Civil Discourse

[96Qowner]

Ok, I'm thinking that it's quite possible that someone like me isn't welcome here, but I thought rather than just disappear, I'd try one last time.

I'm not a man who's accustomed to being insulted to my face. Contrary to what many have insinuated, I don't have a difficult time expressing myself either in real life or on forums, something I've been doing for over 12 years now. Disgusting hateful little twerps are nothing unusual - they're present on every forum, and it's a very difficult job to manage them because they show no respect for anyone or anything. Don't get me wrong, I know they're just a fact of forum life - the abcnews political forum is chock full of them, and no one is expected to control them - you just put up with it. But I'm here in this forum because it's almost impossible to have a decent discussion on the abcnews boards. I've been a NICO member for, dunno, 6 years or more, moderated the Q45 forum for a couple years. Luckily the only problem guy there is an old prick who is tolerated because he's only unhelpful and nasty. He's been a member longer than I am and is tolerated for legitimate reasons that I understand, even though I would have booted the A-hole long ago. Eventually, I got burned out and left NICO for a year or so.

Almost exclusively, I've found NICO members to be good helpful intelligent people who are eager to learn and share their knowledge, so when I wanted to discuss the election last fall I returned to this small NICO board. Does anyone remember the reception I got? I was, frankly, shocked at what y'all put up with. But ... ok ... I don't have to engage with the hateful ignorant hecklers so I simply quit responding to them. Y'all watched as they continued to hoot and jeer and ruin what could otherwise have been constructive conversations. Again, who am I to judge? Fine. It's your forum and apparently you're all happy with your trolls.

But that doesn't mean that people like me have to put up with it. In the few months that I've been reading and posting to this Politics forum, I can't think of a single new member showing up. You may find that allowing the youngsters to poop on the coffee table while y'all sit passively by and watch is not all that attractive to people who may want to come here to share their opinions and learn from others. You don't have to ban them, but the passive bit makes a guy wonder. I guess it's ok as long as they don't do it to you? Again, no big deal - it's not like it's a shocking, unheardof thing. I've admired the way Greg handles them with great patience and tolerance, but I don't have kids so I don't relate to young people as a father would. I don't have patience with an adult acting like a 14 yr old with an "issue". In real life, that never causes a problem. Usually, they find it refreshing that I'm willing to take them on face value and listen to them as an equal, not as someone's kid. In fact, I had three college men in the cafe yesterday to interview me for a business class. Near the end, I brought up the way some of the members of this forum behave online, and they all smiled knowingly. I asked them if maybe they simply relate to each other that way, insulting each other thinking it serves as an argument and they all said no way, nope, this is something that happens online for them, not in real life. You know, the usual excuses, the thing we're all guilty of occasionally - forgetting that no one thinks you're smart or cool or mature when you lose your ability to control yourself. I thought maybe I just took the hate and intolerance seriously, when it actually meant nothing. According to them ... nope. Go figure. Maybe I live in some magic town where people don't get red in the face and hurl invectives at people who disagree with them. Maybe y'all don't, I dunno.

If you wish I'd just go away, I sure understand and I will, no worries. If I stay I can assure you that I will never bow to political correctness. I will judge people by their words and behavior, which is the only way to judge people online AND in real life. I will make comments regarding the behavior, not the man. I will try (and sometimes fail) to avoid suggesting that someone needs to see a psychiatrist or that they're insecure about their sexuality, C-Kwik. I will listen to any viewpoint and try my best to explain why I can't agree. I will point out the weaknesses of their views and grow impatient if they fail to listen to me. I will try to avoid baiting the hateful and ignorant. But I will not take a whole lot of crap from your pet trolls. You've heard enough from me to know whether you ever want to see me post here again.

I do want to make one observation that is uncalled for, but since I've lost most of my desire to post here I'm going to make it anyway. There is someone on this forum who claims to be a Muslim. I have many Muslim friends that I've met personally and through business. I've met a few of their children and parents and I've had dinner at some of their homes. They're all fine good people, nothing like your guy. I can't imagine any of them tolerating such behavior towards me. Siavash and Shadi have a couple of great college age kids who show absolutely no hatred towards anyone. If one of them had acted the way this jackass does, I would imagine Siavash would have been absolutely mortified with embarrassment. He would have promptly escorted the poor kid out of the room and I would see him again only if he had a sincere apology prepared for me. Babu is an elegant gentleman. It's inconceivable, inconceivable, that anyone would even dare hurl insults at anyone in his presence. I can't imagine what he'd do. Ali is a former opium grower from an important family. You decide what you think Ali would have done. His friend and business partner Abbas is a happy jolly person and would probably escort the conversation somewhere else where we wouldn't be disturbed by the ill-mannered punk. Siavash's brother Siamak, a former member of the Shah's security forces might do something truly nasty. I'm quite sure none of them would tolerate it and all of them would be personally ashamed for it, so I wonder what sort of "Muslim" your guy is. I know that the Muslims I'm acquainted with have a cultural ethic that insists on special manners being extended to guests in their homes. I say this because I have a very hard time believing that this guy is a Muslim. Those of you who don't have Muslim friends should know that.

I also have several gay friends I could tell you about, but I won't waste any more space here.

We do no service to anyone when we let the narrow-minded enforce their ideas of which opinions are tolerated and which aren't by allowing them to be shouted down. But it's your forum, not mine. You decide what you want here.

[telcoman]

Nice post.

You forgot to mention a few that have been banned because of their opinions including a previous moderator.
There appear to be more leaning right than leaning left with very strong opinions and sometime support of some real political wack jobs running for office.
I'm sure things will really heat up as we get close to the 2012 elections.
I've also noticed fewer postings here.

Sometimes I'm surprised I'm still here.

There are other places to go.

Telcoman

[mattblancarte]

WIth all due respect, 96, I question how you can make such statements without objectively reflecting on your own track record within this forum.

Your most recent thread, which is locked-down now, was incredibly incendiary in nature and set the stage for fervent discourse. Eikon was quick to the punch in foreseeing that.

You personally failed as the OP to respond to many challenges and arguments, opting to deflect heated conversation. I'm honestly surprised that you would expect members of the forum to keep their cool on the subject. We're talking about an issue as relevant to our country as the civil rights movement.

If you feel as if you are only capable of light and dainty conversation regarding tough subjects such as gay rights, then perhaps you should refrain from posting on the subject.

Nobody can truly enforce ideas in a forum, 96. This may be a shock to you, but some people in here feel that you are the one with narrow-minded viewpoints. It's no more our forum than yours, as well. You have not been shouted down, as that is impossible. You have had ample opportunity to scrutinize and respond to each individual challenge, yet you chose not to.

In regards to your "youngsters pooping on the table" analogy... I don't know how to respond to this without holding a mirror up for you to look at yourself. Another shock to you may be that some people in here feel that it is you that is doing the table-pooping. Does that make sense? Calling members "hateful little twerps" in a passive aggressive tone will gain you zero respect here, nor would it in the real world. Man up and respond to your dissenters, sir. How would you feel if you were to be labeled "the hateful senior" because of your views on gay rights, specifically?

While I can get on-board with a call for generally civil discourse, I would like to again point out that it is important to know what type of opinions will garner intense reaction.

I hope you feel this response was civil enough, and not so loud in that you can't respond. Thanks.

[IBCoupe]

Here's the deal: if you start a thread by insulting your readers, the very people you're seeking to engage with, don't be surprised if they act like "civil discourse" is foregone. As Matt suggested, let's look at your last thread: you opened it up by pooping on people's doorsteps, and then got all surprised when they "pooped on the table" in response.

Start respectfully, and there's a much better chance that the conversation will stay respectful. If you really are as much an elder as you're trying to portray yourself, this shouldn't be news, and I shouldn't have to tell you.

[AZhitman]

You forgot to mention a few that have been banned because of their opinions including a previous moderator.

Say all you want about my business, this forum, my opinions, my sexual preference or my ancestry.

But I thought I made myself quite clear before, Howard. No one, not even your douchebag pal Robert, has ever been banned because of their opinions. It's NEVER happened. Period.

But, since you're so damn smart, and think you know it all, let me tell you WHY your butt-buddy was banned: Because he took something on this forum SO personal that he actually contacted the EMPLOYER of one of my other staff, with the intention of getting him FIRED. He sent screenshots of my staffer's postings to the CEO of the company, asking if he condoned "goofing off" during working hours. I'm sure that makes him your hero, but that's beside the point.

Now - Would you like to apologize, or shall I assume that you don't have enough hair on your a$$ to eat your ill-conceived words?

If you impugn my integrity ONCE MORE without a shred of proof, either directly or through an irresponsible insinuation, you will no longer be welcome herein.

Do I make myself abundantly clear?

[AZhitman]

I can't really speak to much of 96's original post, because I don't see things the same way. This is a forum for discussion and discourse. It gets heated. EVERYONE in here has gotten their feathers ruffled, but the thinking man stops short of saying something he may regret later, or something that can be clobbered as untruth.

As far as Muslims, there's more than a few. I have a Muslim staffer who is one of the most intelligent, gentle, and insightful people I've ever met - I look up to him and value his help and his friendship immensely. But he's certainly not our only Muslim member - we have several. Our "token Muslim" here in the Politics forum has never given me cause for anger, even through I disagree with him quite frequently... (his little Jewish buddy, on the other hand... Oy vey!).

I guess I'm dense, because I don't see a problem. You come in with some facts, common sense, and a well-defended position, and there's a TON of respect to be had in here. Most folks walk in, decide they're unwilling to put forth the effort, and leave - that's perfectly fine. But I have learned MORE about sociopolitical issues HERE since we started the Politics forum than I *ever* learned in school.

Deep breath, do what you do, be real, and don't compromise. That's about all it takes to be a respected poster in the Politics forum.

[telcoman]

You forgot to mention a few that have been banned because of their opinions including a previous moderator.

Say all you want about my business, this forum, my opinions, my sexual preference or my ancestry.

But I thought I made myself quite clear before, Howard. No one, not even your douchebag pal Robert, has ever been banned because of their opinions. It's NEVER happened. Period.

But, since you're so damn smart, and think you know it all, let me tell you WHY your butt-buddy was banned: Because he took something on this forum SO personal that he actually contacted the EMPLOYER of one of my other staff, with the intention of getting him FIRED. He sent screenshots of my staffer's postings to the CEO of the company, asking if he condoned "goofing off" during working hours. I'm sure that makes him your hero, but that's beside the point.

Now - Would you like to apologize, or shall I assume that you don't have enough hair on your a$$ to eat your ill-conceived words?

If you impugn my integrity ONCE MORE without a shred of proof, either directly or through an irresponsible insinuation, you will no longer be welcome herein.

Do I make myself abundantly clear?

I never knew why. Only that he was.

[C-Kwik]

I will try (and sometimes fail) to avoid suggesting that someone needs to see a psychiatrist or that they're insecure about their sexuality, C-Kwik.

Please go back and reread what I posted when I suggested your insecurity. It was intended to mimic the approach you took when you started the thread. How one can be so presumptuous as to make such an uninformed assertion based on anecdotal musings? I can't. And certainly, neither can you. But you did anyways. I apologize if that wasn't clear. I had no intent of insulting you. It was merely a way to show you why people were reacting badly (which I agree is not called for). It is somewhat ironic that while under the belief that I was saying something hateful to you, you took the time to make a reference to it specifically. Consider then, how you felt when you read it when you think about how you write your own posts. While I think you handled it well, I wouldn't expect that to be the case for everyone if I had made a more blanket statement about a group of people.

[AZhitman]

I never knew why. Only that he was.

Of course you didn't - Because it was none of your business. Yet you toss about irresponsible and libelous allegations?

Don't make wild speculations that impugn my integrity.