Chris Buttars wants to get rid of the 12th grade in Utah.

[MinisterofDOOM]

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_14308399

In order to save money.

What he doesn't understand is the impact this will have everywhere else. There's already a problem with freshman-level classes in college, especially in state universities and other "cheaper" schools, which often feel just like high school. Freshly graduated high school students are often not mature enough to fit into that learning environment anyway, and their presence is often detrimental to the classroom experiences of older college students. This was my personal experience in many classes. Putting large numbers of 16 and 17 year old kids in college classes is a recipe for disaster.

I find the implication that graduation can simply be "accelerated" as though we can simply take more credits sooner to graduate early a sign of his naiivete. Yes, it's possible. But Utah's school system has demonstrated a distinct lack of the required organization to do this successfully. I have friends who graduated a semester or a year early. But I also know people (including myself) who, despite the "guidance" of school-system counselors, came up lacking required credits or needing to cram in prerequisite credits, because they had been missed or skipped due to oversight or lack of information on behalf of those school counselors. If you're counting on every single student graduating in 11 years, you've got to be on top of this stuff, from grade 6 on. It won't happen. So what will happen is kids will end up taking night classes to cram in 8+ missing credits. Or they'll end up taking the 12th year anyway. It'll be a mess.

It's a joke. I understand there's a budget issue. But the federal education system is already a joke. Cutting vast chunks out of it is not a solution to anything.

FWIW, neither Buttars nor his proposition are very popular with anyone I know around here. But then, he did get voted back into office, so SOMEONE likes him.

[idahotuner]

i have taken classes with adults twice as old as me and had them be immature and act like freshmen, but at the same time i have decided that the way people act as a system in a class room doesnt really change from the first time they go to kindergarten. the dynamics are still there

[seang]

MOD is right, the content is going to have to come from somewhere. My local community college basically has classes that are like high school classes, in a literal sense. Except now the student has to pay for it instead of being able to take it for granted.

[bigbadberry3]

Senior year is a crucial year for students. Most schools offer the upper levels of classes (APs) which are very important to students for a couple of different reasons. AP's look good on a transcript as well as boost GPA due to their heavy weighted grading curve. In addition to making the student look well on paper, AP classes senior year usually are transferable as college credit. Even though AP credits only eliminate a few college courses, they will help some financially as they will not have to pay for the credit hours. Even if the credits do not carry over to college, students in AP senior level classes have an introduction into much of the material they will encounter during their freshman year classes.Also, I'm not sure how well colleges will receive students who have less hours completed in school. The GPA will be skewed due to less hours in the classroom and even athletic eligibility may be in question.

[dusred]

Now you know why our Family does Home School. . .

[WDRacing]

Depending on where you live, Home School is definitely a better choice. But the parents have to really be on their game. I've seen many hs kids come out lacking tons of social skills. Smart as a whip, but will be eaten alive in the real world. Again, not a huge factor if the parents are doing things to expose the kids to interaction with others.

We're lucky, we have a class called "Tumblers" on base here. Young kids get together and "learn" basic gymnastics. But it's really toddlers on up having fun rolling around and what not. Only $30/month...total win.

As far as removing a grade goes, my opinion is simple really. I'd prefer to cut every federal and state program for welfare and healthcare and anything else before we take away from our kids education. We're talking about the future of our nation here. Just for putting this idea out in the public, this idiot should be immediatly fired.

We need a stupidity oversight committee. Instantaneous decision making and swiftly acting.

[audtatious]

Numerous states are now going to offer Juniors and Seniors, who plan on going to community colleges, the chance to test out of HS in order to go ahead and start CommCol courses. My state isn't one but KY is.

[bigbadberry3]

Can't students who really want to get out of senior year take enough credits by the end of their junior to graduate anyways?

[MinisterofDOOM]

Yes, but few do as it isn't always practical. Especially here in Utah, where it is common for Mormon students to take a "release" period every semester during which they take a seminary class, which means they have one less "slot" available to work with in their schedules per year throughout their jr. high and high school careers. I have mormon friends who still managed to graduate early despite taking seminary for 6 years, but they were definitely the exception.

[dusred]

Depending on where you live, Home School is definitely a better choice. But the parents have to really be on their game. I've seen many hs kids come out lacking tons of social skills. Smart as a whip, but will be eaten alive in the real world. Again, not a huge factor if the parents are doing things to expose the kids to interaction with others.

I agree 100%.

I went to a private school for the majority of my education and I've gotta admit I'm lacking in social skills but going to a real school was so worth it IMO.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Especially here in Utah, where it is common for Mormon students to take a "release" period every semester during which they take a seminary class

What?

[audtatious]

Can't students who really want to get out of senior year take enough credits by the end of their junior to graduate anyways?

This is what I'm talkin bout:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02....html

[MinisterofDOOM]

What?

It's like work-release, except for church. Pretty much. Except it's really laid back and most kids see it as a nice escape from school. It's hard to explain to people who aren't familiar with the setting, so I won't throw this thread off track with it. The important point is, of ALL the places to suggest eliminating the 12th grade, this fact makes Utah the least practical.

I agree 100%.

I went to a private school for the majority of my education and I've gotta admit I'm lacking in social skills but going to a real school was so worth it IMO.

Hell, I went to public school for 12 years and I'm STILL lacking in social skills. At least you came out ahead on the education side.

[bigbadberry3]

Geeze. 2 years is an extremely short period of time. I don't doubt that it is possible for some students to learn what is needed to prepare for college level courses in a 2 year period but that's a considerable task to coming out of 8th grade for the majority. Some of them won't even be old enough to get a drivers license when they're ready to go off to community college. However, I would think that a lot of the students who would jump at this would be the type of students who do not give up junior and senior years to goof around. If these students are extremely studious cramming an education into 2 years, they'd be the type of student who enjoy taking AP credit classes, which are right on par with the level of difficulty of community college courses. In that aspect, I kind of see this option as a wash. As a future science teacher though, I'm trying to figure out how to pick out material to teach these students because if you're cramming junior and senior level courses in early, a lot of the base you needed to teach these harder concepts won't be there.
Modified by bigbadberry3 at 9:40 PM 2/21/2010

[MinisterofDOOM]

Choosing to give up your senior year to go to college is one thing. Having the state take it away from you is a completely different thing.

[WDRacing]

Choosing to give up your senior year to go to college is one thing. Having the state take it away from you is a completely different thing.

In the end that's really what it comes down to. Yes it can be done, but only when the choice is made by the individual. NOT when the state thinks it knows whats best for everyone...just to save a few bucks.

Like I said earlier, we have plenty of money to provide excellent educations to every child in America. We just need to stop spending/wasting it on everything else. For instance the 1 million dollars that they give Obama's wife's staff. Oh I understand she needs some help and I'd concede that 100,000 dollars of taxpayer money should be more then enough to pay for her staff. Seriously...if we're gonna take away from the children shouldn't we be cutting the fat in all area's? These are the questions that need asking folks and only we can ask them. Shouldn't we all be saying WTF?

We need a Fiscally Conservative Congress, period. Anyone not on that boat, to include 3/4 of the current Republicans, needs to be elected the F out of office this year.

The American people have the ability to right this Nation, we just need to unf*** our current way of thinking and make the right choices. Like not getting your opinion from the media. Get out, get involved...inform yourself. Then vote this Nation back on the right path.

WD