Can I supercharge a 240, I think I can.

[Chezedik]

Oh, and fester, can I get the pure formula for that, I would like to run some calculations. I believe that through the power of math, I will only have to do this once, and then to tune it.

[Chezedik]

excuse me, I meant m60

[Fester]

I'm not clear on what you mean by "pure formula"?

Its just some highschool physics and chemistry I regurgitated from about 15 years ago. The calculations involved barely qualifies as maths.

[Chezedik]

I just meant a formula for to find out how much Mass I can expect to use.

[nab911]

Wow this convo was insane. Chezedik... were you planning on running a non centrifugal supercharger? If so are you like going to mount the thing on the intake mani or get a custom mani fabbed up? Because i dont see how it would work. We planned on a putting roots type charger on a z32 but we bought an old intake mani and we were going to fab up a plate to mate the two.

[Ubernoober]

Let me paraphrase a rather knowledgeable Nico member...

THE SUPERCHARGER DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ATTACHED DIRECTLY TO THE INTAKE MANIFOLD!!!1111eleveneleven.

Stop with the comments about how insanely difficult this is to do. It is really quite simple from a techinical standpoint. Let me break it down for everyone in no uncertain terms:

1: Buy an intercooler kit for a KAT2: Remove AC and place Eaton in its place.3: Alter intercooler kit so the hotpipe connects to the Eaton outlet.4: Pipe your MAF into the inlet of the Eaton.5: Use the EXACT SAME fuel management you would have used for the same boost level if you had gone turbo.6: Break ringlands just like a turbo kit.

The only condition here is that you purchase an Eaton with the built-in bypass. Done and done. Sheesh already.

[Chezedik]

Do you think it better to mount it in the position of the compressor or mount it to the manifold and worry less about cooling. I understand that there are other ways of doing this, but I also realize that with a custom manifold and cooler intake charge, there will be less chance of having the detonation that breaks those ringlands. Just a thought.

[Chezedik]

AND ANOTHER THING FOR ANYONE WHO DECIDES THAT THEY ARE THROUGH WITH THE SUPERCHARGER POSTS: Maybe if there were already 150,000 posts on step by step details like there are for turbocharging anything with 4cyls, than we would be done, but before I do it the wrong way, I would like some info. Thank you, that is all.

[Ubernoober]

If you wanted to go through the trouble, you could make your own manifold, but why?

I think you guys are WAY overthinking this. Boost is boost. Make use of all the stuff already made for boosting these cars. By having a ready-made intercooler kit, all you have to do is modify the first %10 of the tubing. The rest is already done. Nothing else to change. No custom manifolds, no relief valves, no weight hanging from the intake manifold. The toughest part would simply be getting the Eaton in place of the AC and running the belt over it, and honestly, there is a ton of space in that area. The factory was even kind enough to put the steering pump up so far that you could fit an entire extra engine under it.The intake manifold side looks like poo. Low hanging manifold, alternator in the way, radiator hose blocking easy acess and the oil filter jabbing out in the exact wrong spot. You can move it all, but again.... why?Use what has already been created and you are %50 of the way to being supercharged.

[nab911]

Ubernoober... If its not a centrifugal then you have to mate it to the manifold.. WHICH IS WHAT I WAS SAYING! Now... a centrifugal would be perfect and easy as hell to do BUT i didnt know eaton made those. If they do, how much is one because i could rig up a supercharger in a weekend.

[Ubernoober]

I don't want to be mean, but this has gone on long enough. Let me speak slowly and clearly:

YOUDONOTHAVETOBOLTASUPERCHARGERTOTHEINTAKEMANIFOLD

Are we clear now? It have absolutely NOTHING to do with being a roots or centrifugal.

As far as I know Eaton does not make a cetrifugal. If you were going to do a centrifugal on the 240SX I would call you lazy and foolish. Go turbo instead. A modified roots or Lysholm on the other hand is what I think most people are interested in.

[madbouncy]

Ubernoober is definitly one of the most knowledgable people on here with supers. Also, if you don't beleive about the intake thing, go look for a supercharger kit for a miata, guess where it's mounted, on the exhaust headers!! OMG< they're breaking the rules.

[madbouncy]

I got really bored and made an excel sheet of all the formulas I know for a supercharger. If only the numbers had a real meaning. The formulas I used were from Supercharged! by Corky Bell. Here's a screen.

[madbouncy]

Well here it is, as retarded as it is, it's nowhere near the level of my cat and I.

[r0b]

i'm just wondering why a major manufacturer hasn't done this already?!? I've sent e-mails to Jackson Racing about it and never received a reply.

it's not like there is much more R&D to be done, so costs wouldn't be that much.

I know i'd pay $3k for a bolt-on SC, and since it would easily yield 200+ hp/lb.-ft. to the wheels without the hassle of swapping an engine, it would sell like crazy!

or not...

[Ubernoober]

Imports tend to go the Turbo route. I cannot explain why, its just a train of thought they cannot jump off of. The reverse is true of domestics. Again, I do not know why. The fastest car I have ever been in was a beater twin turbo 5.0.Also, I would imagine that just like nobody is willing to make a smog-legal turbo kit for the 240, nobody is willing to do a smog legal SC kit. That reduces a major market (Cali). That, and nobody seems willing to heavily market any kind of kit (turbo or SC) for a niche car that already has an easy turbo swap.

[nab911]

Well i dont understand how you plan to route the air off of a not centrifugal supercharger into the throttle body. Because the openings on the bottom are huge squares. I dont know much about supercharges i just know centrifugals have a circular output that is just like a turbo output.

[Ubernoober]

You act as if nobody has ever made a square flange with a circular port. You already knew that. You were just testing me, weren't you?

The Thunderbird supercoupes even CAME with this part. You could simply scavenge one.

Also, the SC doesn't have to be top-to-bottom. You could mount it upright and breathe right to left, making mounting that much easier.

[nab911]

Oh... so instead of getting a custom manifold you just get a piece to turn the square flange to a tubular one... thats all i wanted to know...

[hbrown]

It should not be a problem to fabricate the adapters to pipe the boost out of the unit once you get your hands on one. Remember that the bypass has to be incorporated into it also- and I dunno if you would want the bypassed air going through an intercooler due to flow losses. The bypassed air will be naturally aspirated until a certain rpm is reached and then it closes the bypass and goes to boost. There would need to be an output from a controller to operate the bypassvalve. It would be complex for sure- but I can see it happening. I have been wondering myself why no one seems to have done this on a 240 yet. I think if I were to do it on the 240 I would put the supercharger over on the drivers side up top next to the head and pipe the intercooler just like a turbo setup. I would drive the blower with a lenthened shaft drivelike Jackson does on their kit for the Accord-look it up and you'll see what I mean. What sort of price are you seeing on the Eatons?

[Chezedik]

Well, my idea for intercooling was essentially on the custom manifold, with rifled runners that we intend on producing, I have decided to incorporate an internal exchanger to water, where the hosing will be ran to the front of the vehicle and exchanged to air. My intent is to do everything I can think of to lower the chance of detonation, so that higher levels of boost can be run on a stock engine. I also have a friend producing the head gasket to drop compression to the 9.0 to high 8's range. I will need to look into what similar turbo setups and supercharged setups have done, and make some decisions. Anybody with any ideas that could help, I would appreciate. Yes, I fiddled with the idea of the shaft and turning the blower around, and by doing that using only an adaptor plate to the manifold, but we came to the conclusion, that the shaft would be best supported with two carrier bearings, which would be nearly impossible to perfectly align, not to mention the possibility of running bolts into coolant passages, or warping the deck by welding them on (NO LONGER SERVICEABLE). And even with a single carrier on a screw tensioner, you would have awful balance issues on the shaft resulting in damage to the charger or the engine. The more carriers you add the more you aggrevate the situation. Long story short, it is not at all feasible to do it that way. I have also given some thought to UBERs idea, but I just can't get my thoughts past the tremendous amount of heat that the charger must absorb, being so close to the header. So, I still think the custom manifold will be the best plan of action, and require the least piping. I was thinking of a few supports for the charger in order to keep weight from stretching studs and damaging intake gaskets (which will already be stressed if it works). But since this is my post, I feel entitled to my two cents. But anything anyone can help me with would be appreciated. I must say a few of the posts have been 'food for thought'.

[hbrown]

Hey Ok- you have a few valid points there- yes, it is hot right there where I suggested, and the loads on a shaft would be more severe. But, the heat can be baffled off somewhat effectively, and the loads are not that terribly great on the set-up. (study the HP loads that the normal belts used for the Eatons are good for) In fact, with the proper auxillary bearing support, you could minimize the cantilevered loads on the supercharger itself. The unit is not as heavy as you are imagining either. There are plenty of suitable auxillary mounting holes on the KA block when you look at it. The intercooler I am thinking of is the same aftermarket set-up you would use for like an SR swap.

I favor this approach because I live in South Georgia-and there is no way I am even considering giving up my A/C- you just can't tolerate being without it here where I live- I know- I have had cars without it. You will fry like a dog from March through September- and my car is black. Now, if you are doing a race-only set-up where A/C is not a concern, then I suppose the custom manifold/intercooler makes sense. I am very interested in your progress. Keep posting and we will figure this out.

[Ubernoober]

The water-to-air intercooler he mentioned is an excellent way to create the shortest charging path while still getting good cooling in a tight package. If you are going to mount to your own intake, You can use some accessory bolt locations on the block and brackets to help support the SC. I don't think you will have a problem finding support. Be sure to design the manifold with a decent plenum since airflow out of the SC is less than ideal.

[Chezedik]

I was thinking about directing it out of the charger and into the runners, with a baffle. From there I will have the rifled runners to help atomization. I have two new concerns, and would be interested in some ideas. How hard would it be to eliminate the IAV system, what are the probable advantages and disadvantages? Does the bypass itself eliminate flow into the charger, or stop flow from exiting the charger?

[nab911]

Umm.... the point of a forum is to discuss things like this before you go out and do them. Im not sure if your the kind of person who just grabs some stuff and puts it together half-assed without planning but for something like this... i would want to understand it as much as possible before i tried it.

[Chezedik]

I appreciate that, that is what I thought.

[nab911]

Lol im not trying to sound like an ***, i was just replying to what the guy up top said. Anyways, so to sum it all up, which supercharger have you guys deemed the best fit for the 24de?

[Chezedik]

The M62, if you look at older posts, you will find that a guy tried to supercharge the KA24e with the supercharger from the toyota 4agze, which is an M45 as I understand. It worked well until about 3000 rpm, at which point it did not have the necessary displacement to meet the engines needs, and it fell flat on it's face. I feel the M90 would be far too large for all but the most highly built of KAs, and so for a marketable bolt on kit, the M62 seems like the obvious choice. In order to make it competitive as far as price, we have opted for the M62 as used by GM. If you price the unit reman.'ed, you will find it to be about 1/10th of the price of an eaton produced m62. Which means the kit could be marketed to be competitive with turbo kits available for the KA. And due to lower intake temps, higher amounts of boost could be ran on a stock block, without having to worry too much about detonation. Now, I am working on finding an affordable way to include a way to enrich. The problem is I don't want it ghetto, like hacking MAFs or anything like that. However, I do not understand the difference between an FMU and a Adjustable pressure regulator. Any input on that I would appreciate.

[Chezedik]

Any other info is certainly welome.

[lancefloyd]

Well Chezedik, I'm a local 240 owner in the KC area...so I would happily buy a supercharger system if you invented one. You got a great idea, don't let anyone screw it up for you. Props.