Checking Out The Competition

[achr]

I have a year left to run on my Versa lease but have already starting looking at what's new to the game since I picked up my Nissan. My current car is a White loaded Versa SL with the gold interior. (sadly, a color combination that Nissan has dropped for 2008). A white Versa is now only available with the dark blue/black interior.

Hatchbacks by nature are a very practical design but it would be hard to classify them as stunning looking vehicles. I mean, the Versa is O.K. but I'd be hard pressed to catagorize it as beautiful. The Toyota Yaris and Honda Fit are just unappealing to me at all from an aesthetic standpoint. Similarly with the Dodge Caliber, especially from the back. Some of the Korean hatchbacks are reasonable and my eye would put the current Volkswagen Rabbit at the top of the hatchback styling heap for a well integrated package. And of course, there's the unique Chrysler PT Cruiser but I've already owned a couple of those and it's nice to have a change once in a while.

Well finally, someone has been able to craft a very clean Hatchback which actually flows from surface to surface with a great grill, well integrated headlights and tailights, etc. The stance is good and I'd even go so far as to say it is almost beautiful to look at.

That vehicle is the new Saturn Astra. I've awaited arrival of this vehicle for several months and it finally landed in my city last week. I wasted no time in cruising to the dealer to check it out firsthand. Alas, there will be no Astra in my future. While I still think it looks fabulous from the outside, the proof for me is in the interior. You can get that interior in ANY color you want as long as its Black (irregardless of exterior color). Strike 1. Also, there is NO center armrest available (either front or rear) no matter which model you choose. Strike 2. Since my wife and I often transport other people around, ease of entry/exit is VERY important to us. The rear seat of the Astra doesn't begin to approach the Versa in this regard. Strike 3. You're out. I'll still admire its good looks as it drives by though.

Now if I could only drop the Versa interior into the Astra body shell, I'd be a happy camper.

As it stands now, the new Chevy Malibu has taken a giant step up the ladder when my time comes to switch vehicles.

[matt_a]

So have you eliminated the possibility of another Versa?

[Rockhound]

The Astra seems to have been rushed to the US market...very little "Americanization" has taken place. Some folks might find that appealing - but others will balk at the lack of armrests and cupholders. Even more puzzling is the clock's inability to switch to 12-hour mode - it's perpetually in 24 hour mode. Again, a seemingly minor detail, but you wonder how hard it would have been to reprogram a digital clock prior to bringing the Opel over.

By all accounts, however, it seems to be a fairly well-liked vehicle by the press, but then again, in comparison to Saturn's past cars, just about anything today would seem like a step up. From fisher-price designed interiors to the world's harshest engines, they may have been reliable but fit-and-finish and refinement weren't high on the list.

Saturn is a dead-brand walking, or at least should be, as there's far too much redundancy in the GM line of brands.

As for the new Malibu - if transporting people is common for you, you'll want to make sure the back seat has enough room. Most reviews I've read say that the interior is cramped and that the back seat is especially narrow. Similar to the Astra, Chevy skimped in some weird ways with the Malibu as well - as there's no center armrest for the rear passengers either.

Take the Chevy Silverado grille and huge gold bow-tie off of it, and it might be a decent looking sedan. As much as an improvement it is over the dismal previous two generations of Malibus, it seems to me too little, too late to win over any Camry, Accord, or Altima owners/shoppers.

Add in the fact that the Saturn Aura (the Malibu's GM twin) has already shown some reliability issues, and it makes you wonder how much of a turnaround this "American revolution" really is.

[Ever Victorious]

By all accounts, however, it seems to be a fairly well-liked vehicle by the press, but then again, in comparison to Saturn's past cars, just about anything today would seem like a step up. From fisher-price designed interiors to the world's harshest engines, they may have been reliable but fit-and-finish and refinement weren't high on the list.

Saturn is a dead-brand walking, or at least should be, as there's far too much redundancy in the GM line of brands.

The minute they decided to stop designing their own actual line, Saturn died. That was in the early '00's, when the S series was replaced by the Ion.

The interior on my '97 SC1 was actually quite well put together for a car of its time. Yeah, the engine was a bit noisy and buzzy, but it had a very wide, flat torque curve, was extremely good on gas (40+ MPG cruising at 75 mph on 85 octane gas in Idaho with the AC blasting). It was actually one of my favorite cars I've ever owned. It's a shame that Saturn has become what it has.

I was hoping the Astra would be a good turnaround for the lower end of their line. Perhaps if they tweaked the model a bit, it could be.

[reyes1212]

YEah that's true.^^^^^^

On a side note.The checvy Aveo was gonna be the first car I looked at, but when I found out that it didn't have AC, powerlocks, good airbags, MINIMAL SPACE, no cd or cassette thing, etc.man I thought was either very rushed or...just super cheap for anyone to buy at the lowest package.

[Rockhound]

The interior on my '97 SC1 was actually quite well put together for a car of its time. Yeah, the engine was a bit noisy and buzzy...

I found the interiors of '90s Saturns appalling. Despite my urging otherwise, my grandmother purchased a '99 Saturn SL2 several years ago. While it was excellent with reliability, that's where my compliments end.

When I was having a shop create and install a cat-back on my '93 Sentra, I drove the SL2. Hard plastics with horribly cheesy "grain" as far as the eye could see, and some of the worst switchgear I've ever had the displeasure of touching. The turn signal literally felt (and sounded) like it was going to crack into millions of pieces just engaging it.

"A bit noisy and buzzy" is an understatement - I thought they must have taken the engine off of a depression-era tractor. Revving past 3k rpms resulted in a sound that you could roughly interpret as the engine saying "DO NOT WANT!" I couldn't wait to get my Sentra back. Ironically, the Sentra, 6 years older than the Saturn and with 70k more miles, had a much more refined engine that idled quietly and revved smoothly, achieved nearly 10 MPG better in town, and had switchgear that operated with refinement.

Also ironic about Saturn is that they recently dropped "American" from their slogan "Rethink American" because of the irony that they are increasingly becoming Opel-USA. Now it's simply "Rethink", as in, you should Rethink your decision to buy Saturn.

[Vahagn23]

idsay mercury sable really nice car

[jacksan1]

"A bit noisy and buzzy" is an understatement

Isn't that the truth? When I first rode in my friend's SL1, I could not hear myself THINK. Another friend of mine who got her driving license in her 30s went car shopping for the first time in her life, and one of her stops was at a local Saturn dealership. She apparently test-drove an SL2, and came back to report that to me. She said:

"I don't know anything about cars, so I may be saying something stupid.""Oh, what is it that you want to say?""I had a headache after I drove that Saturn. It was, kinda, noisy. But all cars are like that, aren't they?"

You know how I responded.

By the way, Opel (Saturn) Astra is good. A great curve slicer that is built tightly, and I may say that it is the first Opel that I have been truly impressed with. I hope that Saturn will not mess with it too much to Americanize it. It is plenty good in the original flavor.

[Rockhound]

By the way, Opel (Saturn) Astra is good...I hope that Saturn will not mess with it too much to Americanize it. It is plenty good in the original flavor.

Although I have no first-hand experience with it, the press does seem to think it's a nice little car. No doubt it is - although the automotive press has taken a bit of an "aw shucks" type attitude toward "Domestic" cars these days, as if they're somehow sorry for all the (justifiably) poor ratings they've given most Domestics for the past decade (or so).

Now that the Big 3 are in trouble, you can definitely read a different tone in reviews of the Malibu, Aura, Astra, etc., which is fine, but one wonders if the sentimentality is perhaps going a little too far.

Anyway, I digress. Point is, I'm fine with a Germanic hatch, and I've come around to the 'less-is-more' line of thinking when it comes to cars these days...problem is, too many Americans are too American. That is, they want 10 cup holders and big comfy armrests, oh, and 12-hour clocks. Some might say that's not too much to ask, and perhaps it isn't, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Astra's lack of basic Americanization results in lower sales than if it had the aforementioned amenities.

I understand products get rushed to the market, and bean-counters get the final say (especially at GM), but for a company so dependent on today's success, omission of certain 'American' features seems like a major oversight.

[Ever Victorious]

There was something wrong with both of those Saturns that you two were referring to.

My Saturn was buzzy really only under heavy acceleration (passing on the freeway and autocrossing). most of the time, the car was very quiet and well mannered. Not as quiet as the Versa, but probably about as quiet as our Tucson, which is pretty darned quiet.

Horribly cheesy "grain" in the plastics? My god, the faux carbon fiber in the Versa is more eye-gouging than anything I ever saw inside the single cam Saturns. Granted, the dual cam Saturns had some funky fabric patterns going on... but I've seen worse in Altimas... and "worse" fabric patterns seem to be STANDARD in Sentras. And Hondas, my GOD Honda has some fabric patterns that make your eyes bleed. and that's not even what makes me complain about them...

If the type of plastic and fabric covers used are your main compliants about a car... especially a car that was among the lowest MSRP's available the years they were produced... I don't know WTF to think about your demands in a car.

All I know from actually OWNING one (which is more than you bellyachers can claim) is:

yeah, a little buzzy.Fuel economy that would give a PRIUS or a Geo Metro a run for its money. And would leave a Fit/Yaris gasping on fumes.Performance that would easily smoke said PRIUS/Fit/Yaris. Also smoked turbo'ed Talons and some modded Mustangs. With Autocross timeslips to prove it.Traction control system that rivals the functionality of the one on my wife's Tucson... that is 8 years newer!ABS system that BEATS the Versa's in performance... despite the Versa being 10 years newerMine smelled like smoke. Because a chain-smoker owned it before me.Interior integration was more than up to par, it exceeded everything in GM's line short of Buick and Cadillac.

To be brutally honest with you two, if I hadn't been such a dumb impulsive punk 5 years ago, I would PROBABLY have only traded in my SC1 this year, and that only due to a Coupe not being very prudent to carry a baby in. NONE of the cars that I have had since then have been able to beat it in overall driveability and useability. Not the Versa, not the Optima, not the Spectra, not even the Legacy.

(really, the Versa only beats the SC1 in butt-cushiness and rear seat legroom. And a little cargo space, but not much... that thing could carry a LOT for a car its size)

I'm starting to have suspicions that Jacksan1 and Rockhound may secretly be Consumer Reports agents.

[msb0b]

Maybe these pics will make you reconsider Astra

*large pics so linking instead of inlining

http://www.saturn.com/saturn/i...4.jpg

http://www.saturn.com/saturn/i...4.jpg

Don't get me wrong, I like Astra and other Euro hatches a lot. The Euro spec will outhandle our Versa easily. But chances are, it will be one part that Saturn did not forget to Americanize. I really like the panoramic sunroof on the Astra. It gives the driver the sense of being in a fighter jet. In typical GM decision making, they are not selling it stateside.

[Andrews Chalmers]

It gives the driver the sense of being in a fighter jet. In typical GM decision making, they are not selling it stateside.

Ford also does this - every now and then I question if market research is finding that the typical American customer's taste is that different and unique from the rest of the world.

Then I see the folks who say "I only buy American" and proceed to purchase a GM vehicle built outside of the United States and I realize maybe why the vehicles are so intentionally crappy.

*duck for the flames*

[Rockhound]

There was something wrong with both of those Saturns that you two were referring to...

...I'm starting to have suspicions that Jacksan1 and Rockhound may secretly be Consumer Reports agents.

Sheesh, that seemed to have hit a nerve...

1) No, there was nothing wrong with the Saturn SL2 I had the displeasure of driving for multiple weeks at a time on different occasions, it was practically mint.

More like there's something wrong with some people's perception of NVH (noise, vibration, and harshness).

From an Edmunds.com test of the '99 SL2:

"Driving around the hills just outside of Nashville can be a horrifying experience to anyone whose eardrums are easily offended by obnoxious noise. That fact has less to do with the local taste in music than it does with the predominant motor vehicle driven by the people who live in the hills just outside of Nashville: Saturn cars.

...

As a result, Spring Hill is overrun with Saturn cars. Until last year, these cars were among the noisiest vehicles in production, in terms of decibels invading the interior of the car. Wind up the engine, and break out the Advil - a Saturn car could quickly induce a migraine. Saturn thoughtfully provided a circa-1991 sedan to drive for comparison to the new powertrain, and my head is still pounding. The good news is that 1999 represents a quantum leap over 1991."

Coming from my experience with a '93 Sentra at the time (this was around 2004-2005), the Saturn seemed positively medieval. Even though Saturn claimed to have drastically reduced NVH in the '99 models, it was still an unbearably coarse engine that acted as if it hated revving.

2) I never said anything about fabric patterns. I was taking about cheapo plastics. No, I don't find the faux carbon fiber in the Versa "eye gouging" - in fact, I find it's just the opposite. The tan plastics in this particular SL2 were just terribly cheap looking. The black plastics in the Versa aren't too much different from the plastics found in a first-gen G35.

Similarly bad was the switchgear. I'm talking about cheap buttons throughout, radio buttons that mysteriously fall off, and a turn signal stalk that "clunkety-clunks" into place. But such is life when GM tries to make a bottom-basement priced car.

3) WTF are my demands in a car? Well, when a '93 econo-car bests a '99 model in NVH, refinement, interior materials, and fit and finish, then I guess I'd say that's my benchmark - and the SL2 failed.

4) I was driving an SL2, which had the 124hp 1.9 LL0 engine. Fuel economy was about 23-25 MPG in town (EPA rating: 25). Again, my '93 Sentra XE, with a 110hp 1.6L GA16DE (and not to mention, 70k more miles at the time) achieved nearly 10 MPG higher in town. The SL2 weighed 72 lbs more and had a slight lb/hp advantage over the Sentra.

I'm starting to have suspicions that EV is in denial...
Modified by Rockhound at 11:58 AM 2/3/2008

[Ever Victorious]

Funny how you get irritated when people critisize your Honda, yet you're shocked when someone pushes back when you tell them that a car they own or have owned is crap. Pot. Kettle. Black.

And don't quote Edmunds or CR. That's just pathetic... neither of them are entirely on the up-and-up, and everyone knows it. If a Honda engineer took a dump in a wind tunnel and put a chrome "H" on it, they would automatically call it the greatest car on the planet.

[kc5f]

But say something bad about Hyundai or Kia and EV finds his pressure point! Seems we all have our pet peeves and preferences. Too bad we can't accept that and not feel personally offended when someone feels differently than we do about a particular brand, model, website or whatever...

[Rockhound]

Funny how you get irritated when people critisize your Honda, yet you're shocked when someone pushes back when you tell them that a car they own or have owned is crap. Pot. Kettle. Black.

And don't quote Edmunds or CR. That's just pathetic... neither of them are entirely on the up-and-up, and everyone knows it. If a Honda engineer took a dump in a wind tunnel and put a chrome "H" on it, they would automatically call it the greatest car on the planet.

Okay, so lets break this down. I posted up pics of my new car, and the first comment posted was this:

God, those things are almost the ugliest thing on the planet...

and I also got

sorry but those are gay...

That's not criticism, EV, it's immature and shows a lack of tactfulness, especially coming from a former moderator that commonly criticized members of having a similar attitude. That's what's pathetic.

Please go back and see how I handled immature comments from you and others - I thought I handled it quite well, actually. You think otherwise?

It's not an opinion that first- and second-gen S-series Saturns were loud and lacked refinement (especially first-gen). It's a fact. Find any professional review and that'll come up - whether you think they're on the 'up and up' or not. I take it your definition of a publication that's on the 'up and up' is one that constantly confirms your opinions?

Furthermore, anyone with decent hearing and understanding of cars could tell you the same. You don't even own the car anymore, so I'd say it's time to get over it. Notice that I did say this particular SL2 was very reliable - it never had a single issue. Just oil changes and routine maintenance. A great 'appliance' car.

I get it, your family had 10 Honda's spontaneously combust, so you think that surely any publication that praises them is payed off to do so - AND that Honda's great reliability history is all a sham.

But say something bad about Hyundai or Kia and EV finds his pressure point! Seems we all have our pet peeves and preferences. Too bad we can't accept that and not feel personally offended when someone feels differently than we do about a particular brand, model, website or whatever...

So true. If you go back to my original Element thread, I tried not to get too irritated and move on - it's fine that some folks don't like it and that doesn't hurt my feelings at all. Part of why I like it so much is that it's unique and even polarizing. Some folks responed with "not my taste, but congrats..." and that's fine. That's how you respond maturely.
Modified by Rockhound at 5:32 PM 2/3/2008

[msb0b]

Ford also does this - every now and then I question if market research is finding that the typical American customer's taste is that different and unique from the rest of the world.

The market research studies don't align with us enthusiasts' priorities, but I think for the most part they hit the mark. The majority of Americans view the car as an appliance so they want it to be comfortable and cheap transportation. Bland beige boxes like Camry, Accord, Malibu and Focus sell well for that reason.

Throw us enthusiasts a bone please.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Figured I'd pop in and comment:

I've been pretty impressed with the new Malibu all around. Sure, it's not perfect, but for a midsize Chevy, especially considering it's price, it's a great car. I'd absolutely rather have a Malibu than a Camry or Accord.

My thread from General Chat on the new Malibu:zerothread?id=300922

As for Saturn:Early Saturn was comprehensively unimpressive. I had the opportunity to have a LOT to do with a friend's 1992 SL2 (I think...it was a 1st gen at any rate) and I don't have ANY fond memories. The interior was oddball at the best of times and absolutely retarded at the worst. Saturn did a LOT of strange little things that worked together to bring the whole package crumbling down.The car was absolutely tiny inside...much smaller as far as people-space than it's appearance would suggest. The driving position was horrid. The dash cluster had an oddball setup I've NEVER seen anywhere else, with a poorly angled gauge cluster that had the gauges too far toward the driver which served to give the car both a claustrophobic feel and a "why didn't they do this the 'normal way?'" feel. The dash was so close and low I couldn't casually glance at it--I had to move my head to counter the odd angle. On the occasions I drove it, felt very cramped and sort of jammed in there, unable to get comfortable. Meanwhile the "torquey" 4 felt utterly anemic (though I'm sure it's better than any of Honda's comparable offerings) and made an absolutely terrible working-itself-to-death growling grind that not even Ford's horridly crude 4.0 V6 can match under throttle.There was not one thing I liked about that car. From the recycled shrunken Oldsmobile styling to the goofy "saturn-ness" of the design. It was all too "wrong." Saturn tried so hard to be different that they succeeded--in a few areas. The problem was the areas they succeeded in were the ones that shouldn't be tampered with. The rest was typical econobucket.

The Saturn SC2 is top-tier material for an Ugliest Cars Ever Produced list. I really don't know what in Hell or anywhere else the designers were thinking. They gave the thing butt cheeks for crying out loud.

Modern Saturn may not be a "real brand" but at least they're making "real" cars. No more one-off super-niche oddballs. They're metal-panelled cars from a european GM branch that has been desired by US consumers for a while now. The last Opel we got was a good car, but was sold under the wrong label and flopped (Cadillac Catera). Saturn should do a much better job as a euro-outlet badge. Honestly I think it's refreshing, even if none of Saturn's cars appeal to me personally, simply because it's something different than the typical GM flatness we've seen in the past. If they're quirky, at least they're quirky with decent powerplants and metal body panels.