Changing the headgasket, OK to reuse a metal HG?

[kouki-gymkhana]

So I finally decided to get cracking on my overheating problem. I was convinced it was a blown HG since I used a block tester and it showed evidence of combustion gases in the coolant. My buddy and I spent the whole day tearing the engine down and we were finally able to get the head off the block (with both manifolds still attached) and what do I find?? A triple layer metal headgasket!! When I compare it to the new OEM one that I have from a full gasket kit I snagged a year ago, it looks BEEFY, like 3 times the thickness of the OEM one. I carefully examined the head, HG, and block and saw no obvious evidence of a leak but I did find some of the OEM orange gasket maker stuff surrounding the water jacket at the front of the block that might have caused it to seal improperly.

I don't have any experience with metal HG's so I honestly don't know if it is, or isn't OK to reuse it after I prep the block and the head. Is it OK or should I just plug ahead and swap in the new OEM one? I'm at stock boost with no plans to swap turbos or crank up the boost anytime soon.

Thanks?
Modified by kouki-gymkhana at 11:59 AM 5/13/2006

[Carl H]

might have been a lifted head or old head bolt, stud that sob and plane the head.ive heard of ppl reusing cometic gaskets which are multilayer metal gaskets but im not too sure, the gasket you found in there was proly to lower the compression ratio so more boost could be run.

[Darius]

It's funny you should bring this topic up as I have a recent thread about a leaking head gasket going. I chose not to plane my head as I didn't think it was necessary at the time. I bought a Cometic gasket and it has a Viton-steel-Viton gasket. Once I had the motor completely in and ready to drive, I noticed a coolant leak... leaking head gasket. Apparently Viton is a good high temperature, chemical resistant material but is difficult to get to seal. I should have known this as I'm an environmental engineer and this material is used in some of the valves we specify, but I never knew they were a PITA to get to seal.

So, long story short, I pulled the head (still can't figure out how you got the front auxiliary head bolt out to pull the manifolds with the head) and pulled the cams and am dropping it off at the shop to get it resurfaced today. I also coated the gasket with spray on copper gasket sealant in hopes that will help with the sealing issue. If this doesn't work, I'll have a motor for sale .

Anyways, can you physically see any damage to the head gasket or where the coolant might be leaking? As long as you have the head pulled, you might as well just put a new metal head gasket in there that you KNOW the thickness and condition of.

[BoostFab]

you can reuse the metal headgasket. be sure that your head isn't warped and it's clean, sprays some copper gasket on to both side of the headgasket.

[Carl H]

from the minimal experience that ive had with metal hg's it is VERY important that the head is uber smooth for it to seal right, and by smooth a near mirror shean to it when you look at the head...we had to pull a cometic gasket off of a friends ka because it was leaking and not sealing due to the head not being THAT smooth.

[kouki-gymkhana]

Thanks for the replies guys. I cannot see any visible damage to the HG or to the block or head. The only thing that looks abnormal is that there is some of that OEM orange gasket maker gunk that comes in full gasket rebuild kit at the right front corner of the block, HG, and head at the large coolant passage just behind the water pump. I'm wondering if this is what caused my overheating problem but I see no evidence of carbon tracks to suggest flow of exhaust gases into the coolant passages there.

Darius, I wasn't thorough when I said that I pulled the head with both manis still attached. I loosened the intake mani (14 friggin bolts!) so that I could get access to the accessory head bolts on that side. I remember your situation with your metal HG disaster and for that reason, I'm hesitant to either reuse the one that I have or to put in another one.

Also, where can I buy copper gasket spray? Would the local parts chain have it or do I have to order it online??

Thanks!

[98birdls1]

Is it orange silicone gasket-maker or corrosion?

I know the water jackets in my block are coated in orange crap that is just corroded collant stuck in the block. It looked just like orange silicon gasket material.

Luke

[Darius]

The copper gasket spray is found in every auto parts store. It's called Perma-tex and is in a shiny orange can near the silicone sealants. I don't know if I over-coated mine or it just wasn't dry, but that crap was sticky. Hopefully it'll dry out and be easier to handle.

Yeah I can't wait to try to put the manifolds back ion there and bolt all that stuff up that I can barely reach with extensions and swivels.

[Bluefire]

I have had both good and bad results reusing metal head gaskets. But either way I would highly recommend getting a new gasket. This is one of those things where you have to decide whether a few hundred dollars are worth the risk of having to pull the head again.

-Bluefire

[green91]

was it fun to pull the motor apart? id throw a new HG in there. plus metal gaskets REQUIRE a near perfect mating surface on the deck and head both!

[BoostFab]

where can I buy copper gasket spray? Would the local parts chain have it or do I have to order it online??

Thanks!

it is critical that ur head isnt warp...the naked eye cant tell. this spray has been proven to work on boosted motors. this is what it looks like, http://lambretta.net/shop/shopexd.asp?id=4136
Modified by BoostsFed at 12:06 PM 5/12/2006

[kouki-gymkhana]

Well, I dropped off the head at the machine shop yesterday. I think I'm getting ripped off on the price but this guy is the only one in my area that's reputable among the speed shops. He's charging me $250 to disassemble the head, check the valves and lifters, replace the valve stem seals (which I provided for him from my gasket kit), reassemble the head, and deck the surface. I've decided to ditch the metal HG and swap it for the OEM one I have on hand. The block is still in the car so milling the block to ensure a perfect mating surface with the head is not going to happen.

On a related note, I'm scrambling to try and find either some OEM replacement head bolts or an ARP head stud kit by tomorrow afternoon because I have to get everything back together by Sunday night. In my ignorance, I thought that I'd be able to reuse the old head studs but after a bit of research and a tongue lashing from my buddies about the sheer stupidity of doing that, I've decided to get some fresh hardware in there. Anyone know if there are any OEM head bolts that crossreference to a USDM nissan motor?

Also, since I'm swapping in the OEM headgasket, should I still use the copper gasket spray?

[Darius]

You can get ARP head bolts from JGY Customs for the RB25. They have them as cheap as anywhere I've seen. As far as spraying the stock organic head gasket, it can't hurt.

[kouki-gymkhana]

So I call the machine shop today to see if my head is ready to be picked up and the guy tells me he has good news and bad news....The good news is that the head is now planed and dead straight...The bad news he tells me is that one of the camshafts was BROKEN!!WTF!! UUUUGGGHHH!! How the **** is that possible if the car was running just fine?? I think the bastard actually broke my cam when he disassembled the head and is trying to pass it off as if it was broken when he got it. He said that when he pulled off one of the caps, he saw a big *** crack in one of the cams. I don't know exactly where yet but I'll be heading down there shortly to pick up the remains. I don't even know where to begin looking for another cam shaft that's suitable and in the country. I really can't wait 6-8 weeks for the slow boat to come over from Japan if I order from Nengun. I checked out takakaira but all they have is HKS cams for 350+ a piece.

I'm so bummed out right now, I can't even speak. You have no idea. It's been such a constant string of bad luck with this ****ing engine I'm almost ready to give up and sell the whole project for scrap. I've got almost 10 grand in the whole car already but it's going now it's going to take another 500-700 dollars and weeks of waiting just to get it back on the road!

Anyone have any leads on OEM cams? I have a very late model series II motor with the R34 RB26 style CAS (black plastic one). Any and all help would be appreciated.

[Carl H]

which cam is broken, you can use an s1 set with a cas swap or rb20 cam if its just the exhaust side.

[kouki-gymkhana]

Of course with my luck the ****ing bastard broke the intake cam clean in half and he won't even own up to it! From looking at the head, all he did was plane it, change the valve stem seals and throw things back together loosely. He didn't even reassemble the exhaust cam assembly or clean up the head otherwise. UUUGGGHHHH!! Now I have to deal with trying to reassemble it myself with the potential for breaking that one too. I'm going to have to start making some calls next week to see if I can source an intake cam or look about getting an HKS/Apexi/Tomei cam if I can't find an OEM one for a reasonable price. Once I get this issue is resolved and I put the engine back together I think I'm going to just sell the ****ing thing and buy a gutless econobox or something.

[98birdls1]

Man that sucks. I'm sure enough people swap cams that you should be able to find an OEM replcaement.

You need to find a better machine shop. It is very important you have a good, trusting relationship with your mechanic/machinist. They can really screw you over if they aren't looking out for you.

Luke

[Darius]

It seems like this issue has come up a couple of times here recently. Does anybody know if this is a factory flaw or material embrittlement? It doesn't seem like you could very easily break a 1" diameter piece of steel clean in half. Just by uninstalling it incorrectly. I had to wrestle a little bit with mine to get them to pop out.

As far as the shop goes, I would go after him hard and see what he says. You probably aren't exactly sure if it was finely cracked or not, but if you tell him you looked at it closely before you dropped it off and everything was fine, he might start back-pedaling. If so, get him to agree to paying for it or at least a large portion of it as it was a used camshaft. He probably broke the intake side and then was afraid to tighten down the exhaust side for fear of THAT breaking too and that's why everything was installed loosely. If the cam was really broken in the first place he would have installed the exhaust cam like normal, but I think he broke it and got scared of breaking the other one .

Don't get discouraged man. We've all been in the position where we were ready to have the wrecker pick the thing up the next morning and say eff it. You'll get this resolved, put your motor back together and be thrashing 16-year olds with hondas all day long.

[BoostFab]

make the shop pay for the replacement.

btw! if the RB25DE cams works on the DET, let me know i'll hook you up..