Car is falling in and out of alignment (1993 240sx)

[Shift__BODOM]

I tried searching but nobody has my specific problem. I'm not positive it's actually falling in and out of alignment, but that's the best way I can explain it.

Symptoms:

While driving, my car will be acting perfectly fine. Release the steering wheel and it drifts very slightly to the right, just as it should and the steering wheel is straight. If I make a left turn too sharply or too quickly, or stop too quickly using the brakes, it will "fall out of alignment". If I down shift to slow down, no matter how quickly I slow down, it doesn't trigger this "misaligned" condition.

Whilst in [what will be henceforth referred to as] the condition, my car will drift HEAVILY to the left, and the wheels will make excessive noise. Also, on a smooth road or over painted stripes the tires will squeal similar to a hard cornering event. The steering wheel also must be turned quite a bit to the right in order to maintain a correct heading. My steering also loosens up significantly when the car is in the condition, and if I let go of the wheel, the car will turn itself quickly in each direction with increasing violence until I grab the wheel. To somebody outside of the car it looks like I'm swerving around in the lane.

The only way I've found to correct this condition is to turn the wheel almost all the way to the right while moving. The steering feel immediately firms up and the car straightens out. I accomplish this usually by turning into a nearby parking lot or driveway.

Visual Inspection:

Upon looking at the front suspension, my tie rod end ball joint boots are torn and worn out. The control arm ball joint boots are also significantly torn, and the ball joints themselves are dirty and devoid of grease. Also, it seems like the control arm on the drivers side is slamming into the rotor shield, as evidenced by the deep scratch marks on it. (see image) Aside from that, everything else looks to be in working order. When I replaced the bushings in the front with Energy Suspension units, I had a chance to inspect everything. The control arm and rod end boots being torn worried me then, but this problem wasn't as bad as it is now, so I put it off. Probably a bad decision on my part.

Pictures (click to enlarge):

Driver's side -

The yellow circle highlights the torn boot. You can't see it from the angle I took the pic at, but you can see the actual ball joint. The red circle highlights the deep scratch marks on the rotor cover.

Passenger's side -

Difficult to tell, but there are no visible marks on the passenger's side rotor shield. The boot on this side is pretty shredded as well.

Sorry for the long post, I wanted to include as much info as possible. If there are any suspension experts on here, I'd really appreciate your input. I've gone over this problem and I can't figure it out. Hopefully someone can help me.

Also, it's never been in any major wrecks. Just two fender benders at low speed that didn't do much damage. Had a separate shop look at the frame after I got it straightened on the first occasion, and it was confirmed to still be straight after the second.

[driftingmy240sx]

have you checked the front steering and suspension parts for play or just visually looked at them? with the wheels raised try shaking the wheels to see if the feel loose side to side or up and down.

[Shift__BODOM]

Ack, I keep forgetting to do that. I'll put it up tomorrow and see what the play is like.

As I said in the OP, the suspension parts are in good working order. The only problem is the tie rod end and control arm bushing boots are all torn with the ball joint showing. I know those are a problem, but not sure if they are the problem. Ya know?
Modified by Shift__BODOM at 4:10 PM 4/30/2008

[Shift__BODOM]

There's a little bit of play when I wiggle the wheels (outside the car with my hands at the 3 and 9 o'clock position) with the steering wheel locked, and the same amount when the steering wheel is unlocked. It's a very small amount of play and there's no clunking.

A few weeks ago, I took it to my local mechanic to see what he thought it was and he said that the rack might be worn out. When jerking the steering wheel back and fourth (with the wheels off the ground) there is no play in the wheels and no noise, leading me to believe that the rack is fine. I'm not an expert on the topic so I'm not sure.

I'd have to disconnect the tie rod end and control arm and check for play, and I figure if I'm gonna go through all that hassle, I might as well just replace them all since they're all ripped up anyway.

I just wanna know whether these torn boots (and possibly worn out ball joints) are causing my problem. This is the last repair I need to do on my car, mechanically, and I'll be able to use it regularly again and stop bumming rides off my parents and friends.
Modified by Shift__BODOM at 1:01 PM 4/26/2008

[Shift__BODOM]

Bump

[Shift__BODOM]

Nobody knows?

I really don't want to start blindly replacing parts, but I need this thing to run reliably so I have no choice. I'd take it to a mechanic, but mine seems to think it's the rack, and the others around here are pretty dumb. One actually told me my problem was because my front tires were 2 different sizes, when they were identical tires.

I'm desperate, help me out fellas.

[Shift__BODOM]

As much as I hate to necropost, I almost feel obligated to reach out at least one more time to the community here at NICO.

In the past 4 months or so I've been fixing small problems on the car here and there, but mostly keeping it locked up for the summer. The other day I took it out for a drive and noticed something strange. At low speeds, no matter which direction the wheel is turned, this seemingly misaligned condition will rear its ugly head, though the right-hand turn at speed (anything over 5-7 mph) will always remedy the situation.

Well, one day in a parking lot, I accidentally triggered this condition and parked. When I got out, I noticed that the passenger side wheel seemed to be toed out a bit. Of course, I'm no expert, but this would lead me to believe that either the rack is bad, or that the tie rods are somehow adjusting themselves. Now, I haven't replaced anything yet since I don't have the money to start guessing at which parts to replace first, and the couple of mechanics I have taken the car to both shrugged their shoulders and told me to replace the tie rod ends. That's a good start, I suppose, since the boots are all torn anyway, but for some reason I just haven't taken the leap and tried it yet.

I didn't mention this before, but I had gotten an alignment in an attempt to fix the problem before it got really bad, and when the alignment tech tested the brakes he said it pulled like a mother. On the way home I realized that this problem, while probably not caused by him, was definitely made worse after being in his care. Don't know if this matters, but I'm trying to put as much info out there as possible. Another thing I realized is that the deep scratches that are mentioned in the first post were a result of me trying in vain to get the control arms out when replacing the bushings. Stupid me, I know.

Would it be a good idea to get the tie rod ends and at least see what happens or should I think about looking elsewhere? I'm really stumped and it's hard to diagnose a problem as strange as this without some kind of equipment or spare parts. Like I said before, money is tight these days and I need to know for sure before I buy anything.

[vancouverbc]

try taking pics with a flash. to get enlarged pic you have to select no to thumb nail and then refresh.

you might try to brake suspension etc forum. these forums are split up so much that the traffic is low.

if the boot is gone on your ball joint , you need to replace ball joint. or better, replace the entire control arm for about $50.

[Shift__BODOM]

Ya know what I didn't even think to try the suspension forum.

Major facepalm moment...

[carmo]

I don't see how a couple of bad ball joints could cause that big of a problem and not be painfully obvious. Have you looked at the steering stops. Maybe theres a problem there where the spindle contacts the lower control arm. A friend of mine was able to find a complete "rebuilt" rack online for $80. That would eliminate inner and outer tie rod ends and the rack itself. Also, local auto parts store will sell just ball joints where as the dealer can only sell the whole control arm. goodluck and I'm gonna try to find the sequel in the suspension forum.....

[2ndcar]

Have you tried bleeding the brakes? How are your rotors on the car? It would definately be a good idea to change the tie rod ends, you're going to have to do it eventually any way. It will also help narrow down where your problem is, if that doesn't solve it.

[Shift__BODOM]

Thanks for the help and ideas guys. As for the brakes, I just changed the pads/rotors thursday and the problem isn't gone, but I didn't expect it to be. As for the tie rod ends, yeah I'll have to replace them eventually, I was mainly wondering if anyone else has had this problem and what it turned out to be.

Since starting this thread, I've started working at an auto shop, and we've been trying to hunt this problem down in our spare time, and have all pretty much unanimously decided it's the rack, so in the coming weeks we'll be replacing the rack, PS pump, lines, and rod ends. Since we get the parts at cost and I've got a more steady cash flow than when I started this thread throwing parts at the problem isn't gonna be too much of an issue anymore, thank god. Hopefully we can get this problem sorted out. I'll keep everyone posted as we progress.

Also, I probably won't make another thread in the suspension forum unless replacing the rack and whatnot doesn't fix it. I just wanna say, though, thanks to everyone for putting in your ideas and helping a fellow 240 owner out. That's why I love this community. I'll keep everyone posted as updates occur.

Thanks again everyone.

[Shift__BODOM]

Well, I got the problem fixed.

I put a new power steering pump and pressure line as well as a reman'd rack today, but it didn't solve the problem when I test drove it. We lifted the car up and poked around on the front suspension and found out that the bolts for the control arms were finger tight!

Tightened them down, problem went away. Gonna bring her in to get aligned tomorrow morning.

Moral of the story? Always stick to Occam's Razor. Look for the simple sh-t first.

[carmo]

Congrats on the fix. Hard lesson learned. I've been there many times.

[xekushnr]

Moral of the story? Always stick to Occam's Razor. Look for the simple sh-t first.

Great advice

Are you a CoB fan or something? Their new **** sounds horrible but you cant beat the stuff they made on Follow the Reaper.

Anyways, I'm glad you got things worked out. I wonder how that control arm got so loose?

[Shift__BODOM]

Not much of a fan anymore, I'll listen from time to time but I suck with usernames so I just looked around and there was a CoB cd sitting on the desk. Wish I could change it somehow.

I probably didn't tighten the bolts down enough after I installed my front end bushings, or when I took it to get aligned the guy forgot to tighten the bolts.

TBH, I think I forgot to torque them down and the alignment guy probably didn't even mess with camber even thought I bought the FULL alignment. Meineke FTL