thanks to Picu for sharing the link, if you are looking for awesome no dusting pads i would highly reccomend these ceramicool pads, 4000miles and counting no dust :ylsuper
ceramicool pads
ceramic pads
-
C-Kwik
- Moderator
- Posts: 8070
- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:28 pm
- Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes....html
And actually, I'd generally prefer that the heat from my brakes go into the rotor. The rotor is designed to dissapate heat. The pad is not. However, the temperature of both is more dependent on how much energy you are converting by hitting the brakes. The Pad composition should be based on the type of use and the heat range it will operate in.
Also, SBS - Scandanavian Brake Systems, makes two types of ceramic pads that might work well for hard driving and track events. I'm not sure if they make any Nissan pads as of yet, but hopefully they will come around. I think a lot of motorcycle guys swear by the pads made by this company. I haven't seen a ton of feedback on them yet though. TireRack sells these. Maybe Grant has heard something???
And actually, I'd generally prefer that the heat from my brakes go into the rotor. The rotor is designed to dissapate heat. The pad is not. However, the temperature of both is more dependent on how much energy you are converting by hitting the brakes. The Pad composition should be based on the type of use and the heat range it will operate in.
Also, SBS - Scandanavian Brake Systems, makes two types of ceramic pads that might work well for hard driving and track events. I'm not sure if they make any Nissan pads as of yet, but hopefully they will come around. I think a lot of motorcycle guys swear by the pads made by this company. I haven't seen a ton of feedback on them yet though. TireRack sells these. Maybe Grant has heard something???
C-Kwik wrote:http://www.tirerack.com/brakes....html
And actually, I'd generally prefer that the heat from my brakes go into the rotor. The rotor is designed to dissapate heat. The pad is not. However, the temperature of both is more dependent on how much energy you are converting by hitting the brakes. The Pad composition should be based on the type of use and the heat range it will operate in.
Also, SBS - Scandanavian Brake Systems, makes two types of ceramic pads that might work well for hard driving and track events. I'm not sure if they make any Nissan pads as of yet, but hopefully they will come around. I think a lot of motorcycle guys swear by the pads made by this company. I haven't seen a ton of feedback on them yet though. TireRack sells these. Maybe Grant has heard something???
While i fully agree about the braking capabilities of ceramic pads as well as their fade resistance, etc... I do think everyone should know that they are not optimal for street use. Most offer poor cold and wet braking which could result in someone's demise. If you want the best of both worlds minus the no-dust, I recommend axxis ultimate pads...
c-kwick, your point"The rotor is designed to dissapate heat. The pad is not. However, the temperature of both is more dependent on how much energy you are converting by hitting the brakes. "
is exactly what I meant, cars that are heavy with relatively small(for their weight) rotors will warp them like crazy...
this varies by pad, of course(how much ceramic is in it) I do like the axxis ultimates since its a nice blend...
anyways, I just think people should be very cautious when going with ceramic pads.-chet
is exactly what I meant, cars that are heavy with relatively small(for their weight) rotors will warp them like crazy...
this varies by pad, of course(how much ceramic is in it) I do like the axxis ultimates since its a nice blend...
anyways, I just think people should be very cautious when going with ceramic pads.-chet
-
C-Kwik
- Moderator
- Posts: 8070
- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2002 9:28 pm
- Car: 2013 Chevy Volt, 1991 Honda CRX DX
Most cars are underbraked anyways. Heat levels regardless of pad will probably be similar from pad to pad. Pads designed to operate in a higher heat range generally outgass at a higher temperature. Warpage from heat is more of an issue of not having enough rotor mass and/or insufficient heat dissapation. If you are getting that much heat, the pad is hardly going to solve a warping problem. It may prevent or reduce fade, but it can't really absorb any more heat.
warped rotor mythhttp://www.stoptech.com/whitep...h.htm
-
Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
"Heat levels regardless of pad will probably be similar from pad to pad."
Not true! http://www.nlectc.org/testing/brakepads.html
Download the extensive detailed 202 page evaluation of different pads in rigorous conditions. "Equipment Performance Report: 2000 Evaluation of Replacement Brake Pads for Police Patrol Vehicles"
Showed pad brand variations of 730F-1130F front; 428F-1045F rear on a Crown Vic...........similiar variations on FWD Impala.
In every test the oem factory pads equalled or exceeded the best aftermarket pads in stopping distances hot and cold, while maintaining mid range temps. NAPA pads failed horribly in stopping 20 feet further, Various ceramics were middle of the road.Hawk and Satisfied almost met the performance of oem pads in a few test.
I always use the CV as a model: RWD, same brake setup, dual piston calipers front, single piston rear, roughly same diameter [12.4"x 1.1/11.1x0.55" ] exact thickness rotors as Q, J30.......ABS and extra weight [compared to J30] make the comparisons valid.
Not true! http://www.nlectc.org/testing/brakepads.html
Download the extensive detailed 202 page evaluation of different pads in rigorous conditions. "Equipment Performance Report: 2000 Evaluation of Replacement Brake Pads for Police Patrol Vehicles"
Showed pad brand variations of 730F-1130F front; 428F-1045F rear on a Crown Vic...........similiar variations on FWD Impala.
In every test the oem factory pads equalled or exceeded the best aftermarket pads in stopping distances hot and cold, while maintaining mid range temps. NAPA pads failed horribly in stopping 20 feet further, Various ceramics were middle of the road.Hawk and Satisfied almost met the performance of oem pads in a few test.
I always use the CV as a model: RWD, same brake setup, dual piston calipers front, single piston rear, roughly same diameter [12.4"x 1.1/11.1x0.55" ] exact thickness rotors as Q, J30.......ABS and extra weight [compared to J30] make the comparisons valid.
-
Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Each brand was tested in a 3 set sample and thermistors were imbedded in each pad to measure temp rise -----a really precison expensive test.
Highway patrol pursuit driving is probably rigorous enough to be valid for most drivers..........not an extended road race course but 10 stops from 90 mph with no cool down except time to accelerate [15 -20 seconds] is pretty severe.
Great logs/graphs showing pedal pressure, etc.Real world not some magazine single stop test......where easy to cheat because they practice to learn how to make the one they want come out the winner...........lets see did BMW buy a big ad this month lets try that test again.
Since manufacturers supply cars easy to substitue pads, even tires, reload ABS software, special cyrogenic treated rotors, do you think the magazine guys are smarter than the factory?
Highway patrol pursuit driving is probably rigorous enough to be valid for most drivers..........not an extended road race course but 10 stops from 90 mph with no cool down except time to accelerate [15 -20 seconds] is pretty severe.
Great logs/graphs showing pedal pressure, etc.Real world not some magazine single stop test......where easy to cheat because they practice to learn how to make the one they want come out the winner...........lets see did BMW buy a big ad this month lets try that test again.
Since manufacturers supply cars easy to substitue pads, even tires, reload ABS software, special cyrogenic treated rotors, do you think the magazine guys are smarter than the factory?
-chet-
Grant@tirerack
- Posts: 722
- Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:17 am
- Car: Auto racing (AMLS, Cart,F1,IRL in that order), old show rods, classic monster and bad sci-fi movies,
- Contact:
The blend of ceramic can have a great impact on how the pads work. As ceramic pads have become more popular, a lot of manufactuers have come out with their own versions. The problem is this, the compound has to be matched to the car period. I'm not going to name brand names here for obvious reasons but many brands of ceramic pads use the exact same formulation for every pad they make. What works fine for an Acura is not going to be the correct formula for a Crown Vic and that's exactly what we are seeing in the aftermarket on some of these pads. Even when it comes to O.E. pad formulations, the pad maker will develop multiple compound mixes for the vehicle maker to test and approve. The choice made by the vehicle manufactuer will often come down to price vs. how much they want to give up in customer complaints on noise, dust, etc... It's a balancing act to say the least. There are very few pad makers out there making pads that have a compound specific to the vehicle. Only one of the brands we sell has vehicle specific compounds for their ceramic pads and they are the major O.E. suppler for quit a few vehicle makers (that's how they know which compound blends work the best, they are the O.E. suppler for most major automotive makers). Even some of the performance pads for track use can vary in effectiveness when used on different cars. Dennis is correct. The bottom line is this, to work well, the compound has to be optimized to the vehicle.
-
Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
For example the front pads for 90-96 Q45 and all years of J30 are the same size [the mounting plates] [identical calipers and rotors] but there are 4 different oem pad compounds utilized depending on year.
All will fit, yet 400 pounds of vehicle weigh makes a big difference.
10% more weight [J>Q] will result in an at least 10% hotter pad and rotor for identical stops from the same speed.
The earlier versions of each car were more performance focused so their pads are semi metallic, later versions were promoted as more lux therefore more ceramic mixture was utilized.
There is a 10 foot difference in stopping distances under hot conditions under multiple 80 mph stops.
Metal Master buys the backing plates and fits what I believe is a slightly more metallic than semi metallic compound. This pad is noiseier and has a friction curve shifted upward by 100F compared to the best factory pad.
Very very few aftermarket pads are vehicle compound specific.
They don't change their compound depending on vehicle weight, so on a lighter than the model car they used for design...the pad maybe cooler on heavier it will be hotter.
Few cars are as heavy as the Crown Vic and Q45 and this shows up in the variations in performance. Pads that get hotter than oem were designed for lighter cars.
The factory is the only one that test pads on the car, almost everyone else just slaps their compounds on backing plates that fit...........
Other than the cost of labor [in the factory] pretty much all the materials cost roughly the same thing.........except exotic titanium oxides.
Copper is limited because brake dust gets into water tablehttp://www.city.palo-alto.ca.u...t.pdf
"One brake manufacturer showed us a cutaway of an offshore "economy" rotor for a particular vehicle that had 32 ribs. The OEM rotor, by comparison, had 37 ribs and provided up to eight percent better cooling than the economy rotor when tested in the laboratory. And because the OEM rib design ran cooler, pad life was 28 percent longer than the economy rotor."http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf10312.htm
All will fit, yet 400 pounds of vehicle weigh makes a big difference.
10% more weight [J>Q] will result in an at least 10% hotter pad and rotor for identical stops from the same speed.
The earlier versions of each car were more performance focused so their pads are semi metallic, later versions were promoted as more lux therefore more ceramic mixture was utilized.
There is a 10 foot difference in stopping distances under hot conditions under multiple 80 mph stops.
Metal Master buys the backing plates and fits what I believe is a slightly more metallic than semi metallic compound. This pad is noiseier and has a friction curve shifted upward by 100F compared to the best factory pad.
Very very few aftermarket pads are vehicle compound specific.
They don't change their compound depending on vehicle weight, so on a lighter than the model car they used for design...the pad maybe cooler on heavier it will be hotter.
Few cars are as heavy as the Crown Vic and Q45 and this shows up in the variations in performance. Pads that get hotter than oem were designed for lighter cars.
The factory is the only one that test pads on the car, almost everyone else just slaps their compounds on backing plates that fit...........
Other than the cost of labor [in the factory] pretty much all the materials cost roughly the same thing.........except exotic titanium oxides.
Copper is limited because brake dust gets into water tablehttp://www.city.palo-alto.ca.u...t.pdf
"One brake manufacturer showed us a cutaway of an offshore "economy" rotor for a particular vehicle that had 32 ribs. The OEM rotor, by comparison, had 37 ribs and provided up to eight percent better cooling than the economy rotor when tested in the laboratory. And because the OEM rib design ran cooler, pad life was 28 percent longer than the economy rotor."http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf10312.htm