Carry gun, convince me what I should get

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themadscientist
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I'm going back to the states in December for hopefully a month or two. I intend to pick up a new toy. I grabbed my rifles last time and a pistol fo the wife. This time Mad wants a carry gun.

I have my prejudices, I like 1911s and .45 ACP party favors, but I will entertain any good arguments for your chosen champion. Ignore those and pitch the gun you think is perfect for carry.

Price is not really a factor. I don't want to spend a buttload, but a quality gun is a quality gun and if it meets my needs the best and is not expensive simply because of the name on the slide price is irrelevant.

I am a small guy, about 5'10" and I am a proponent of actually concealing my "concealed carry" gun so a full size gun is too big.

I draw a hard line at 9mm. I like a few of the .380s and my wife's .22 is fun as hel, but this is a weapon I will be trusting my life with and I don't trust either of those calibers that much. I also must insist on automatics, sorry. I like wheelguns and intend to add a few to the arsenal at a later date, but not for carry.

I look forward to everyone's input. :wavey:


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BusyBadger
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I know your wife's .22 is a Walther, have you considered the PPS? It's one of the smallest and easy to conceal 9mms I've seen (it's THIN!), the Kahr PM 9 and the kel tec PF9 are in the same size range too. If you want, it's also available in .40, but that's seems like a heavy load for such a small pistol. I've also been considering Walther's P99C since it's just a tad bigger but I don't have to deal with it being DAO. I had a friend tell me that if I was so into Walther's that I ought to take a look at the PPQ, even if it is DAO, he said the short reset on the trigger feels like nothing he's ever shot before.

And no wheelguns? You strike me as being so old school that you'd be totally cool packing a J-frame in an ankle rig. :)

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themadscientist
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The P99 is a plan b if I can't get a supercool gun. I know my wife likes it and I could always give it to her at a later date. The Glock 23 is another plan B gun. Functionally, it's exactly what I want, but I just hate the way Glocks look. If I can't find a gun that meets my needs AND gets me excited, I'll marry the ugly chick that is faithful to me.

I like revolvers, but not for carry. I don't relish the idea of carrying a gun that empties that quick and is that much more labor intensive to load. I have two revolvers I would like to have, though, the 686 and 625 S&Ws.

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Mr1der
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look at a Kahr CM9.

6+1 of 9mm and very concealable but shoots a lot better than it's size would lead on.

I have the more expensive version in the PM9. Differences are the PM has polygonal rifling (not that big of a perk really) better rollmarks on the slide and the slide release is milled from stainless steel where the CM has a metal injection mold slide release. The CM is only shipped with one flush fit magazine while the PM comes with an extended 7 round mag.

there's about a 200 dollar difference between the two guns. 300 if you want night sights on the PM.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/76031

at about 450 once you pay a background and ffl transfer, it's still one hell of a good shooting pistol and easily worth the extra money spent over the Kel-Tec.

the Ruger LC9 is also another very nice option at a small, concealable pistol.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/73923

as for easy to conceal .45's....I'd say a 1911 Commander and a good holster.

Though if you like the 1911 style, you can always check out the Springfield Armory EMP

can be had in 9mm or .40 and the frame is a bit smaller than the standard 1911 all the way around.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/55468

Then of course, there's the officer 1911's and some more fun stuff.

the Concealed carry pistol market has simply exploded in the past 5 years. There's more good stuff than ever on the market these days.

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themadscientist
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I'm holding out that my gun shop can get that Kimber ultra for me, but for now I have an XDm 3.8 compact .40 lined up. :biggrin:

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Mr1der
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good pistols.

I'm not big on .40's though.

have you considered a CZ-75?

the little Rami is a fantastic shooter.

I love my XD45 but the CZ's are much more gun for the money. I rented a 75 compact a few weeks back and it was fantastic to shoot. It was honestly just about as accurate as the 9mm Dan Wesson Guardian I rented as well.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/21714

I'd say go for the all steel pistols but my god, that's a lot of pistol for not much money.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/62366

15 rounds of 9mm in that tiny package is nothing to scoff at.

they're kinda wide but very comfortable to hold.

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themadscientist
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I do like the CZs and the Rami always gets my attention. I'll probably have one eventually, but I'm just not a fan of 9mm. I am thinking about a PM9 as a BUG, but not a primary defensive gun. I am a big lover of .45 and .40 is about a small as I will go without there being something so attractive about the weapon. i think the PM40 would be too unruly as well as the PM45 so the 9 in this case would get the nod.

If I can find a 9mm EMP I'm in because it meets many desired criteria, but they are few and far between and the .40 has a rep apparently for being less controllable. The 9mm EMP would make a sweet house gun for my wife. She likes the 1911 and the smaller grip combined with a more managable caliber is just the ticket.

The one worry I have is accidentally trying to feed a .45 gun the 9mm mag in a rush or vice versa; have to code that stuff or keep it seperate at all times.

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Mr1der
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eh, a 9mm with a good load is fine for defense.

hell, the .38 Special FBI load is still a great self defense load.

my PM9, for it's size, is a fantastic shooter.

honestly, I wouldn't over look a good 5 shot snubby either. My Ruger SP101, while as heavy as a boat anchor, packs 5 rounds of .357 Mag in an easy to hide package that's very manageable (also very loud) with full magnum loads. And can be had at nice prices used. Did I mention they're built like a tank?

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themadscientist
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I like revolvers, just not for carry. I just came across the pitbull. It chambers .40 auto cartridges just like the SA 3.8 I just lined up. It might be a fun gun to add to the arsenal.

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perhaps. The newer Charter Arms are suppose to be good pistols again. The company's changed hands I think 4 times. the very early models and the newest are the only ones I'd consider owning.

the Bulldog is a fantastic gun. A proper .44 Special load is a very good defensive round.

there's nothing wrong with a revolver for carry though. but honestly, if you don't intend to carry it, I'd opt for a bigger frame with a 4" barrel. More versatile. And in a better caliber than .40

You need at least one .44 Magnum. It's the caliber I'd opt for if I could only have one gun.

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I'm not enamored with the .44. I enjoyed the Clint Eastwood movies and I have shot one, but it had zero appeal for me. If I am faced with anything a .45 or .40 can't stop I'll just grab my rifle.

The whole handcannon thing seems more testosterone driven than spawned from practicality. I got a weird look at a gun show when I showed a similar lack of interest in a desert eagle after the dealer gave me the whole "real man's gun" macho pitch and asked to see the P22 Walther instead. :biggrin:

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Mr1der
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the magnum serves more purpose as a hunting round.

it's a good bit of power in a much easier to carry package than a rifle.

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themadscientist
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The .44 does not meet any of my use criteria. I'm not a hunter. It's too big. It doesn't carry enough rounds. It's rediculously uncomfortable to shoot. It easily exceeds any reasonable stopping requirements I am ever going to encounter. It only retains novelty value and that's not enough of a reason to buy one.

I do intend to eventually pick up a 686 S&W in .357 magnum.
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It does not exhibit the last two limitations and it will have a buddy to share ammo with.
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For similar reasons I wish to get a 625 as well.
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It can share an ammo pile with my 1911s. That's why the bulldog appealed to me too with it's appetite for .40 like my XDm. I'm a practical guy and I don't want to have to stock a dozen different types of ammo. That stuff is expensive. :crazy:

This likely means that while I like how compact the Kahr P380 is and how the PM9 delivers close to twice the knockdown power in a gun only a little bit bigger and at a cheaper rate for ammo I will probably walk past both to pick up an MK40. I like that the primary carry gun and the BUG will both eat the same round and I'm not a fan of 9mm and .380 gives me downright pause. I'll likely get the MK to better tame the recoil with the weight of the metal frame and if the muzzle flip is still problematic send it out to get Magnaported. ;)

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I'm not big on 380's...most are either too small for my hands or big enough to where I should just get a 9mm instead.

I've been looking into a couple silly Keltecs lately.

the PLR-16 is beckoning me.

something about a .223 pistol that's piston driven and takes AR mags that can do a sub 1" group with good ammo and optics for right at 500 dollars sounds like a lot of fun to me.

and their PMR30. 30 rounds of .22 magnum in a pretty damn accurate semi auto sounds like fun. And honestly, for weaker shooters, if they can hold the big grip, a nice option for personal defense. .22 Mag isn't the best round, but doing a mag dump and keeping them all in a 10 circe at 7 yds is gonna take the fight out of about anyone.

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Mr1der wrote:something about a .223 pistol that's piston driven and takes AR mags that can do a sub 1" group with good ammo and optics for right at 500 dollars sounds like a lot of fun to me.
Got two of the three and I can't say enough good things about my 556.

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It throws a nice fireball. :crazy:

http://s119.photobucket.com/albums/o141 ... g_0001.mp4

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hah, yeah.

did you ever try any short barrel rifle ammo in it?

definitely a cool piece, I just wanna check out the PLR because of how damn cheap it is. Granted, it's made out of a lot of plastic....BUT Keltec does very good by their customers if they should have issue with the gun.

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Didn't need to. Initially it was doublefeeding and I had to turn it to the adverse setting to get it to cycle right, but I tracked the problem down to some slight corrosion on the piston from perhaps the factory test firing and sitting too long before being sold. It gulps down 5.56 nato FMJs like a fat chick at cinnabon now. I'm having a heck of a time finding an IWB holster, though. :chuckle:

I just put the order in for the supercarry.

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It's stupid expensive compared to the XDm and Glock, even the Kahr, but I think if I get anything less than exactly what I want I'll regret it. The Kimber is no Wilson Combat or Nighthawk, but it has the features I want at a price I can afford and if it runs well I'll be happy. :dblthumb:

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Mr1der
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the biggest advantage of the SBR ammo is higher velocity and less flash.

the SIg have a mount for a single point sling on the back?

Kimbers are usually pretty solid. I've railed on my uncle's TLE II for years now. It's never given issue and shoots fabulously

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themadscientist
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I like the muzzle fash. It looks like a photo shoot at my end of the range and everyone stops shooting to see what the hell all the racket and fireballs are. :chuckle:

It has a cap where the standard AR buffer tube would screw in that you can use to mount a sling swivel.

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I'm going to check on setting up a trust so I can SBR it with a folding stock. :naughty:

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Mr1der
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eh.

if you use a single point sling you can get a more stable firing position by putting a little forward pressure on the gun with the sling. and still counts as a pistol you can legally carry cocked and locked with a CHL

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I can shoot it well from a bastardized heavily modified weaver hold without a sling, but I'd like to be able to shoulder it sometimes. WTF would I want to carry that in public? While I do own a leather trenchcoat I don't want to wear it all the time to hide the SWAT team entry gun slung under my arm.

If the secret service calls me and says they need some backup and they heard I have some artillery, know how to use it and can drive the limo in a spirited manner, ok, but otherwise it's just rediculous...

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think of it as a car gun.

incase s*** gets REAALLY bad.

A handgun is for fighting your way back to your rifle or in it's case, "pistol"

That's my intended purpose with the Kel Tec.

keep it in a man purse or laptop bag.

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themadscientist
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Man bag you say?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iViePaAFu0w[/youtube]

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themadscientist wrote:I'm having a heck of a time finding an IWB holster, though. :chuckle:

Tita would keister carry that thing with ease

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themadscientist wrote:Man bag you say?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iViePaAFu0w[/youtube]
You're better off with a briefcase. ;)

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Or, something completely different to catch someone off-guard with, the Magpul FPG.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZi2oIz89yY[/youtube]

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I won't pick up anything for a few days. I did get a chance to check the two closest gun shops in the area.

As I suspected the P380 was crazy tiny, but felt really good in my hand and is still on the list for a BUG. Similarly, the K40 was like a sexy Italian sports car and I could easily see it as a main carry gun. I really loved the look and feel of a compact steel gun like that and it slid into my hand so naughty and comfy. The PM45 was significant. It's so friggin small for packing .45 in that tiny grip. I would have to shoot one before buying it, but if the recoil wasn't too punishing I could see carrying that as well.

The XDm 45 3.8 compact was big pimpin. It felt a bit thick, though, and I am hoping when I go to pick up the XDm .40 it will be slimmer to make up for the fact that it doesn't hurl that big chunk of anger like the .45 does. Had I known at the time there was a .45 version of the 3.8 compact I would have reflexively got that, but it was a chunky gun to be sure, real thick, maybe too think to be comfortable and concealable. Perhaps the smaller .40 stacks in the other gun a bit more compactly. I'll see next week.

I grabbed a couple of Sigs and the P239 was nice and heavy, but holy crap, WTF is with the squared off front on the grip? It felt really awkward with sharp edges on both sides where the sides transitioned to the front and it felt like the sides were too skinny and needed to swell up considerably to meet my palm. I handed that back. I wanted to try the P250, they had one, and I was pleased. Unlike the ergos on the 239, the 250 was damned near perfect. I like the cutouts in the grip frame to snatch hold of the mag and the trigger could easily be spread over popcorn, it was butta! I like DAO guns, but they must have a smooth trigger. The 250 was a country mile long, but it was a nice paved road, smooth with no potholes. The gun shop guy mentioned, and I had to agree that the exposed end of the slide showing the stainless tangs of the firing group on and otherwise black gun was a bit aesthetically sinful, like a thong hanging out of a chick's jeans. Sorry, I think that s*** is pathetic and unsightly.

For S&G I grabbed a Ruger, Alaskan? It was a huge chunk of steel spinning .44 mag and pushing it through what looked to be a 2" barrel. Good lord man, I could drive framing nails with it! The gun shop guy said, "wait, look at this one" and handed me a longer barrel titanium frame .44. I almost hit myself in the face with it in anticipation of weight that was very much missing. It felt like a small Glock's weight, firing that slug? Are you f*** kidding me? I might want to jerk off from time to time and that flyweight 44 is sure to hurt Rosie.

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yeah, the Smith and Wesson 329 is not something I'm in a hurry to shoot.

The Sig 250 has been a big dissapointment and I wouldn't be surprised if it goes out of production within 2 years.

also, get a Kahr CM9.

my PM9 is identical in size. Fantastic shooter for it's small size.

Trust me yo! The XD45's, considering how much of a payload they have, feature a very small grip. I have size XXL hands though so a 1911 is quite small. The Sig 239, while a fantastic pistol, is too small for me to personally wanna buy grip wise.

I say that after loving my tiny PM9 though....

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What was a disappointment about the 250? The interchangeability is interesting, but of zero value to me. I would by the gun in the caliber I liked and be done with it.

I don't want the poor man's PM9. If I went that route I would just get a PM9. More likely I would get an MK40 if I was getting that size Kahr. I don't like 9mm much.

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I picked up my XD-m and went to the range with a friend today. The gun was upgraded with trijicon night sights for an extra c-note, but they are the s*** in fading light.

Holding it, it fits my hand perfect and I can just get my pinkie on the grip. With the full size mag with grip shell I have a lot of unused grip. The grip safety does'nt bother me, but you do need to depress it to rack the slide which is a bit weird. I arrived at a grip that will allow me to lock it back, though. I must say loading the mags is a straight b****! I haven't quite figured out the loader, but I need to. filling the mags gave my thumb a workout. I seem to remember the Glock being markedly easier to load, but they are a bit wider in my guestimation, the XD-m seems to stagger the rounds tighter.

First shot from about 15-20ft bulls-eye and I got the vibe. You know when you have picked right whenever the item is used the first time and just gives you a warm fuzzy. The sights were still coming back down as I thought "this is the one." I didn't have a lot of time to run it because my buddy brought a f*** arsenal and wanted to fire them all.

I tried his .40 Sig P239 rainbow coated thing. I already hated the grip profile and I wasn't real happy about the muzzle flip. Very pretty and I still like the way it looks, but this is a tool and I don't like the way it works.

Next up the .40 Sig P220. I've never been fond of this gun's appearance. It looks like an elevator ride and I was right. I thought the HK USP had some muzzle flip, sheesh, not even close to this gun. 0 stars.

The Sig 1911 was, well, a 1911. The design is very attractive to me, ergonomically compatible with my hand size and shooting style and it ran like a top so I liked it just like every other quality 1911 I have shot.

Now I took the .40 Sig P2022, wow! The ergos are great, it looks good and recoil was very manageable. He was raving about it and I see why; it was the nicest Sig in the bunch. I will add this to the list with the P250.

His Colt Anaconda was a large piece of steel and I found it workable. I think I need to choke up on the grip a bit and the trigger is a country mile long, but for what it was and how new I was to it I did ok and was not displeased.

From that, though, we moved on to a gun he just bought for his son. He handed me that and I was nauseated. The .357 Chiappa Rhino
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Now, I get the idea, move the barrel to the bottom and reduce muzzle climb and it does exactly that. It pushed straight back into the web of my hand,,,really f*** hard. It's too light and while I doubt it approaches the abusive nature of a scandium snubby it sure as hell was not enjoyable. I would not take one if you offered me $20.

The next and final gun was the Kahr P380. The range had a rental one so I grabbed it to try. I wanted to like it so much, but, I don't. I have small hands and even my pinkie is hanging in the breeze. combine that with the fact that it is so thin you are left with no dimension to really grab. As a result, even with .380 it squirms around in your hand and my shots were all over the place. I was able to squeeze some consistency out of it by, squeezing! Squeeze it as tight as you can and you can get some semblance of a decent group out of it, but it's just too small and wild. Because of its size my finger would hang up on the trigger gaurd unless I bent it. The trigger was pissing me off too. I keep hearing the Kahrs have nice triggers, but if this is how they all feel, no thanks. I have never shot any gun that had that much trigger travel before it went bang. It was smooth, but long as Dr. Zhivago including intermission! Combine that with the .380 ammo, more expensive than 9mm and eclipsed by the same in power all at a few dollars less than a PM9, it's a no-brainer. Sorry little guy.

I need to go back again with just the XD-m and run it hard. It shot very well both in accuracy and manners with both the Speer Lawman 180gr and the 165gr Winchester white box. I couldn't discern a real difference between the two. I might try alternating the two in the same mag and running a couple of strings to see if I can tell which is which. Everything being anywhere close to equal, unless I can find definitive proof that the light stuff perhaps expands better from the faster rate of travel, I'm loading it up with 180gr. I have Winchester Ranger talons and Federal HSTs to check for feeding. My buddy had a misfeed with one of his guns with what appeared to be a Remington Golden Saber and was going to chuck it. I said "let me try it." XD-m said nom nom, no problem. :bigthumb:

Very happy with the gun and look foward to really putting it through its paces.

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I still need to get a few boxes of the HST's for my XD45.

it LOVED the 230 hydrashoks. I'm hoping it'll shot the hst's as well.

I swear, it was an easy 2" off hand group at 15 yds with those...I was giggly and excited and suprised.

and yeah, I can't say enough good things about the PM9. Kahr's double action trigger is just fantastic.

The Sig 2022 is one of the best buys in the market right now. Fantastic pistol for the price.

the P250 just doesn't seem to shoot like it should.

It's why the price on them is about 300 dollars lower than what it was when it was introduced.

The Rhino does not interest me at all.

I'm very happy with my dimunitive Ruger SP101 however. 5 shots of .357 Magnum in a very manageable package (they're f***' heavy for the size)

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