CAN system + Gauge Cluster Swap

Nissan 350z / Nissan 370z technical discussion forum: Maintenance, performance, installations, modifications, how-to's and troubleshooting.
HELMMF
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:25 am
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx
2006 Infiniti FX35

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I have searched google and even this forum as well as others to find out what I can about Nissan's CAN system. I own a 95 240sx and plan on swapping in the 370z's vq37vhr. No one has done this that i have found for various reasons. However, I feel the swap could be the beginning to long future for this car. I'm not trying to be flamed for this as i could "swap in a vq35 or ls1 much easier". Just here to gain knowledge on nissans CAN system. Seeing as i do NOT like the 370z gauge cluster.. i looked at other Nissan gauges and i like the GTR's (R35). I know it also uses the CAN system. This isnt the old days nor a honda where a couple swapped wires and you now have any gauge cluster you want. However, I want to be able to swap the GTR cluster in instead. I am asking for someone's insight on the cluster swap or even whats required to swap any device in a nissan CAN system. If someone could tell me who to contact i would appreciate that as well (and not nissan...).
I have little knowledge on this system and just want to know if this would be even remotely possible. My thought is how would the gtr cluster react to a 370z mt shift position indicator.. seeing as the gtr is an automatic.. And are the signals from the ecu/ecm going to be the same or different for all gauges and lights. Once again, any information would be great. thanks ahead of time. :dblthumb:


jerryd1987
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:25 am
Car: 03 350z many mods inc next year

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all the cars use different clusters, pulses, and systems to run the guages even with a harness and computer its unlikely to work. i havnt looked at it too much however you will probably need wheel speed sensors, stock ecu, stock cluster, bcm........pretty much the entire 370z electrical system to get all the guages to work in a swap your best bet is to use aftermarket guages like speed hut.

to use the gtr guages your going to need the entire wiring system from that car and swap over to a gtr ecu with gtr sensors and gtr heads

HELMMF
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:25 am
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx
2006 Infiniti FX35

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Ok thats what i started to learn after looking in the fsms a little. Didnt figure it would be easy but worth the idea lol so basically i have to have all my sensors aftermarket. I dont have time at all this week to look at the fsm but is every sensor in the system part of the can system too? Cuz if so the engine harness would be a real pita! Thanks for the reply!

jerryd1987
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:25 am
Car: 03 350z many mods inc next year

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think your misunderstanding how the can system works, the engine sensors go to the ecm anything else requesting info from those sensors then gets it from the ecu over the two can wires, guages get there info from the bcm after info has been sent to it over the can wires. the can system is literally just 2 wires that connect all the different modules in the car its a major pain in the a** though. aftermarket sensors wont work at all unless they have the same signal as what your trying to replace, ie you can run a vq37 on a vq37 harness and ecu and just use aftermarket sensors to get gtr guages to work.

like i said best option is swap in the vq37 with harness and stock ecu(or stand alone, not sure if anything can handle he vvel though) and then use aftermarket guages that work with the nissan signals or are programmable to whatever signal you need, exception being the speedo im not if the 240 has a cable or electric speedo and where its located. if its a diff or hub based sensor you can go with a programmable speedo, if its trans mounted sensor or cable you will have to get a aftermarket sensor setup or gps based, gps is way easier imo.

HELMMF
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:25 am
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx
2006 Infiniti FX35

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Wow man. Thanks for the great info. Ill look today on the 240 fsm to see about the speed sensor. And yeah a little misunderstanding cuz the only multiplexing ive dealt with and thats in my current job working on the b1 b0mber. Multiplexing is a real pita. Lol but it serves a great purpose. I wish i had some way of finding what pids the gtr cluster requires. I did look at speed hut and they have some nice stuff. But i seen a gtr cluster on ebay for 200 bucks. Just wish i could "hack" the ecu and use opensource and configure all the settings i need to lol thanks again and ill do some deep reading and let you know of all the findngs, if any haha.

*Update: The 1995 240sx has a transmission mounted VSS. That WOULD be a problem so id have to go gps speedo or swap the entire abs system over somehow from a 370z haha. not a chance. however, I did find that the nissan silvia (s15) has a differential mounted VSS. And another positive note: the s15's final drive ratio is 3.692. The 370z final drive ratio is also, 3.692. So i get the diff from a s15 and it bolts right up, keeps gear ratio the same, and allows me to use any speedo i need basically. I will need to use the stock ecu.
Which brings now another question.. What all is required for the vq37vhr to start and run properly without any codes lighting up? Specifically targeting the CAN System. I looked at the fsm and there is ALOT tied into it. we have A/C, the gauge cluster(Combo Meter), steering angle sensor, Air bag diag, bcm, dlc, abs, ipdm.. just too much that i wouldnt need and just not having them would throw a code or light wouldn't it? Thanks again. I will most likely do aftermarket gauges, but still doesnt solve all the problems haha
Last edited by HELMMF on Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

aleena212
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:17 am

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hi,
Friends, Really very nice information about CAN System.you give brief description about CAN system after doing lots of searches .
Thanks for shearing this great Info.It is is very helpful for me.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2013 MERCEDES BENZ SL-CLASS

HELMMF
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:25 am
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx
2006 Infiniti FX35

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glad it can be used for others. Im looking for all the info i can on it and stumble on a little more each day. i learn why people aren't trying more of these complicated swaps, but i dont want that to stop me or anyone else. we shouldnt let new technology prevent us from these new swaps. I am looking to get this swap into my car and it be inspection legal. but i know what that requires alot. after i achieve this though, i can assist many others with it.
My biggest problem is the gauge cluster. I wanna use a factory one whether it be from a gtr, 370, s15, s14. either way id like for it to function properly which is a pita for the can system. the 370z ecu is a can type. any gauge cluster running off a can system cannot just receive a signal (vss for ex) and show it on the gauge. it runs to the ecu and the ecu via can sends it to the cluster to show. the differences in where these systems get their signals is whats making this difficult for me. haha thanks again for your guys' help.

*Update* I have decided to look into what it is required in order to just keep the stock s14 cluster. It seems to be the easiest method now that i look into it (Due to wanting to keep this looking like a factory swap). Now, there are 2 problems. One is more solvable for me and that is converting signals from the vq sensors to operate lights/gauges properly on the s14 cluster. The second problem i have is the MIL/CEL. The biggest problem here is that MIL (malfunction indicator lamp/"service engine soon light") in the 370z is ran by CAN and the Combination Meter (Gauge Cluster). There is no wire that goes from the Data Link Connector to the cluster, it is all CAN into the cluster. Which means if i want the MIL to ever notify me or anyone of a problem, I have to either run the 370z cluster, constantly check with a scan tool, or find a way to make some sort of module to connect CAN to the MIL. Looking through the FSM it seems that the CAN-MIL operation is that CAN not only tells it to turn on or blink, but CAN tells the ECU whether the bulb works basically. So, on to my question.. Does ANYONE have an idea where to find a module that will communicate with CAN to a wire for my MIL in the s14 cluster. Or even how you could design such a module? Thanks


This is my idea of the module I would need to make this work. Any thoughts/input?
Image

jerryd1987
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:25 am
Car: 03 350z many mods inc next year

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Like I said bro to do this you have to run EVERYTHING, the ecu relies on the ipdm to control several functions, the ipdm relies on every other module to function correctly, those modules require all there sensors to function correctly.

Then you want to to be inspection legal too? Sorry not gona happen, general motors had to make a specific ecu for there swap kit to work, nissan offers no such option.

Its not that its not possible its that this is going to cost you thousands upon thousands just to have a meh engine that can't handle stock power levels without a massive oil cooler. The reason people don't do it is because you can swap in a ls for cheaper, more power, and more reliability.


Heck people don't even swap in vq35hr's into vq35de cars(350z/g35) because even that isn't feasible. A couple have, and it has cost them multiple thousands(read 5k+) just in wiring and engine management solutions on a stock engine(that arnt inspection legal btw) not trying to discourage you and it can't be done with A LOT of work but its more of shop car status due to the amount invested its not really feasible or practical

HELMMF
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:25 am
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx
2006 Infiniti FX35

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well disabling NATS allows you to run the engine without the ipdm,bcm etc. zfever does it with the vq35 swaps. And just a question, do you remember my original post at all?
HELMMF wrote: I'm not trying to be flamed for this as i could "swap in a vq35 or ls1 much easier". Just here to gain knowledge on nissans CAN system.
Now, If you want my reasoning?... here you go:
I want to do a swap that nobody else does. a stock vq no matter 35 or 37 is great in an s14. the v8 is made by chevy. why the hell do i wanna be like every other american muscle car. also, an oil cooler is not a big problem. most vqs require them anyways when adding power. id like to keep it nissan. i dont want a v8.. takes up too much space.. Also, too many people do the sr20, ls, vq35de.. id like to be able to get this 37 in and make a swap kit for it.. its nissan's newest technology. I could get your point if i said "hey guys, im on a $2k budget and i wanna do a swap!" or "hey guys nissan engines suck so i wanna go american.. any input?" but i didnt. I see the point ppl made about doing the vk56 swap.. theres NO aftermarket for it. However, the z will always remain supported, no matter what year. Cost isn't a big issue obviously seeing as im looking at the newest engine possible... so if i do this swap for no other reason. It will be for originality. Then those that choose to follow shall have a path to travel. I don't need forced induction for this swap. i also don't recall stating the purpose of the car (drift/track/street..etc). The stock power from the 370z will be plenty no matter which way i choose to go. Thanks anyways.

jerryd1987
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:25 am
Car: 03 350z many mods inc next year

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Z fever does A LOT more then just disabling nats, without the ipdm the fuel pumps and ecu dosnt even turn on, without the combo meter the alternator dosnt turn on, without the bcm neither the combo meter nor ipdm work. Like I said your looking at 5k+ just in wiring and engine management solutions, that's not touching the drive train itself or the swap all in all expect no less then 15k for a stock engine. Again there's a reason its not done, its a project for shops to show off what they can do to build your confidence not even close to a do it yourself project and no where near economically feasible.

The z fever cars are also running after market guages and are not inspection legal, your asking for tool much and its just not going to happen since no known can module actually works, several have adertised they do, several people have bought them, and none of them have worked. Z fever has a single car running stock guages and it was a 350z de to a hr and expensive as crap since they swapped all the sensors and modules and redid wiring.

You also mention making and selling swap kits and if that's your interest stop right now you won't make anything 15k+ for a 3.7L that is proving very difficult to mess with in the after market and requiring extensive modifications vs less then 10k for a 6.2l that investing that other 5k into will make nearly everything on any track look silly. The market your trying to target is non exisistant since the world views everything as cost vs benefit.

Finally you mention it being the newest tech............. that dosnt mean anything, its a cool novelty but nissan was already looking for a replacement within 2 years, vvel is going to be discontinued soon which is why it isn't being put on any other engines such as the gtr. Again a issue of cost vs reward, it dosnt provide a good enough ratio and causes more problems then it helps. Direct injection is far easier and provides more benefit.

You talk about it being made by chevy what's your point? Its one of the most reliable engines in the world. You also mention size but have you ever seen them side by side? Physically they are nearly the same size, the lsx is slightly longer(not even that much) but the vq is significantly wider. But the lsx can support double the displacement so space constrants are laughable since your going to take up the same space, possibly even a little more with the vq37. You can want to be different all you want but there's wanting to be different and having unrealistic goals, after the comment of being inspection legal it seems you fall in the second category. Already told you the only way your going to get the can system to work, you can try all you want but modern electronics run off each other ditch one piece of the system and you screw the whole thing. There's a reason I went to cable tb and wired my haltech standalone the new tech is becoming crap with everything they are adding.

HELMMF
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:25 am
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx
2006 Infiniti FX35

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Get your numbers from a source then get back to me. Seen a vq37 eng and trans combo for 3800 I think.. I've seen eng alone from 2500 to 2800.. A vq35 wiring job from raw brokerage would cost me somewhere around a grand.. 1200 for a vq35hr swap harness from zfever.. The vq37 is alot like it. Even if I don't make money off this, it will do as you said.. Instill confidence..

Now you say how big the vq is compared to Ls.. I wanna see physical dimensions lxwxh of both..

You say i can't run stock cluster/gauges.. You're wrong once again.. Today I found the module I need for the MIL. Different than I expected but much better solution. Plus I've been asking if anyone knows of any modules, you neglected to let me know of the ones you found, whether they worked or not.

Also, if this was a track only car I'd for sure look into a different swap. Never said it was. I'm not looking to make others look silly either.

Vvel may get discontinued but a more complex engine will go in. You say vvel is not being put in because of the discontinuation.. How come the GTR doesn't have it but the 370 does? The 370z was SECOND to the GTR. So your statement is not of fact but mere assumption.

And I couldn't care less about the Ls being soooo great. It's a Chevy.. Not a nissan.. If I wanted to do a Ls swap.. I woulda bought a Chevy..

Now, as far as inspection is concerned, I didn't say Cali smog legal. I should've clarified. It was in regards to the cluster.. Just having no lights on or to have the ability for some lights to come on.. Such as the cel. And I didn't say I wanted the entire CAN to work like in the z.

I've done research, thanked you for your inputs that followed my original request: no flaming.. No Ls swap crap.. And shared things I've found. I agree.. It's not a practical swap currently.. But to swap this motor in and it be stock is plenty for my car and what I want from it.

This is my last post in regards to anything else you have to say. I encourage others to post helpful information. Thank you and I will post my findings soon. This will show which steps i plan to take as far as this swap is concerned. Then when I have the funds.. I will make a swap thread. As for now, I'm done haha. Thanks

jerryd1987
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:25 am
Car: 03 350z many mods inc next year

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lol dont quote the numbers of a different engine, no matter how similar there is ALOT more to the vhr as you said its newer tech, which means more complicated and shops are still figuring out the vvel system meaning your going to spend 10x for R&D then what you would for a production harness.

350z with a lsx(all the block dimensions are the same minus warhawk and gmpp lsx block which have a little taller decks.)
Image
now vq35hr(vhr is even bigger)
Image

as you can see its exactly like i said, dohc is friggin huge it requires a much much larger deck and heads.

henessey and one other company offers modules i cant remember the other company neither of them have been used succesfully with the vq35 engines in any chassis.

no not more complex the next gen engines are going back to variable valve timing on exhuast and intake(aka backwards) and direct injection to make more power from the same displacement. hardly more complicated or new, also the gtr was in development BEFORE the gtr try again, not assumption but fact, just like the future engines for the z are going to be direct injected or diesel nissan already said they where ditching vvel not a single platform is scheduled to receive it in the future.

you said you want it to pass inspection, which again best bet is lsx e rod kit, just because the light isnt on dosnt mean you pass since so many systems rely on each other, for instance unplug the bcm on a 370 and guess what happens? throttle body dosnt work even though its controlled by the ecu, everything is interconnected, dosnt matter what you want it matters what is required for the system to function.

you can do what you want i told you what is required, just because you dont like it dosnt change the fact thats what has to be done,(btw might wanna look into those swap harnesses some more, you cant just put the engine in, plug up the harness and computer and it runs, call em and ask em they will tell you themselves those swaps wont pass any inspection)

HELMMF
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:25 am
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx
2006 Infiniti FX35

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Seriously. Enough. I can tell you for the 350, zfever doesnt need bcm for electronic throttle. They already told me they could do it for the 370. I doubt for the figures you put up tho. You have done nothing to prove a point except quote people without a reference.. and no.. the ls isnt the exact size besides height. You must consider the intake as well.. thats another reason the z takes up space in the width. Not the length. Spend all your time trying to tell me im clueless but you havent even done the research. And does your little 350 have your glorified ls in it yet? Then save it. Show me numbers, references, etc.. not pictures.. and i also prefer dohc to sohc. It breathes much better than a ls could ever hope. Another reason not to go ls.. its a gas guzzler.. i can go all day why i should/ shouldnt do a vq37 or the ls.. but thats not what this thread is for. I appreciate your concern. Is it your money? No. Is it your swap? No. Did i only make this thread to see what is required for CAN in the newer nissan swaps? Yes. So why do i care about the ls??? I dont and you still dont get it.. and i clarified about the legality.. just the cluster i was concerned with.. you still dont get that!! This is a laughfest seeing as you claim sooo much but nothing to back it up. Are you a nissan master tech or work at zfever or even your own shop? No? Ok then. Let them be the ones to say its.impossible for under 15k

jerryd1987
Posts: 182
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:25 am
Car: 03 350z many mods inc next year

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oh yah obviously i havnt done my research, obviously i havnt build BOTH engines several of the lsx's, im not ase master certified, i dont have more miles on my vq35 then half the pro shops who build engines because you say i havnt sure showed me. for someone who was asking for the dimensions of the lsx you sure seem to be able to contradict me. the lsx is about 1.5 inchs longer then the vq35, the vq35 has extensive amount of extra space in front and behind the cylinders that isnt used vs the lsx series is very compact without the extra space, the vq35 also has a much much thicker timing cover then the lsx about 3-4 inchs vs 1.5-2 inchs on the lsx. lets not forget the water pipe on the back of the vq35 that you have to have and adds another 3 inchs to the length(it has to go somewhere and the lsx dosnt have any such thing.) now lets talk width, just looking at the pics you can see the vq35 is about 4-5 inchs wider then the lsx. the lsx is not very tall either intake hight is about the same as the vq35, even aftermarket intakes match the vq35 intake with a 1/2 inch spacer. thats comparing the vq35! the vq37vhr is physically larger

my 350z? no because it would cost me a extra 5k to make 800 to the wheels on the lsx because i have to buy a transmission and engine instead of just turboing and building the engine i had. if my goal was 500 or under? hell yah it would have been in there because it was the same price, also if i was looking for above 1k(which i might later move on to if 800 gets boring.) because it again becomes cheaper then trying it on the vq. however you are already trying to swap in a engine, not converting a preexisting engine to fi so your already are investing a large sum of money, for a engine that is notorious for over heating and is being discontinued because of the issues its having. its like swapping a NA ecotec into a solstice gxp or the na 2.0 in place of the 4g63.

numbers, ok 120 bucks an hour is shop standard they say 1000-1200 just for the harness, you do realise that is JUST the harness that dosnt mean the engine will run right? how about instead of buying the bs of a shop that is trying to make money you ask people who have interacted and done something similar? go ask the guy who had a hr swapped into his de 350z and how his $1200 wiring harness turned into over $4000 in custom wiring not counting anything other then wiring. if your gullible enough to believe what a shop tells you instead if going and talking to the people who have had shops do stuff for them then i actually dont feel sorry for you because you deserve to have your money taken and frankly if i ever open my own shop i hope to have tons of customers like you.

lol dohc over sohc? seriously? if your saying crap like that just go to a shop write a $60k check and dont touch the car yourself, no one here has listed a sohc engine. as far as flows better vq35 heads are 271 cfm stock intake side, full port and polish so much that your power band is right shifted 2k rpms they manage to hit 321 and thats the best you can get, about the average of lsx heads with some of them hitting 400 cfm or more and will still make peak power below 6k rpms. so toss that idea right out of your head, theres a reason that gm's STILL not going to dohc even despite they are introducing a brand new v8.

as far as nissan master tech no im ase master tech which federal certification for all makes means far more then a single manufacturer cert. i wouldnt work at zfever even if they offered me a job theres much better shops to work at. ill send you a business card after my contracts up unlike most i was smart enough to join the army when the va started offering SBL's in place of the first time home owner loans knock off a ton of interest vs a standard loan to a bank not to mention leaving with about 50k startup money.

i already told you what was needed for the cluster the point is YOU said you wanted the stock cluster and inspection compliant, its not going to happen since REGARDLESS OF STATE all aftermarket ems's are in non compliance and something most people dont know is the EPA offers a 10k reward for reporting such violations. im basing what i know off what YOU requested and what you requested isnt possible since without the bcm and abs module you cannot get the stock TB to work. zfever uses cable TB's or on one car using stock TB they ARE using the complete electrical system from the donor car.


im done since its pretty obvious you arnt even sure what your doing here..................lol sohc............

HELMMF
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:25 am
Car: 1995 Nissan 240sx
2006 Infiniti FX35

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My main point is the following: i want nissan only. No other brands.. not if i get it for free and its handcrafted by the best engineer in the world. I like products made by nissan. Second thing: zfever tells you bout the vq swap. If you read below how they do it.. it shows a second option using the dbw tb.. harness.. and STOCK ecu. Thats what i look at.. not their 4k extra cost for the aem bullcrap.. and thanks for your service in the army.. im the air force and work maintenance on the b1 b0mber.. so no im not in the chair force. Haha
Now one question: im looking at only nissan. I do not want v8, i do not want the vq35 swap, i do not want the sr swap, and the rb motors are getting old too. What else is there besides a 300zx engine which isnt all that.. and my more readily available choice: the vq37. I mean i could do the vq35hr but its been done. What would i obviously choose? The 37 cuz i wanna do something NEW. Lets say i wait for their next engine. How long til i can get it? Id have to wait at least 2 years to get one cuz of price.. or for someone to total the car and thats if it came out now. So what am i left with? Going to a different make of car.. which i said i wanna do. Thats the boat im in


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