clarification on a few audio questions.

[EazyBreazy]

Alright i just picked up a 95 240, my last 240 was a base so i didnt have any of the fancy options, This one on the other hand has tweeter screens in the a pillars. So does this mean that i have the 6 speaker option and have the factory amplifier. Also Im thuroughly dissatisfied with the factory speaker system but i don't want to put a sub in the trunk. My plan is to run an Alpine SPR component set in the front doors 6 1/2's and then I've thought about doing the rear speakers a little differently. I want some base, but generally from my experience 6 1/2" speakers arent capable of putting out much, so I've been tossing around the idea of putting 6x9's (probably spr's as well) into the space behind the rear seat arm rest panels. Has anyone done this, would it work well or would I be better served to put a regular 6 1/2 SPR's on the rear deck.

Also I dont know much about component sets, but how difficult are they to install. I have alot of experience with wiring and stuff like that so I am not afraid of that aspect, but very little experience with amps and Top Tier audio.

Another question is what amp, should i run to power just 2 - 6 1/2 alpine spr component sets and 2 alpine spr 6x9's. Im pretty sure i would need one to get the best sound out of them
Modified by EazyBreazy at 8:23 PM 5/1/2008

[Looneybomber]

Wow, we've got a lot of stuff going on in your thread. Let me do some organizing.

Questions.1) Do I have 6chan audio, because my A-pillars have screens?2) I want more bass, but how can I get it w/o a sub?3) Can I put 6x9's in the space behind the rear seat arm rest panels?4) How hard are component sets to install?5) What amp should I get for 4 channels of sound?

Is that all?

Answers.Man, I sure wish I had a 240 because I have no idea what these rear passenger arm rests are. Do you have a hatch or fast back?

1) I don't know 240's, but probably.2) By putting subs in your car with very intricatly placed enclosures...or no enclosure at all.3) No idea, but don't use regular 6x9's if all you're wanting is bass. Use 6x9 subs and save yourself 100bucks.4) Depends on where you're putting them.5) A 4 channel amp that fits within your budget.

***EDIT***Ok, Crutchfield says your car uses 6.5's in the rear deck. Use these in the existing location. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe...4-832

You may have to add a piece of plywood for rigidity and sealing when mounting the woofer, but that's no big deal. Now you have more bass and no huge box in your trunk.

*Side note*I'm really going to need to put an install in a 240 on the cheap! I want to see just how cheap I can do it. I'm thinking I could do it for 550-600, which includes everything, even amp wiring...I'll start looking around.
Modified by Looneybomber at 11:42 PM 5/1/2008

[EazyBreazy]

1) I think thats a possibility2) what do you mean, Im not really trying to increase the number of speakers in my car, I believe i could do fine with 4 total speakers if i put the right stuff in.3) could you give me an example of said 6x9 subs, all the ones i've seen were coaxial, guess i'll have to do some more looking into those4) the tweeter would be in the a pillar and the 6 1/2 would be in the door, but i've never messed with the crossover things before5) At this point i dont have a budget per se, more or less just trying to get all my ducks in a row so i can begin shopping for the stuff i want then start saving.

As for the space behind the rear passenger arm rests there is quite a bit of unused room on s14's and thats what i have

[Looneybomber]

If it's a hatch and not a fast back. I'm at ~425.00 w/o a headunit. This includes front components, rear "subs" and a 4channel amp. The subs would be the 6.5 inch subs I linked to that bolt into the existing location.

The component set is one I pieced together using known speakers of good quality, 4ohm each, and with similar sensitivities that wouldn't require a complicated crossover in a car due to the off axis listening position. (I actually just PM'ed a mod on here that lives not far from me. I'm excited to put this system together and he has a 240! We'll see if he has some cash to spend on his car [or if he even wants to] and get a write up made for Nico) I'd be using a Seas tweeter and Dayton reference 6" woofer. Crossover would likely be at 2k, but I may even choose 1.8k.

The amp is a 4chan Pioneer off NewEgg.com

The headunit is of your choice, but if you get one around 150, that keeps my system in the 550-600 realm once you add in wiring.

[EazyBreazy]

i've already got a good older alpine head unit, so im good on that, but going off of what you got there i could theoretically do my system for

Alpine SPR component set for front 1366 1/2 sub for rear 100and an amp like this http://www.newegg.com/Product/...25269for 120

I'd total out to less than 400 with wiring and install since i can put speakers in, read directions and run wire lolmy only problem is the great disparity in the rms of those two speakers brands. The subs are only 50 rms, where as the Alpine speakers are 110 rms. either i'd wind up with durastically under powered front speakers or over powered rears

[Looneybomber]

4 channel amps have gains for either all 4 channel, or for two groups of 2 channels (front and rear). Your front channels you can turn your gains up if you need to or, the novel thing about this, use the fader within your headunit to fade from front to rear to adjust the amount of bass you have any time you want.

And don't put too much faith in the RMS/Peak ratings. It's a whole other conversation, but suffice it to say I could blow nearly any speaker with half it's rated power, or play it just fine with twice it's rated power.

Those Alpine units you talked about are cheaper than the component sets I was talking about piecing together for a reason But more than likely will be perfectly fine for you! You can save a few pennies and buy those.

***My seperates***My component sets, I want to piece together due to the ease in making the crossover (XO). Mounted in a door, everything is off axis, so there's no need to add any notch filters. Secondly, because I would use Dayton's 6"mid as opposed to their 7" mid, the sensitivities between the woofer and the tweeter match better, so there's no need to pad down the tweeter.

Here's where there's a problem though. If someone wanted to mount the tweeters in the a-pillar, I'd likely have to pad down the passenger side 2db and the driver's side 3-4db. It's not hard, it's just more expense in XO components.

The next problem, if someone wanted to use an actual sub in their car, and not those 6.5" bolt-ins, a 7" mid would need to be used over that 6" unit which would require a slight XO mod, and another 1-2db of tweeter attenuation. But will have a greater power handling and more midbass to better blend with a sub.

Designing a XO is not something I am going to do though till after this semester is done and final tweeking wont take place till after they get installed in a vehicle.

[EazyBreazy]

all way over my head lol

[Looneybomber]

all way over my head lol

If I piece together an entire system I mentioned above, I'll put together a writup/article and hopefully get a custom title. It'll make much more sense after that...and it'll have lots of pictures.

[EazyBreazy]

I was always under the impression that Alpines SPR series speakers were very good, now mind you, I know they're not the very top tier stuff all of that stuff is custom, but I have always heard very good things about them

[Looneybomber]

There's nothing inherently wrong with them. They've produced a few speakers I've not been happy with. The sound just wasn't pleasing. But, not everyone has the same taste in sound.

[twistedsymphony]

This one on the other hand has tweeter screens in the a pillars. So does this mean that i have the 6 speaker option and have the factory amplifier.

Most likely yes... but there are a few very easy ways you can tell to be 100% sure.1. Does your car have the factory CD player built into the main head unit? The Premium audio package had a CD player instead of a cassette player if you've got the CD player then you probably have a-pillar tweeters and a factory amp.

2. Open your trunk and look under the rear deck lid (the area where the rear speakers are located) The factory amp is made up of 2 metal boxes that hang from this area with a plug going into each box... you can't miss it.

3. remove your a-pillar cover and look for the tweeter under the front grills. This is easy to do simply find the edge of the plastic pillar cover near the top of the door gently pull down right at the end of it until it pops off, then work your way down the windsheild until you get to the bottom and it will come right out. Once you've got the cover off you'll have a much better idea of how much space you've got to work with for an aftermarket tweeter.

Also Im thuroughly dissatisfied with the factory speaker system but i don't want to put a sub in the trunk. My plan is to run an Alpine SPR component set in the front doors 6 1/2's and then I've thought about doing the rear speakers a little differently. I want some base, but generally from my experience 6 1/2" speakers arent capable of putting out much, so I've been tossing around the idea of putting 6x9's (probably spr's as well) into the space behind the rear seat arm rest panels. Has anyone done this, would it work well or would I be better served to put a regular 6 1/2 SPR's on the rear deck.

I am also dissatisfied with the factory speakers, some of mine are at the end of their life anyway. I actually just bought Alpine SPR-17S for the front and Alpine SPR-17C for the rear (got a good price on them from onlinecarstereo.com, shipping was slow but it was also free so I can't complain). I wont be adding a subwoofer until much later.

It's impossible to get sub-woofer like bass without a sub-woofer. If it was possible to do cheaply and easily it would stand to reason that more people would be going that route.

With that said more surface area on the speaker generally allows for deeper tones so yes theoretically 6x9s would be able to produce deeper sounds than straight up 6.5" rounds. However, in my experience while the volume and tone range might improve, the overall quality and crispness of the sound drops significantly when going to an oval or square speaker. Personally, even if my car had slots for 6x9s I would use an adapter plate to fit round speakers in there... but that's just me.

I'm assuming by "arm rest area" you're referring to the large trunk pass through area. IMO this would be a bad location to mount normal speakers; however, it might be a good location to build a custom 10" Subwoofer enclosure without using up any of your trunk space (assuming thats the reason you don't want subs in your trunk). a high quality 10" sub will sound much much better than any hackneyed solution using 6x9s, and there are lots of options available for installing a sub without losing storage space.

Also I dont know much about component sets, but how difficult are they to install. I have alot of experience with wiring and stuff like that so I am not afraid of that aspect, but very little experience with amps and Top Tier audio.

Crossovers are easy.

Basically a cross over simply decides which parts of the audio go to which speaker. Most amps have a cross over build in for subwoofers so that it only sends the low sounds to the sub woofer. Component speakers are no different.

Most speakers have 2 connectors, a positive and a negative. The Cross over units will have 6 connections, a positive and negative input that comes from your amplifier or head unit (this would normally go directly to the speaker in a non-component setup), then it has positive and negative outputs for both the tweeter and the mid-woofer. Simple really... 1 set of inputs and 2 sets of outputs... that's it. Some cross overs will let you adjust the cross over point, but most sets (like the Alpine SPR) are pre-tuned by the manufacturer for the best performance with their speakers) The hardest part is figuring out where to mount the damn things

Another question is what amp, should i run to power just 2 - 6 1/2 alpine spr component sets and 2 alpine spr 6x9's. Im pretty sure i would need one to get the best sound out of them

Most power ratings are misleading... the most useful/accurate however is the RMS rating.

In my experience the best situation is to first check if the speakers have a MINIMUM power rating and if so ensure that your amp is at least above that. In general most speakers at the performance level we're dealing at don't have a minimum rating. Next you'll want to check the Maximum rating and ensure that you're below that...

Don't think that 110W RMS speakers need 110W RMS amplification to sound good, they'll still sound great at 90W or even 70W RMS. Obviously you don't want to starve them but over amplification can be even more damaging.

Find a decent quality 4 channel amp, you'll want to at very least ditch the factory amp since it's designed for the factory speakers, and those are altogether very different than the Alpine speakers you're looking to install.

Personally I'm just going to be running off of the amplification from my factory head unit for a few weeks while I research my amp options... this will also give me an idea of how well my speakers respond to fairly low lower and help me make better decisions about what I'll need for an amp and how much extra omph I'll need from a subwoofer.

[Looneybomber]

it might be a good location to build a custom 10" Subwoofer enclosure without using up any of your trunk space (assuming thats the reason you don't want subs in your trunk). a high quality 10" sub will sound much much better than any hackneyed solution using 6x9s

+1! I don't know 240's but I do know audio, and if you can get a sub to fit, do it!

Crossovers are easy.

They can be, or, if not done half-assed, can be extremely hard! The good thing about car audio is the environment is so bad that subtle tweeks in the crossover to change phase shifts, or varying orders of slopes-whether electrical or acoustical-or even different types of crossovers like a Linkwitz Riley, Bessel ect...will not be noticed much.

Look into crossovers and you will see there are pages upon pages of mathematical formula's involved and things as subtle as a squared off baffle edge vs. a 3/4" round-over can make noticable differences in sound. Which is why car audio doesn't matter as much as home audio because a car's interior sucks so bad for sound reproduction.

[twistedsymphony]

They can be, or, if not done half-assed, can be extremely hard!

In terms of selection and tweaking, you're right there are a lot of technical aspects but I think the OP is only really worried about installing whatever gets thrown in the box with his speakers.

The good thing about car audio is the environment is so bad that subtle tweeks in the crossover to change phase shifts, or varying orders of slopes-whether electrical or acoustical-or even different types of crossovers like a Linkwitz Riley, Bessel ect...will not be noticed much.

Look into crossovers and you will see there are pages upon pages of mathematical formula's involved and things as subtle as a squared off baffle edge vs. a 3/4" round-over can make noticable differences in sound. Which is why car audio doesn't matter as much as home audio because a car's interior sucks so bad for sound reproduction.

Too true... I haven't done much with car audio in years but I'm big into home theater and my fiancee thinks I'm crazy when I go around the room with a meter adjusting speaker position and cross-over frequencies. I'm quite familiar with the mathematical formulas involved too. I've an engineering degree from Rensselaer and I helped one of my close friends from college do analysis on his designs for some amature speaker builder competitions... cool stuff, especially when you've got expensive school equipment to play with

Most of the stuff for car audio is garbage by comparison though and with such little space to play with it's amazing people throw as much money at it as they do... I suppose I don't have to tell you though

[Looneybomber]

...my fiancee thinks I'm crazy when I go around the room with a meter adjusting speaker position and cross-over frequencies...

You have a fully active system? You don't see that too often.

I have a thread in the media section about how much you've spent on your audio system. In there I mentioned idea's I had for my system, but I've since modified them a bit. This summer, once I get caught up on other projects, I'll hopefully be starting my (TMW) towers consisting of a Fountek Neopro5i ribbon tweeter, Mid not certain yet but probably a PHL 1120, and Lambda 15" woofer.

I'll likely tinker with an active crossover, and then emulate the settings with a passive XO. Those drivers are all excellent so I don't have to worry about cone break-up or other ugly gremlins besides the slight rise at 10khz in the neopro5i, but that can be taken care of with a notch filter. I'm also not too worried about impedence because my amp is 2ohm stable.

I just hope I can get them done before the Iowa DIY event.

If you haven't already check out AVSforum.comHTguide.comHometheatershack.comDIYaudio.com and when you're ready to make fun of people or companies...http://www.createforum.com/petereuro/

[twistedsymphony]

yeah I'm on AVSforum.com but I'm not too active these days.

I got my system setup just how I like it about a year and a half ago and the only thing I've replaced since is the projector.

... though sometime in the next year I'll probably move to an HDMI based decoder, I haven't gone Blu-Ray yet I'm still waiting for the price to drop so I can get a fully speced device.