Candidates' positions on Iraq differ less than you'd think

[96Qowner]

There is another answer. Perhaps when McCain clarifies his war position per the Times request (which he refuses to do) he can address what he really meant by those comments many don't want to hear. In the mean time let's just pretend that he didn't mean, or that he didn't say them okay? Nice try, but you'll have to dig a pretty deep hole to bury McCain's faux paux with that one.

I suppose offering you the opportunity to explain what he meant isn't fair either. So we should just pretend he really didn't say it, right?

Name calling doesn't really divery attention from your weak point now does it?

Oh boy, Bob, maybe I WAS wrong about you. But I'll go along and assume you still haven't heard the clip or an explanation from McCain (highly suspect).

So, here's the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFknKVjuyNk

Here's the transcript:

Q: President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years — (cut off by McCain)

McCAIN: Make it a hundred.

Q: Is that … (cut off)

McCAIN: We’ve been in South Korea … we’ve been in Japan for 60 years. We’ve been in South Korea 50 years or so. That would be fine with me. As long as Americans …

Q: [tries to say something]

McCAIN: As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. That’s fine with me, I hope that would be fine with you, if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Queada is training and equipping and recruiting and motivating people every single day.

You DON'T understand what McCain said and meant, right? Somehow, to such a bright person as yourself, this sounds like McCain wants war in Iraq for 100 years, am I right? If not, what do YOU think he said?

[smockers83]

You want GW2nd. in January, you won't see it.

You're losing sight of the epiphany you just had, come back to the light! Fight it!

[rn79870]

Again, your being arrogant in assuming that we know what's best for a country that doesn't want us there. McCain, and for that matter, the current administration refuse to admit, even with overwhelming evidence, that we have out lived our welcome in Iraq.

Not harming America? Being there 50 years, or 100 years costs money. Money that could be better used for American programs and American people. Money that comes from American taxpayers. Is McCain this blind?

96, that thing you tripped over and ignored - that was the truth.

[smockers83]

Alright, I'll return to being serious again.

Somehow, to such a bright person as yourself, this sounds like McCain wants war in Iraq for 100 years, am I right? If not, what do YOU think he said?

Thank you, this is what I've been arguing for as of late. McCain does not plan on being in combat for the next 100 or 1000 years. If we stay there, his plan is to have something similar to what we have installed in Europe and Asia, neither of which we are controlling and saying what's best for them.

[smockers83]

Not harming America? Being there 50 years, or 100 years costs money. Money that could be better used for American programs and American people. Money that comes from American taxpayers. Is McCain this blind?

Again, I'll ask a question I posed earlier that never really got answered besides "oh its completely different."

With what you just said there, why then are we not talking about our installments in Europe, Asia, Saudi Arabia, and other places where we have been for decades? What's the difference between those and this?

[mtcookson]

Doing a quick search... something along these lines is what I see McCain meaning when he says 100/1000/whatever years:

Army Airfields, Army Camps, Army Barracks

Armstrong Army Heliport, Buedingen, Hessen, GermanyBrasschaat Army Airfield, Brasschaat, BelgiumBucholz Army Airfield, Kwajalein Atoll, Kiribati, Marshall IslandsCamp Able-Sentry, Macedonia, Kosovo, SkopjeCamp Bondsteel (Army), Macedonia, Kosovo, UrosevacCamp Comanche, Bosnia-HerzegowinaCamp Doha, Kuwait City, KuwaitCamp Eagle (Army), Wonju, KoreaCamp Gary Owen (Army), Munsan, KoreaCamp Henry (Army), Taegu, KoreaCamp Monteith, Macedonia, Kosovo, GnjilaneCamp Page (Army), Chunchon, KoreaCamp Udairi, Kuwait City, KuwaitCamp Walker (Army), Taegu, KoreaCochran Army Airfield, Camp Stanley (Uijongbu), KoreaColeman Army Airfield, Mannheim, Baden-Wuerttemberg, GermanyCombat Maneuver Training Center (CMTC) - Hohenfels AAF, Regensburg, Bayern, GermanyConn Barracks (AHP Schweinfurt), Schweinfurt, Bayern, GermanyDesiderio Army Airfield, Camp Humphreys (Pyongtaek), KoreaDyess Army Airfield, Roi-Naumur, Kiribati, Marshall IslandsFliegerhorst Kaserne (AAF Hanau), Hanau, Hessen, GermanyFort Kobbe (Army), Colon, PanamaGiebelstadt Army Airfield, Giebelstadt (Wuerzburg), Bayern, GermanyGrafenwoehr Army Airfield, Grafenwoehr, Bayern, GermanyHanau Army Airfield, Hanau, Hessen, GermanyHeidelberg Army Airfield, Heidelberg, Baden-Wuerttemberg, GermanyHohenfels Army Airfield, Hohenfels (Regensburg), Bayern, GermanyKastner Army Airfield, Camp Zama, JapanKatterbach Barracks Army Airfield, Ansbach, Bayern, GermanyPatton Barracks (AAF Heidelberg), Heidelberg, Baden-Wuerttemberg, GermanySchweinfurt Army Heliport, Schweinfurt, Bayern, GermanyStorck Barracks Army Airfield, Illesheim, Bayern, GermanyStuttgart Army Airfield, Stuttgart-Echterdingen, Baden-Wuerttemberg, GermanyWiesbaden Army Airfield, Wiesbaden-Erbenheim, Hessen, Germany

Air Force Bases (Non CONUS)

Ahmed Al Jaber Air Base, KuwaitAkrotiri Royal Air Force Base, Akrotiri, CyprusAl Dhafra Air Base, Abu Dhabi, United Arab EmiratesAl Udeid Air Base, Al Udeid, QatarAlconbury Royal Air Force Base, Huntingdon (Cambridgeshire), UKAli Air Base, Nasiriyah, IraqAli Al Salem Air Base, KuwaitAndersen Air Base, Yigo, GuamAviano Air Base, Aviano, Pordenone, ItalyBagram Air Base, Parvan, Charikar, AfghanistanBalad Air Base, Balad, IraqBitburg Air Base, Bitburg, Rheinland-Pfalz, GermanyCamp Adder (Ali Air Base), Nasiriyah, IraqCamp Anaconda (Balad Air Base), Balad, IraqCha Shan Air Base, Hualien, TaiwanCheong Ju Air Base, Cheong Ju, KoreaClark Air Base, Balibago (Luzon), PhilippinesCroughton Royal Air Force Base, Croughton (Oxfordshire), UKDiego Garcia (Air Force), Diego Garcia, BIOTEinsiedlerhof Air Station, Kaiserslautern, Rheinland-Pfalz, GermanyEloy Alfaro Air Base, Manta, EcuadorEskan Village Air Base, Saudi ArabiaFairford Royal Air Force Base, Fairford (Gloucestershire), UKFeltwell Royal Air Force Base, Thetford (Norfolk), UKGanci Air Base (Manas Intl. Airport), Bishkek, KyrgyzstanGeilenkirchen Air Base (NATO), Geilenkirchen, NRW, GermanyGhedi Air Base, Vicenza, ItalyGreenham Common Royal Air Force Base, Greenham (Newbury), UKHahn Air Base, Hahn, Rheinland-Pfalz, GermanyHoward Air Base, Panama City, PanamaHualien Air Base (Cha Shan), Hualien, TaiwanIncirlik Air Base, Adana, TurkeyIstres Air Base, Istres, FranceIzmir Air Base, Izmir, TurkeyKadena Air Base, Kadena, Okinawa, JapanKandahar Air Base, Kandahar, AfghanistanKapaun Air Station (KNCOA), Kaiserslautern, Rheinland-Pfalz, GermanyKhanabad Air Base, Khanabad, UzbekistanKhost Airbase, Paktia, Khost, AfghanistanKimhae Air Base, Pusan, KoreaKing Abdul Aziz Air Base, Dhahran, Saudi ArabiaKing Fahd Air Base, Taif, Saudi ArabiaKing Khalid Air Base, Khamis Mushayt, Saudi ArabiaKunsan Air Base, Kunsan City, KoreaLajes Field Air Base, Terceira Island, Azores, PortugalLakenheath Royal Air Force Base, Lakenheath (Suffolk), UKMazar-e-Sharif Airbase, Mazar-e-Sharif, AfghanistanMildenhall Royal Air Force Base, Mildenhall (Suffolk), UKMisawa Air Base, Misawa, Honshu, JapanMolesworth Royal Air Force Base, Huntingdon (Cambridgeshire), UKMoron Air Base, Sevilla, SpainOsan Air Base, Osan, KoreaPaya Lebar Air Base, Sembawang, SingaporeRamstein Air Base, Ramstein, Rheinland-Pfalz, GermanyRhein-Main Air Base, Frankfurt/Main, Hessen, GermanyRichmond Royal Australian Air Force Base, AustraliaRiyadh Air Base, Riyadh, Saudi ArabiaSan Vito dei Normanni Air Station, Brindisi, ItalySembach Air Base, Kaiserslautern, Rheinland-Pfalz, GermanySeoul Air Base (K-16), Seoul, KoreaSoesterberg Air Base, Soesterberg, NetherlandsSola Sea Air Base, NorwaySoto Cano Air Base (Camp Picket), Comayagua, HondurasSpangdahlem Air Base, Spangdahlem, Rheinland-Pfalz, GermanyStavanger Air Base, Stavanger, NorwaySuwon Air Base, Seoul, KoreaTaegu Air Base (K-2), Taegu, KoreaTallil Air Base, Nasiriyah, IraqTaszar Air Base, Pecs, HungaryThule Air Base, Thule, Greenland, DenmarkTorrejon Air Base, Torrejon, SpainUpper Heyford Royal Air Force Base, Upper Heyford (Oxfordshire), UKUpwood Royal Air Force Base, Ramsey (Cambridgeshire), UKWoomera Air Station, Woomera, AustraliaYokota Air Base, Tokyo, Honshu, JapanZweibruecken Air Base, Zweibruecken, Rheinland-Pfalz, Germany

Marine Corps Air Stations, Marine Corps Bases

Futenma Marine Corps Air Station, Okinawa, JapanIwakuni Marine Corps Air Station, Iwakuni, Honshu, Japan

Naval Air Stations, Naval Air Reserve Center, Naval Bases and Stations

Agana Naval Air Station, GuamAtsugi Naval Air Facility, Sagamino, Honshu, JapanCubi Point Naval Air Station (Subic Bay), Olongapo City, PhilippinesDiego Garcia Naval Support Facility, Diego Garcia, BIOTGuam Naval Base, GuamGuantanamo Bay Naval Air Station, CubaKeflavik Naval Air Station, Reykjanes, IcelandLa Maddalena Naval Support Activity, Sardinia, La Maddalena, ItalyLajes Field Naval Air Station, Terceira Island, Azores, PortugalMisawa Naval Air Facility, Misawa, Honshu, JapanNaples Naval Support Activity, Naples, ItalyRota Naval Air Station, Rota, SpainSigonella Naval Air Station, Sigonella, Sicily, ItalySouda Bay Naval Support Activity, Chania (Crete), GreeceSubic Bay Naval Base, Olongapo City (Luzon), PhilippinesYokosuka Naval Station, Yokohama, Honshu, Japan

[smockers83]

Again, your being arrogant in assuming that we know what's best for a country that doesn't want us there. McCain, and for that matter, the current administration refuse to admit, even with overwhelming evidence, that we have out lived our welcome in Iraq.

You're really going to make me do it huh? Here comes the polling data from across Iraq.

Q3. What is the single biggest problem facing your life these days?The answer US presence/occupation garnered 5% of the answers. People are at least twice as concerned about jobs and the supply of electricity, 10% and 11% respectively.

Q7. Not personally, but in terms of Iraq, what in your opinion is the single biggest problem facing Iraq as a whole?The answer US presence/occupation garnered 6% of the answers. People are at least twice as concerned about security/safety and terrorlst attacks, 13% and 12% respectively.

Now to the more obvious conflicting information.

Q9. I would like to ask you about today’s conditions in the village/neighbourhood where you live. Would you rate (insert item here) as very good, quite good, quite bad, or very bad?The security situationVery good 20%Quite good 42%Quite bad 27%Very bad 12%*Numbers taken from March 2008. 62% say its good in some form, 39% say its bad in some form. The goods are up from about 48% from last year. Now just remember this is a random sample of Iraqis all across Iraq, in each province and district. So it should be noted that security/safety has increased all through Iraq from the previous year.

Q10a In the past six months has the security situation in this neighbourhood/ village become better, become worse, or stayed about the same?Become better 46%Become worse 17Stayed about the same 36Refused/I don't know 1

Q11 Same as 10, but Iraq as a whole.Become better 36%Become worse 26Stayed about the same 37*Nothing too conflicting here with Q10, just that 10% shifted to worse.

Q12a [ASK IF Security Situation has “become better” in Q11] Who do you feel deserves the most credit for this improved security?Iraqi Army 13Iraqi Police 18Muqtada Al-Sadr 5Awakening Councils 8Iraqi Government 26Other 30*As I said in my previous analysis, essentially all of the domestic influences have been mentioned, leaving the other essentially to the US and Coalition forces. However, it should be noted that this 30% represents 10.8% of those polled.

Q12c [ASK IF Security Situation has “become worse” in Q11] Who do you feel deserves the most blame for this worsened security?US forces operations 20Militias 13Al Qaeda 9Neighbouring countries 6Politicians/political groups 11Iraqi Government 9Parties and their militias 18Other 14*Mention the US and you get a comparatively response along with Parties and their militias. This 20% represents 5.2% of those polled.

Q14. I am going to name a number of organizations. For each one, please tell me if you have a great deal of confidence, quite a lot of confidence, not very much confidence, or none at all?The Iraqi ArmyGreat deal of confidence 28Quite a lot of confidence 37Not very much confidence 24None at all 11The Police Great deal of confidence 33Quite a lot of confidence 34Not very much confidence 20None at all 13 US Occupation Forces Great deal of confidence 4Quite a lot of confidence 16Not very much confidence 33None at all 46Awakening CouncilsGreat deal of confidence 16Quite a lot of confidence 40Not very much confidence 27None at all 9Refused/don’t know 7*They have a lot of confidence in the police and army, yet those that said security was better didn't give them a lot of credit. A majority have confidence in the Awakening yet barely anyone attributed it increased security as well. Mention the US and you get a strong negative answer yet most that said security was better essentially accredited to US and coalition forces without mentioning the US or coalition.

Q15 Thinking of the current national government of Iraq, how do you feel about the way in which it has carried out its responsibilities? Has it done a very good job, quite a good job, quite a bad job, or a very bad job?Very Good Job 13Quite a Good Job 30Quite a Bad Job 30Very Bad Job 26*56% don't approve of the government's job. Further....

Q16. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Nouri Kamel al-Maliki is handling his job as prime minister?Approve 40Disapprove 58Refused/don’t know 2*So to say the government is in alignment with the Iraqi people could be slightly off base based on the facts presented here.

Q20 Do you strongly support, somewhat support, somewhat oppose, or strongly oppose the presence of Coalition forces in Iraq?Strongly Support 7Somewhat Support 19Somewhat Oppose 31Strongly Oppose 41*It is clear with the wording of this question that they don't want us here.

Q21 As you may know, the United States has increased the number of its forces in Baghdad and surrounding provinces in the past six months. For each item I name, please tell me if you think this increase of U.S. forces has made it better, made it worse, or had no effect.Security in the areas where these forces have been sentBetter 36Worse 53Had No Effect 10Refused/don’t know 1Security in other areas of IraqBetter 30Worse 49Had No Effect 21*This goes directly against reports that violence is down nearly 90%. This also conflicts with the data in Q9 where 62% of those all over Iraq said security was better. Said differently, this question presents viewpoints of the outside world which conflicts with localized data.

Q22 How long do you think US and other Coalition forces should remain in Iraq? Should they leave now, remain until security is restored, remain until the Iraqi government is stronger, remain until Iraqi security forces can operate independently, remain longer but leave eventually, or never leave?Leave now 38Remain until security is restored 35Remain until the Iraqi government is stronger 14Remain until the Iraqi security forces can operate independently 10Remain longer but leave eventually 3Never leave 1*According to this question, only 38% of Iraqis want us to leave now or ASAP. The rest reflect McCain's goals. Leaving politics out of it, Iraqis want us to stay until we finish the job.

Q23 Overall, do you think the presence of US forces in Iraq is making security in our country better, worse, or having no effect on the security situation?Better 27Worse 61No Effect 11*Slightly different question than 21, but goes against previous results as well. Can't necessarily draw the same criticisms as in 21 but if one looks at previous questions I've posted, you may see what I'm talking about.

Q24 Groups called Awakening Councils have been organized in some areas of the country with the support of the Americans in an effort to restore security. In these areas where they have been created, do you think these Awakening Councils have made security better, worse, or had no effect on the security situation?Better 51Worse 16No Effect 31Refused/don’t know 2*All the while that only 8% in Q12a credited the Awakening with increased security. However, to figure out the true data behind this question, one needs to ask those who said Worse in Q11 about ways and who can be accredited with security improvements.

Q26 Thinking about the political action of other people, do you find each of these items to be acceptable or not acceptable?Attacks on Coalition forcesAcceptable 42%Not acceptable 57Refuse/ don’t know 1

Q32 As you may know, British forces have mainly left Basra province in recent months. Since the British left, do you think the security in Basra has become better, become worse, or remained the same?Better 28Worse 38About the same 31Refused/don’t know 3*What has happened

Q33 If the American forces left the country entirely, do you think the security situation in Iraq overall would become better, become worse, or remain the same?Better 46Worse 29About the same 23Refused/don’t know 2*What has yet to happen. This goes against what has happened. So do they really know?

Q34 For each item I name, please tell me if you think the United States should or should not have a future role in that area:Providing training and weapons to the Iraqi armyShould 76Should not 23Refused/don’t know 1Providing financial aid for reconstruction within IraqShould 73Should not 26Assisting in the security of Iraq in terms of IranShould 68Should not 31Assisting in the security of Iraq in terms of TurkeyShould 66Should not 34Participating in security operations against al Qaeda or foreign jihadis in IraqShould 80Should not 19Refused/don’t know 1*A supermajority exists in each one. So you're telling me they want us out? This proves exactly the opposite. And if they oppose us so much, why do they say this. And if they approve attacks against us, why should we want to help them in this way? Conflicting information again.

Q43 Do you think the separation of people on sectarian lines is a good thing or a bad thing for Iraq?Good thing 7Bad thing 92*This question has nothing to do with anything we're talking about, but it was a surprise to me to see a call for diversity along these lines. I don't know why it did, just media fed misconceptions I guess. Awesome!

Also, this post will be posted in the thread in which I asked for statistics in its entirety and unchanged less this statement.
Modified by smockers83 at 5:55 PM 7/22/2008

[96Qowner]

Doing a quick search... something along these lines is what I see McCain meaning when he says 100/1000/whatever years

Yeah, oddly enough, it seems to be the Obama supporters that can't comprehend the transcript or the video clip. Go figure. It's obvious to the rest of us.

[rn79870]

Thanks Smocky, your poll basically proved my point. They really want us out.

Now, address the Iraqi council voting to get ask the US to leave ASAP. Address al-Maliki wanting us to withdrawal troops ASAP.

[rn79870]

Yeah, oddly enough, it seems to be the Obama supporters that can't comprehend the transcript or the video clip. Go figure. It's obvious to the rest of us.

I'd really like to visit your dream world sometime. Living there must be really great.

[smockers83]

First I'd like to address you. My post does not, in any way, shape, or form, prove your point by any means. It just doesn't because it in fact disproves your point. What do you have to say about Q34 with a supermajority wanting us to stay? Or any other question that contradicts the data that you like to quote? You cannot deny the direct data pulled from this poll of the Iraqi people.

Now I'd like to address the Iraqi Council and al-Maliki. Please see Q15 and Q16. The majority of the Iraqi people disapprove of the Council's job and al-Maliki as well. Obama can even be quoted as saying that the Iraqi public and tribal leaders are concerned that we will leave too quickly. This goes to show that the government and its prime minister, as I said in my analysis, is slightly out of touch with its people. Again, it goes against you.

[rn79870]

Smocky, one poll doesn't an fact make. I've given 5 sources to your 1.I rest my case .

[smockers83]

You've given me 5 sources quoting the same guy saying the same thing. That does not count as 5 sources, trust me on that one, I've made that mistake before (although I didn't know it at the time until afterwards). At one news conference, hell, there's probably 30 sources you could find right there yet they're all reporting the same thing. 5 sources would be the equivalent of 5 different people saying the same thing from different areas, backgrounds, or even countries. My source, the source that you also claimed as a good find, single-handedly takes down your 1 or 2 sources that are multiplied into 5. But 1 or 2 sources against 1 source isn't that bad. Are you also saying that I would have to conduct 4 more polls in order to get a good response? Well, all the polls by Gallop here in the US can be thrown out as well.

[AZhitman]

"5 sources"?

Bobby, I respect your POV. I love it when you push me to try harder. I even like it when you make a solid point and I'm left with nothing but to agree.

This ain't one of those times.

[rn79870]

Yep, 1 + 1 + 3 = 5.

But hech Greg, I found a picture that I posted in the other thread that is certainly worth 1000 words.



Your guy is so far in the corner that the slightest wiggle on his part will put him somewhere close to his brother satan. I thought you were a Ron Paul supporter, did you notice where he was?

[rn79870]

You've given me 5 sources quoting the same guy saying the same thing. That does not count as 5 sources, trust me on that one, I've made that mistake before (although I didn't know it at the time until afterwards). At one news conference, hell, there's probably 30 sources you could find right there yet they're all reporting the same thing. 5 sources would be the equivalent of 5 different people saying the same thing from different areas, backgrounds, or even countries. My source, the source that you also claimed as a good find, single-handedly takes down your 1 or 2 sources that are multiplied into 5. But 1 or 2 sources against 1 source isn't that bad. Are you also saying that I would have to conduct 4 more polls in order to get a good response? Well, all the polls by Gallop here in the US can be thrown out as well.

Sometimes Smocky, good find means you've played into my strong suit like you did with a poll that you've conveniently "analysed" for your benefit. That was not unlike the Bush administration telling us that the economic indicators do not show a recession - no one believes it. Fortuantely, when I analyse it, I get a different result - a result that argees with the 5 different sources I've posted over the last three days. I said different because, contrary to your claim of them being the same, ABC news is different than the Times, which is different from the UK source, etc.

[smockers83]

Yes, when you get a result like yours where you concretely conclude that they want us out, I automatically find bias in that conclusion in that you only looked for the information you wanted because I can also find information that says otherwise. There's also bias in your conclusion knowing your stance on what's going on. To be completely honest, I don't really care what happens, its not my decision and the two candidates are much more a like than they are different in this area.

Bob, I'm not disagreeing with you that there is some evidence of them wanting us to leave. Its clearly there and I included it in my analysis. But in my huge long analysis, the point of that was to show you the information that conflicts with your point of view, but I also included every question that included, in some way the United States or Coalition forces--in that manner I did not leave any data out, I just didn't, at least not intentionally. My goal was not to just prove you wrong because you are partially right, but only partially. It again cannot be decisively concluded that they ultimately want us to leave completely and for good. The evidence for a concrete conclusion like that just doesn't exist. As for the economy, I'd love to get a chance to do an analysis on it and I'm sure I would get something worse than what the Bush administration is saying because I won't obscure the data, I would normalize it, harmonize it, and put it into real terms instead of nominal terms. My conclusions are always just looking at the pure facts because if I don't someone can try tearing my paper apart and it therefore fails. I'm not going to argue about your 5 sources anymore, I will just say that try running that by a professor when the requirement is a minimum of 7 sources and see what he says when he gives you a failing grade--happened to me.

I'm really not trying to argue with you, I'm trying to push you to see the whole picture for your benefit. I think you have a cataract in one eye, allowing you to only see half of what you should be seeing and I'm your surgeon.
Modified by smockers83 at 3:01 PM 7/23/2008

[AZhitman]

Actually, according to economic indicators, this is nowhere near a recession.

Then again, "Chicken Little" politicos (fearmongerers) would have you believe the Earth is being harmed irreversibly, the economy is leading us straight into a depression, and we're witnessing the fall of western civilization.

More on this later.

As far as the war issue, when Iraqi nationals can vote in the US, I'll give a crap about what they think.

For now, I'm taking my cues from the guys on the ground who see the day-to-day reality, not "Oscar Proud" over there bleating on and on like he thinks he's the leader of the free world.



p.s. Obama believes "success" is defined as no more "suspicion" between Shia and Sunni factions, which is prima facie evidence of his ignorance of world affairs. Does he not comprehend that this will never change? Where's Tariq when I need him to chime in?

Love your cute charts, Bobby.

[smockers83]

Actually, according to economic indicators, this is nowhere near a recession.

I would agree with that. We're seeing some inflation, not too many job loses. The unemployment rate that jumped from 5 to 5.5% recently wasn't due to lost jobs--hardly anyone lost their job. Not sure what the current rate is. Also, employment is a lagging statistic, so the layoffs we're starting to hear about are in response to something that has already happened. If we continue to see these layoffs for an extended period of time with decreased GDP, then we can seriously start considering a recession. Right now, we're just in a cycle, its just that people are upset which pushes view points to the extreme.

[rn79870]

Smocky, you sound like GWB.