAY! this is what we're doing.. moving the hard line coming from the master cylinder (angry finger) to the slave cylinder (index finger)... simply by-passing the dampener.our SUPER HI-TECH AWESOMENESS EQUIPMENT. no, really, a 10mm wrench (i later discovered i also needed an 8mm), new brake fluid (dot 3), a SOBE bottle (it HAS to be strawberry daiquiri flavored, otherwise this will not work), and conveniently, a clear hose which fits very nice on the bleeder. things like this NEVER work in my favor, but i guess God felt like giving me a break.this is the dampener after removing.. i kind of had my hands full and covered in car spluge, so i didn't want to reach for the camera. it's just a matter of two small screws, as shown.. 10mm i think. otherwise, remove the hard line by unscrewing it from the slave cylinder (the line coming off of it) and from the line coming down from the master cylinder.then there you have it.another pic of the damn thing.it would have been nice for someone to take a pic of me doing this, but i'm always solo.. so.. oh well. at first i was trying to bend the line while it was still attached to the master cylinder, but i couldn't get the angle i wanted on it since i was under my car. i just removed it from the mater cylinder with a GENERAL IDEA of how i wanted to bend it, and just went from there. make MANY SMALL bends instead of a COUPLE BIG bends, that way you don't accidentally over-bend the line and snap it or cause other bad **** to happen. i've done it a couple times in the past.. small bends are easier anyway, and my line, surprisingly, came out damn-near perfect.this is about straight-up from the ground.. you can see the nice long bend. i saw a picture of the same line some guy bent, and it was not very nice.. sharp bend, the line actually kinked. like the cardboard in a paper towel roll; if you bend it, it kinks in half. it may work just as well....... but i'd rather not piss my car off.

hook the mofo up to the slave cylinder, and you're good to go. make sure you don't cross-thread, and all that stuff. if the line doesn't fit up right away, take your time and be patient bending it properly. if you **** it up and don't have a spare (or new SS braided one), then you're.. well.. screwed. jacka$$.

dampener box removed... next comes bleeding.

now, bleeding's simple. make pressure via pedal, release at bleeder, monitor fluid level. i can't pump the clutch pedal, hold it, release the bleeder and monitor the fluid all at the same time.. i'm just not octopus-like enough. so here's a simple and fun way to do it by yourself!

reminder: bottle must be glass and of SOBE decent. if you use a coke bottle or beer bottle, all your wheels will explode and the IRS will tax everything you own. not to mention, the SOBE lizard will rape you.

poke a hole on one of the lizards' head, and do your best to keep it the same diameter as whatever hose you have. a tad smaller is better than a tad bigger (betcha never had a girl tell you the same thing). a clear hose is best to see fluid and bubbles.i put the hose in so that it JUST hits the bottom.poke another SMALL hole in the cap to vent off air as the old fluid will consume the space. this hole should be on the same lizard's ***...just another picture. for the FLUSHING of fluid, i placed the bottle on the ground. for the bleeding, i tucked it up in the engine, ABOVE the slave cylinder. this way, while bleeding, bubbles go upwards, into the bottle, instead of back into the bleeder. mind-you the bleeder STAYS open. it's not like when somebody pumps the pedal, holds, and you momentarily open the bleeder to let some fluid squirt out and then close it quickly.the first bit of old fluid. not too bad, right? just wait.

i was too busy to take a picture, but at this point, the bleeder is completely open, the clear hose is snuggly attached to it, and the hose is ran into a SOBE bottle.my car was on jack stands, and i really don't like climbing in if i don't have to.. i needed to continuously add fluid to the reservoir (about every three or four pumps of the pedal), plus pumping the clutch pedal.. i got a long stick, basically, and zip-tied it to my clutch pedal. i can stand outside the car and prod the stick back and forth, and then just turn and add fluid as needed. i deemed this the easiest way for me.i over-did it on the fluid flush, but i was sickened with the color of the old fluid; i wanted to make sure it was GONE. i used more than half of the Gunk DOT 3 fluid in that bottle.. but i was happy with the result.

if you're ****'s black like mine, flush it out good. if you're simply bleeding air out of the clutch line, then you don't need to pump and add as often as i did.. having a clear hose helps at this point.

FOR BLEEDING AIR, like mentioned a little earlier, i placed the bottle above the slave cylinder. on my car, the steering shaft is in the area, so i just stashed the SOBE bottle up there. it didn't complain.from standing outside my door, pumping the pedal with the stick adding fluid as needed, i could very easily see the fluid in the hose right as it came out of the slave cylinder.. this was very convenient for me, as i could see, without hassle, if any air was coming out of the slave cylinder. after i was happy with the fluid flushing, i placed the bottle higher and pumped and added fluid until there wasn't the tiniest, minute bubble left.

after that, making sure the clear hose does NOT come off of the bleeder and insuring no bubbles make it way back to the slave cylinder, i closed the bleeder, lowered the bottle to the floor, and let the remaining fluid seep into the bottle.

BAM! nasty-ness.that's the end result.

clutch-age felt good, but it didn't eliminate my soft-then-stiff issue. later, i just lowered the pedal a bit, and now it's fine. there's a LITTLE more free play than i want, but it doesn't get super stiff after driving. at least i know there's no pressure going to the pressure plate, and that i'm not butt-raping my 1500 dollar clutch.

os giken kicks ***.

long, over-simplified write-up on something very easy.. but i had some time to kill, and i'm sure there's somebody out there who IS a little less than keen on things who could use it..?

[scottydog]

The dampener box is removed for several reasons. First it has a valve in it that gets gummed up causing problems. It's also a royal PIA to bleed, going back and forth between two bleed nipples. third it's unnecessary, and gives you a less direct feel for the clutch.

Nice writeup!

Btw if bleeding doesn't fix the soft to hard problem could be a slave cylinder going south.

[johnnyballs180]

thanks scottydog! that's exactly what i needed to know.

my dad was thinking it might be one of the cylinders.. definently no leaks. maybe some fluid by-passed the cylinders, and so the clutch pedal free play increases.. on the other hand, if i pump the clutch hard and fast, nothing changed..

i dunno, i'll figure it out.

[Koshin]

this happened to me not to long ago, it ended up being my master cylinder...just to let you know

Rich

[johnnyballs180]

thank you, rich. i really need to rebuild all the hydraulic cylinders in my car, especially the brake master cylinder. it's squishy, but there's no air in the lines. if i want to, i can easily lock up the brakes.i don't know where to get rebuild kits over here though. i've NEVER seen them.do you know if the 240sx has the same cylinders? i'll look up part numbers when i get home from work.

OH! this is also interesting... last night i adjusted the pedal down a little more; it was really stiff again. i loosened the locking nut, rotated the pedal shaft thing, and after about a 3/4 turn, the pedal suddenly released.. like the pressure was relieved. i quickly adjusted it BACK to where it was, but it was still soft.i lowered it again just a tad, and it hadn't become stiff since.

thanks for all your help, guys.

[santana56]

nice write up jhon-180 im about to bleed mine out

[johnnyballs180]

why, thank you santana56.

and just to update, the pedal's EXACTLY where it was when i last adjusted it; no softening, no hardening, nothing exploding.. so, life is good.

well.. you know.. i'd rather have a bazillion dollars and own my own island somewhere in the pacific.............. but i'll work on that later.

[S133P3R]

ummm.... does this work the same on LHD 240s? seems maybe put the bottle somewhere else? im replacing my slave cylinder tomorrow cuz mine popped while i was driving. thanks to this thread ill be drinking strawberry daquiri sobe (u can make wicked bongs out of these bottles when not filed with gunk), zip-tying sticks together, removing some dampner box and using a forklift to lift my car (more on that later)... thanks for the write up!

[johnnyballs180]

lol my pleasure.

i would imagine lhd vs. rhd would be about the same.. and as far as the bottle goes, it doesn't really matter where it goes, so long as air doesn't get back inside.

so S133P3R, how've you been? and the car? you know, other than slave cylinders popping off.. haha

[S133P3R]

started with the clutch pedal bracket snapping 2 of the spot welds, while driving... waited about 2 weeks for a replacement part from some bozo on here, turned out being the wrong one... so, drilled thru the old welds, used grade 8 bolts and just stuck the bracket back in to place... ok,,, so i ordered the cylinder in preparation for a clutch kit im buying and then a day after it gets here... POP! pull over, fluid on ground, piston from cylinder there too... AGHH!!! car towed to work/garage.

1wk passes, went to fix it... couldnt break bolt from transmission.... give up only to find my beaker bar shortly there after.this wkend..... f@kin BS all day... GF has been driving me to work and back, cool. she is returning from families house and gets into an accident (raining at night)... crap, there goes my ride. saturday morning, friend arrives in 2004 volvo S60R to go help me with my car, i hear water dripping...... radiator is leaking!!! crap!!! crap! crap! call off trip to fix my car and tear down his car in prep for radiator, a $459 radiator that is.

i really need to get this fixed as im supposed to be driving 3hours up the coast to a big meet on feb 28th... so many things to do...

how long you have left in japanland?

[johnnyballs180]

i fly out on the 3rd of march.. and, jesus dude, your luck SUCKS. hahaha

have you been able to fix anything yet?? i had a friend who had a similar issue with his clutch pedal bracket snapping. he had boughten another one, not realizing it wasn't the bracket, but what it was mounted to.

i'm very surprised that i haven't had any real issues with the whole clutch thing, other than the funny free-play. i'm sorry to hear that you keep having these problems, especially when the majority of them have nothing to do with your car. hahaha

i thought i saw a post from you in another thread, but i don't remember which one.. did you say you needed something from here?

[S133P3R]

yeah, its cool... fix one thing, break another.. just happened to get that part right before it broke... IDK if it would be worth shipping and everything... I was lookin for some window trim.. those visors that mount on the Acolumn and help with wind/rain? i havent looked for them or anything... prolly just find them on the net. hit me up if you think you can get them cheap, wasnt that your post about the $500 o2 sensor? crazy ish...

[liquid_cool]

johnny..great write up man..seems you know your game..glad to have another person or your calibur here on the forums...

have you ever thought of upgrading your fluid to a DOT 4 or DOT5.1?..looked like the fluid you bled out might have been heat dmg'd..let me know what ya think.

[S133P3R]

johnny..great write up man..seems you know your game..glad to have another person or your calibur here on the forums...

have you ever thought of upgrading your fluid to a DOT 4 or DOT5.1?..looked like the fluid you bled out might have been heat dmg'd..let me know what ya think.

what fluids would you recommend? i usually only see dot3, but then again thats @pep boys... always lookin for better products.

[johnnyballs180]

you know, that's not a bad idea, but at the time all i had was that DOT 3 stuff. if i didn't have to make a special trip, i would probably have bought the DOT 4 stuff.do you think the clutch fluid gets very hot?

well, all this aside, my car's sitting on a for-sale car lot right now..i have no more car to play with.

[S133P3R]

damn that sucks man. dont worry theres plenty of projects waiting for you over here in the states...

[johnnyballs180]

finding a job will be my first project. hahaha

[S133P3R]

this post is just more problems.....day 14:get under car, break main bolts on transmission housing... cool.move to hardline and hose connection... bolt is frozen there, great. PB blast (rust breaker), the corners round off... rad, NOT!day 15:order new short hose from autozone...day 16:pick up new hose, its wrong. their stupid part number matches 5 different hoses in their inventory!!!! WTF!day 19:order short hose, again (kragen this time)... get correct hose same day...day 20 (today):get under car, spray PB on rusty connector after dampner box... they strip! FAIL!move to line feeding dampner box, soak with PB.... wait... it will not budge, i dont want to strip it so i am taking it to my mechanic tomorrow... why is this so f***in hard?!!!! [/vent][/rant][/pout][/threadjack]
Modified by S133P3R at 7:51 PM 2/26/2009

[scottydog]

John there is a valve in the box that seems to get crapped up, not to mention bleeding the system with the box is a real PIA, not to mention the box is useless.

[ef846]

yeah clutch is always soft but i am taking all that out soon