Carb Legal RB, &/or SR theory!

[Death By Thrash Metal]

Yeah so i cant belive i hadnt thought of this before!!! When you swap an engine, and you make it run on alternate fuel and have it approved as an alternate fuel engine swap, you get carb exemption FOR LIFE. You can even get pulled over and they check under your hood and they cant do squat to you (unless you were speeding or something like that).Now, its more of determining how to get that certification. Im currently doing research, and i will let you all know the details.Any way i think you could very well drive a little with propane in ur engine, it shouldnt be to hard to get the right A/F ratio shouldnt it?If we can get a guide up for making a carb legal RB or somthing... well you know....But i CANNOT BELIVE HOW I DIDNT THINK OF THIS BEFORE!!!!!!!!!!
Modified by Death By Thrash Metal at 9:27 PM 9/3/2007

[sommmatt]

.......................

[Death By Thrash Metal]

^ it would have helped for a little more imput! In theory we could just fool smog stations into giving us the carb exemptions... cosmetical things are far easier than actual real life prototypes.Does anyone have any experience with this kind of thing? In Europe many cars were modified for propane, but i think I personally have the best probablity with Electrolysis. That should be easy, and my dad will actually want to help. (dont give me the bull **** that i cant do it. Father has been Electrical Engineer for 40years now, it should be on par with a joke to make an electrolysis cell, but for a car it should be a little harder)Donations would help this dream come true, and if somone could hook me up with a very cheap gutted out 240sx (all i realy need is chassis, trans, and a list of all things missing, to a decent degree) that doesnt smell horribly bad, this can become a reality in the near future. but that would not be very likely to find one for a free! i dunno... PM me if you have any interest, even for sale we may be able to negotiate somthing reasonable for both of us! only in an ideal world!
Modified by Death By Thrash Metal at 6:09 PM 9/3/2007

[S13Teddy]

If you could do this, you would be named "God", but good luck getting there....

[Death By Thrash Metal]

LoL it wont be easy, but i do have a local college that my dad works at with MANY resources. I first want to do research to make sure i can actually get carb exempted. if anyone can give me any info on this and any money/ parts ect i will definatly give you tons of credit. But first is the research. Depending on budget ect, this will probably take most place during this summer: i have many honors classes and i procrastinate, so i will be busy for most of the school year. Teddy i like ur sig, nice nissan u got there!

[Death By Thrash Metal]

Alright i have one way in theory pretty much made Sorry I will not post it untill i have considered saftey; ignition temp, a/f ratio, ect. This way may not get the carb exemption, but it will at least make you pass the actual carbon test. I am definatly unsure of engine damages, and turbo damages, but im betting that a few minutes wont harm somthing as strong as an rb25det.Electrolysis will not be an easy one, considering my dad says he wont be free until next summer... so that one will be postponed.Considering the people i know i could vary well (if this turns out to be a good idea) turn this into an actual kit, and dont worry, if you contributed i will get you a wholesale price, and there will be plenty of group buys i promise.Unfortunatly i cant afford to buy all the stuff i need for testing... but i can say that when the results are out (if positive) it will be safe on your engine, at least for the smog testing. If some of my posts are deleted for *consistancy issues* please ignore that, and carry on... that will most likely be for legal reasons for everyones benifit (myself and anyone who would do this to his or her car).Ive got some baseline ideas but this first one is looking hella good!~edit~The great thing is that the first fuel type doesnt need very much modification, and should run on the standard engine, but turbos will definantly be rendered almost inefective. I have a few ideas that are easy to do for injection of this fuel. The biggest problem is getting it to have a good a/f ratio because it will most likely run in tandem with gasoline, just like the others. But because of its properties it will actually be better than gasoline for your engine (damage wise). So this actually is looking VERY good!But ofcourse things are easier said than done!Perhaps moderators could rename this thread "Smog (even Carb) efficient RB/SR theory" or somthing like that, and moved it back into the 240sx area? That would be much appreciated!

edit2Bad news, the rb cannot be Carb legal, but it can pass the carbon exhaust test, with modifications. The visual test is the somthing you can counter by simply swaping/faking engin tops and somehow hiding the turbos/superchargers. That isnt to difficult to acheive... But my biggest concern is the OBDII test... i really dont know squat about how it will react... And if the guy sees that its all in japanese... lol you get the idea.But, NOT ALL HOPE IS LOST! i have many ideas to get past the sniffer, and one way or another i will find a way! wether it be fuel change, exhaust specific mod, special cat i will find a way! And as you all know if you can find a lazy shop that only does sniffer and visual check you can easily get past them. it may take longer than i had hoped but it can be done!There are grants you can get for finding alt fuels and tech, soo... perhaps i may put myself deeper into this and go that route. But that would not be very likely. Gov+me=fight.
Modified by Death By Thrash Metal at 10:12 PM 9/3/2007

[duffman1278]

Have fun on that project lol but if you manage to get it LMK! Asap

[Death By Thrash Metal]

Alright so i have some info:Bar Referee stations can give you a sticker that makes your swap LEGAL.Now because i dont have any info of anyone trying this^ but, if you look at what makes a JDM swap legal it is:Of similar car (passenger coupe in this case)Of similar or exact engine (sr na could pass easily here, and if you can prove 2.4l vs 2.5/2.6l)and some other stuff (i forgot)Well heres the thing. The Ref guys dont really care too much about your OBDII results, but mostly about your emissions IT SEEMS. Bcuz i dont have one within 100 miles of me, i really cant reach one to talk to them. So heres what i think will help you pass:Getting your carbs and Nx levels low is key here! get a new cat (or KA cat) and install it on your RB or SR. I would bet stock 240 cat and exahst would be BEST here. Now thats not all:The way they test for Co2 levels is by simply measuring ppx (parts per x i dunno wat x is in this case) so if you get more clean air INTO the area where they measure, you can get a lower mixture. Now my first idea is a little bit difficult, and not very well made YET. Basicly there are paint ball air tanks. they hold a decent amount of pressure and last a good amount of time. You will need 1 of those and a pressure regulator, a drill and a few long wires. (oops forgot hoses ect! rubber hoses wont hold up to exhaust heat obviously so you will need at least a little bit of metal hose)Also if you add a mister you can clean the air a tiny bit but that i am leaning AGAINST because of the risk of low exhaust temps= ref going wtf adn you getting ****ed up. But the rust that would result wouldnt matter cuz u using ****ty *** oem 240 exhaust! Basicly you want to inject that air into your exhaust so that the ratio of co2 to air ect reduces. This can be tricky to get an even mixture. the key there is simply in the nozzle and how it sprays the air. So theres the basic theory, and this weekend i will try and take alook at how much pressure ect the tank can hold. i have a few ideas for hidden mounting so you can pass even rigourus entire car visual inspections.The next theory is very simple as well. I still need to research the specifics of density of oxygen vs carbon ect. Drilling holes in your exhaust is an interesting way of controlling your thermo dynamic properties. The lightest parts of the air would rise and hopefully exit holes in the exhaust on the top, (may be carbon but not sure). then if i can figure out where the gasses flow in the exhaust we can determin where you need to drill on the pipe for exit of those exhaust fumes. This can be very dangerous though as if your car is red flagged b4 they may take off teh exhaust and closly inspect it. that is why this is very limiting for a few smaller than a pencil in diameter holes are ok.I may find a few better ways of entering clean air into the exhaust but as of now that is a good bet. Ill make a far more indepth theoretical tut this weekend as tests are among me . We would need a ginea pig to go to a ref station and try to pass but this is very risky as they could really flag you and you would probably have a hard time or even loose your car (<not super likely tho).For the ref station make sure you go to the place on your OWN time a few months b4 you think you will get a letter in the mail. Act over the top nice like if you are talking to somone with a bomb. Also be like: "i just did this swap and i want to make it legal, could you help me with it?" considering more than a few honda ricers got their jdm swaps legalized i dont think that even an sr would be too bad to get legalized. I have seen a newer american truck with an old 67 v8 swap get legalized so... i dunno.I originally got this idea way back when, when i read a superstreet article way long long time ago at my mom's friends house. her son was the one who got me into cars (bought me one of my first modifyable rc cars, and taught me what kind of hp you can get outa what car) and that article is one of the first tuner mags ive ever read.So please keep flaming and down. if you think there is somthing wrong here just post it dont call me a nub, constructive critisim shows maturity, supportless critisim shows nothing but a bored looser.oh and remember to install colder spark plugs or at least new spark plugs, as they can reduce Nx levels. You also may want to have a buddy of yours that works at a smog check station check your levels for you ect, so you can tune your car accordingly and see if those theories do somthing.Again this is just theories and is in very early stages. the exhaust may not be legal, but it is hard to find unless they specifically look for it ( y did i post this on enet? ). Please dont run out to a ref station untill somone tests this out and has success! For your own good!

[duffman1278]

http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=132325

[Death By Thrash Metal]

im gonna be honest... i think i suck at searching ive done more than a few days of searching and didnt find that... but thats just a petition. this is flat out way that can make it a legal way (technically) to get an rb or sr to pass.i dont have time to read the whole thing now but ty for link added to favs. but cmon now, you have to admit im onto somthing here... (if u look at that link you can see pple pass sniffer but not visual, i dont see how a smog refferee wouldnt pass you)~edit~ read last page, seems they were trying to pull amotorex type deal. Also its dissapointing to see they dont have faith in the BAR section...maybe this will wither and die under the homosexual accepting and dissaproving government of california?but i think at least you can pass smog with the air injection (the sniffer) with a little bit more hp, or like a turbo setup and u can just raise thte boost later u kno?ill see what i can do for the tops and fooling these sobs. if they dont look really closly they probably wont notice, and according to that thread they can pas ka-ts so if you pass ur rb or sr as a ka-t... well.... u know u can have a more legit car.... i am trying to get ahold of some pple (lawyer, and bar reps) for info direct from the source. I dont want to fail in finding a way unless i kno 100% its not possible.there is always the fake ref sticker route tho....

[Death By Thrash Metal]

http://www.performanceforum.co....htmlthings like that keep my hopes up... im going to do a recorded (with video camera) call to a center and see what they say, possibly this weekend. I wont tell them that it has been recorded untill ive got all my info i will need.Man i hope it will work!

[duffman1278]

i hope it does too...

[Big_E-Dog]

ok heres the deal...

i tried this with my maxima(87 with a vg30et in it) and the ref told me that if it isint sold in the US then youll have to do the same thing that nissan did to get their cars here, take it to the CARB ppl and have them test it if its good then youll get a sticker, if it aint then youll have to do the repairs and take it back, but im guessing that if one person does it correctly then we all can do it just dont know about the testing fees.

now if the motor and the car were sold in the US then it can only be a legal swap from motor to motor only if they have the same drivetrain setup (rwd or fwd) it is illegal to have a rwd motor in a fwd car (information from the southwestern ref station talked to a mike) or vise versa, them im like well the maxima came with a vg20et in japan what about that, since it wasnt sold in the US then i couldnt even use it as an example

so from what i was told youll have to go to the CARB ppl and do it the right way unless you have faulty smog shops around. (have yet to find one, but if you know of one in the SD area hit me [email protected])

[jdm_master_X]

this is already being done and has been detailed so many times you can beat a dead horse.

either way there arent enough people who are willing to go through the complications of all this. thats what under the table business is for.

[kamikazestorm420]

now if the motor and the car were sold in the US then it can only be a legal swap from motor to motor only if they have the same drivetrain setup (rwd or fwd) it is illegal to have a rwd motor in a fwd car (information from the southwestern ref station talked to a mike) or vise versa, them im like well the maxima came with a vg20et in japan what about that, since it wasnt sold in the US then i couldnt even use it as an example

if you are swapping a motor into a car, it has to be from another car with all the smog equipment intact. (if its a suv, it has to go to a suv. you cant put a suv motor inside a car)

btw this has been done in california. forgot his username but someone does it in socal already.

[Death By Thrash Metal]

this is already being done and has been detailed so many times you can beat a dead horse.

either way there arent enough people who are willing to go through the complications of all this. thats what under the table business is for.

i hate acting like a jerk but:(edit begin: i personally would far rather have a legal rb25det with 300hp, than a 800hp non legal monster...and it would probably cost near the same by what your saying...)why has NO ONE above heard about this? Or when i search stuff carb legal nissan swaps and stuff like that i, why dont find anything useful?post a link, & save me and everyone else some time or just take that back.if you do post a link then prais to you! otherwise your just a jerkoff.but if i cant get a legal swap, ill look into passing all the tests at a smog station. We can pass sniffer, thats been proven, but obdII is a *****. On monday i am going to stop by the auto shop, and on thursday im going to go to auto club meeting... i heard they have engine diagnostics there so i may be able to find out some stuff about emulating KA passing signals, through a computer or a bogus ecu. Then there is the visual... thats the most straight forward but most difficult to pass. Like i said above we will have to hope (for the RB) that the guy doesnt pay to close attention... but you know you could construct a cover for your headers to look like 4 down pipe, and even weld on a faux carb #. Then all you need is a fiberglass repro to scale of a KA cover, but hiding the turbo wont be easy... nor making an oem lookalike air intake for the turbo...sorry i didnt call a ref station today, i came home and crashed till about 1/2 an hour ago (4-5hrs sleep on the couch makes me feel human again).Ima go do research and update accordingly.I dont want to be a gotse butthole, but if you guys could do some research and theories/brainstorms that would greatly help. If i am the only one doing research and contributing... well this could take forever (semi-limited resources).
Modified by Death By Thrash Metal at 9:57 PM 9/7/2007

[Death By Thrash Metal]

if you are swapping a motor into a car, it has to be from another car with all the smog equipment intact. (if its a suv, it has to go to a suv. you cant put a suv motor inside a car)

btw this has been done in california. forgot his username but someone does it in socal already.

wait on NicoClub? hookup link or info plz or like other one of my posts above... i hate bs.I got an annonymous email tip (well couldnt figure out his name better to keep him annonymous) something about this... even if it is a "legal" way i will still consider it whoever you are!EDIT A DAY LATER:Well perhaps you could use a VQ top and plunem, oem intake to cover up the RB. It is pretty massive, and VQ swap are legal. Maybe get the plunem with dual intakes to cover more up? that would be a good idea...
Modified by Death By Thrash Metal at 7:37 PM 9/8/2007

[Death By Thrash Metal]

Vq top is 17x21 inches depending on where you measure 18x21. the oem intake is: bout 30 slightly curved inches without the entrance to the plenum incluede just the plastic air intake thinger. that can cover a decent bit of area wouldnt u say? and a stock plenum and maybe aftermarket cover shouldnt be to much, especially the stock intake considering how many pple change that immediatly.!edit!This will likely be my last post, or at least for a week depending on how much i po'd themadscientist.I have decided that RB swap is what I will do over the summer, rb25 or rb26 depending on how well my job pays and if my dad gets a raise. First of all I am going to say faking out an OBDII test is my new top priority, and it will 90% probability run on a laptop, hooking up to a stock 240sx ecu and fooling it into thinking all portions of the engine are running a ok. Next there are the consequences: you cannont have the rb ecu hooked up to the full tac (bcuz o engine light check ect) and the likely hood of it is that you wont have a light telling you when to change oil unless you install a switch from ecu and what not (complicated to explain breifly due to the complexity of the wiring harness).Secondly, once I establish the fake ecu passer program and conversion wire, I will look into making an rb legitimatly pass OBDII by using a stock ECU from a USDM ecu from another car, possibly the 300zxtt. Where I might be able to get it to actually do on board diagnostics not just fake the ecu into thinking it does.I would look out for this forum in about 3-10months from now (yes that is a very broad time frame) for updates. I cannot say forsure if i will sucseed but, I will try.Thanks,Death By Thrash Metal
Modified by Death By Thrash Metal at 6:45 PM 9/12/2007