Can a 1993 ECU run a 1995 motor?

[turblu]

Hi guys,

I currently swapped in a 1995 ka24de into my 1993. I also swapped over the dizzy from my other engine onto the 1995. Now when I try to start it just turns and turns. I have fuel and spark for sure. Im also pretty sure my timing is on. It started for me at one point. Now it wont. Im throwing code 11 and 21 which means my dizzy is bad. But how could this happen overnight???

[DjPantsSpecR]

NO DICE cat.

95 ecus and 93s dont even really looks similar, on the inside i mean.

i have a 95 obdi manual that someone wanted to buy from me for 50 bones + shipping, unfortunately ive been too busy to get rid of this *****....

now the reason youre trhwoing a dizzy code is because the 95 ecu uses a crank angle sensor that is on the transimission, and the 93 uses a crank angle sensor thats in the distributor.

so your motor has no idea where its at. there is probably some SERIOUS re-wringin to get this to work, but if you have a 93 harness youre best to just use the 93 ecu, assuming youve swapped your sensors accordingly.

[TheOne]

he's using a 93 ecu + harness on a 95 ka, if you are using 93 stuff(like the intake manifold, at least the lower part) then you are fine and currently you are probably 180 degrees off or your dizzy is really bad.

[DjPantsSpecR]

oh yeah, obviously, that makes perfect sense, good work TheOne and i appologize.

i was confused when you said you swapped over the distributer, and that made me believe you had a 93 in a 95, and that threw me way off.

+1 for distributer off 180. chances are its literally not off by 180 degrees, but that you accidently hooked up the plug wires wrong. switch two fo em around adn you get a no-start condition.

it happens all the time because its usually the last thing you do in a motorswap, and you take it for granted.

however, if all you did was plop a 95 motor into your 93, like i jsut figured out you were actually saying, as long as you are using the 93 distributor, and the 93 sensors... youre gravy. so check the plug wire order, or to see if its backwards. and then you might consider trying an s13 dizzy from someone you know.

[turblu]

So if I'm 180* off. Whats the easiet way for me to reverse it. Rotate the crank to the tdc mark. Pull the dizzy out. Rotate it one more full turn to the TDC mark and then re-install it???

[matt4pl]

get the fsm, follow the timing procedure... or stick something long and thin into the #1 cylinder with all the plugs removed, rotate the motor CLOCKWISE until the timing marks on the pulley with the indicator needle on the front lower cover, then install you're distributor aligning the mark on the shaft with the notch on the housing (a bit fuzzy on this, like i said, check the FSM), plug it in, re-install spark plugs, start car, use a timing light to fine tune, tighten down dizzy bolts, enjoy

[placham]

I have checked the FSM, and I can only see one problem here. Assuming that all the parts are good and working properly, electrical has to be fine aswell. Did you do a motor swap? I undertand that you said you have a 95 KA24DE in a 93 right. Assuming all the parts that you use from the 93 like wires, dist, and ECM are working properly. Do one thing make sure you have good chassis ground. When I helped my bro put a KLZE into his MX-3. The engine cranked fine, had fuel, and ignition, but it did not want to start, if it did it would die right away. We were chnaging out his J-spec Intake manifold for US-spec K8 manifold, but we forgot to connect a body ground or chassis ground negative/ground wire to his intake manifold. Once we figured it out the car started and ran fine. This might be something or it could be nothing be worth a try. Looks like the ignition system is based on chassis ground from looking into FSM wiring diagrams. Bad chassis ground is a common problem on cars of all makes. You could use a test light to verify ground or power source for ignition components conectors, and use DVOM/ multimeter to verify good components.

I have a KA24E, if it's the same as KA24DE you should have external ignition coil. Pull of the wire that connects coil to distributor, when one end pluged in to coil hold the other end over metal part of the body(where ever ground is present). Have someone crank the the engine for you, check to see if you have spark coming out of the coil (MAKE SURE YOU DISABLE THE FUEL PUMP, SO YOU DONT FOUL OUT THE PLUGS) If you have spark coming out of the coil than you know that your electrical part of the ignition system is working properly. So if your car does not start, and you have spark at the coil than it could be 1. distributor not timed correctly with engine2. distributor rotor not installed correctly(if it's possible), or bad rotor3. bad distributor cap4. bad or fould out plugs (plug gap would be something to check aswell)5. bad plug wires, or plug wires not on the correct number cylinder plug. dist cap should have the numbers on it (not sure which way rotor turns CCW or CW, reading the numbers in that order should tell you the firing order, its either 1,3,2,4 or 1,3,4,2.Easiest way to verify all these (except the plug wire order) is to take out the plugs and conect the plug wires to them, and verify that each wire and plug are putting out a spark.

Now if you dont have a spark eather at the coil or the plugs, than you have an electrical problem. which would be hard to explain, this is where the Factory Service Manual is "worth all the big bucks that it costs" comes in handy. I also had no spark in my car when I first got it, I replaced the complete distributor the power transistor the coil and the resistor(everything costed me about 80 bucks from salvageyard) , but at that time I did not have the FSM, that was one of the reasons I got one now.

Anyway I had no ground going to the power transistor, that was why I had no spark, it was electrical fault.

TO R&R (remove and replace) distributor or Time the distributor, steps are1. engine must be at TDC compression stroke. I have a compression gauge at home, so this is easier for me. Because I use the piece that screws into the cylinder head and hold my thumb over the other end and that way I feel when its Cylinder number 1. at compression stroke. Than I turn it back the other way just a little bit, stop, and turn it back the way I was turning it first to align the TDC marks. Or have someone help you to turn the engine, and the other person(on DOHC hold your hand over the cylinder No1. spark plug boot hole so your making a seal of sort with your hand and feel for compression if you feel compression, tell the other person to stop turning the engine over. Back it up a little bit past TDC marks, stop and turn it back the way you were turning it before align the TDC marks. On SOHC the idea is the same but you hold your thumb over the spark plug hole on cylinder no.1."I have not tried this but I think if you hold the throttle body "butterfly" flap wide open you should feel a lot more compression, because when doing an actual compression reading that is on of the things you have to do WOT throttle"2. remove distributor3. replace distributor with rotor pointing the right direction. This is the step in which its really got to know which way the rotor is turning I think its CW. But to verify before removal of dist, remove the cap have some one crank, or turn the engine over a couple of times, note the rotation of distributor. THE IDEA HERE IS TO SET THE ROTOR JUST A LITTLE BIT BEFORE CYLINDER NO.1 DISTRIBUTOR CAP "PRONG" OR "PLUG TOWER" their inside the dist cap four of them with "carbon button" in the center of dist cap that make the connection between cap and rotor. It's really good to verify that before tightening the dist bolts, hold the dist cap over the dist and the rotorassembly, it should be just a little bit before number one cap tower. when looking at disatributor when engine on cylinder number 1 TDC the rotor tip should be facing downwards to the right(on KA24E)4. reasamble dist bolts, dist cap, and the plug wires.

That is how I do it and have done it in the past.Sorry if I have wrote a lot, just want to help out, to time the distributor its much easier done than said (onec you have done it before or have seen it done).If everything worked fine before than I bet its the plug wires that are mixed up or you have bad conection at conectors.PEACE

P.S. I'm not a 240sx wizz in any way, but there might be some differences in the distributors for KA24DE, your old one could have shorter shaft or something, make sure that the rotor actualy spins, or that the shaft is actualy making contact with the (oil pump I think) gear. Or there might be some differences between the older an newer ka24de's electrical dont know I'm just spit-balling here.

By the way code 11=Crank angle sensor circuit code 21=Ignition signal missing in primary coilthose are for Ka24e out of '90 240sx FSM

If you have access to FSM for code 11 section "EF&EC-86" it looks like there is one or two fuses or fusable links in relay box, ECCS relay, crank angle sensor the wiring, and there is also a chassis ground, or body ground it would be wire color "B" at crank angle sensor conector, which is ground that would be something to check BAD OR WEAK GROUND IS A COMMON PROBLEM ON ALL MAKE OF CARS CHECK THAT. Code 21= section "EF&EC-94" FSM. A lot of components to check and wires, and conectors as wel to verify but check to see if you have good ground to resistor an condenser wire color"B" which would again be chassis ground, and power transistor wire color "B" chassis ground.

Modified by placham at 5:25 PM 9/29/2006

Modified by placham at 5:48 PM 9/29/2006
Modified by placham at 5:56 PM 9/29/2006

[turblu]

wow...awesome reply... thanks for all that information...

[turblu]

would a code 11 throw my timing off?

[turblu]

ok... So I've re-checked my timing per the fsm.

This should be TDC correct?

I put the dizzy back in with the rotor right before cyl 1 post. Is there anything else I could be missing?

[placham]

I wish I had DOHC..lol

Yeah that looks like that would be Cyl No1 TDC, intake and exhaust cam lobes dont look like they are compresing the lifter, so it should be on TDC just line up your mark with the crank pulley for TDC. I used wire brush to clean the pulley where the notch/indentation is on the pulley, and then used white out to mark it better. Just my personal preferance seemes easier to locate the mark. But I had the fan and the shroud on, looks like you dont have it on; should be easier to acces.

Did you check if your getting spark out of the coil while cranking the engine? If you are than it will, anything after the coil that is causing no start.

It sucks when the car is not runing, and you put lots of work into it.

Peace

[DjPantsSpecR]

yeah, its set up correctly

the only thing i would add at this point is to remove that metal chain guard on top. i have three broken ones and one intact one. Nissan said to remove these years ago, and its only a matter of time before it breaks and you find it rattling around in your engine, so long as it doesnt fall down.

[turblu]

So it looks like I have my timing set right. I ran codes and now I have a code for knock sensor and MAF. Will these two in conjunction with each other cause me to flood out right after the car starts.

Because now when I crank the car is starts on the first crank. But it dies shortly after. I know I'm running extremely rich from my plugs. Also alot of black smoke is coming out.

A code 11 would cause a no start issue correct? Or would it also cause this issue?

[turblu]

A

I wish I had DOHC..lol

Yeah that looks like that would be Cyl No1 TDC, intake and exhaust cam lobes dont look like they are compresing the lifter, so it should be on TDC just line up your mark with the crank pulley for TDC. I used wire brush to clean the pulley where the notch/indentation is on the pulley, and then used white out to mark it better. Just my personal preferance seemes easier to locate the mark. But I had the fan and the shroud on, looks like you dont have it on; should be easier to acces.

Did you check if your getting spark out of the coil while cranking the engine? If you are than it will, anything after the coil that is causing no start.

It sucks when the car is not runing, and you put lots of work into it.

Peace

LOL.... alot of work into it is right-

Here is a link to my build up thread of the car -

http://nv240sx.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=4097

[DjPantsSpecR]

no, you can start a KA with no maf or knock sensor.

extremely rich eh.... check injectors, and see if you hooked up the fuel lines correctly. make sure you've hooked up all your grounds.

check compression. you can start a KA with very little if no sensors hooked up. the only time i had an issue liek yours is when i had a heap of bent valves.

[placham]

Yeah I also heard that KA or maybe SR will run with bad or unpluged MAF. With unpluged or bad MAF it should still rev up to like 2200 or 2500 RPM, its a fail safe, or "AKA limp mode", so you can still drive the car home. It programed into the ECM.Forgot to mention when I helped my bro with the KLZE i his MX-3, we thought that we had the fuel lines correct, but it turned out to be wrong. When the lines were switched around the car ran 10times better.

So it lookes like you got the ignition figured out.

50 bucks paint job not bad, actualy looking good, it does not have the clear-coat on or does it?

Blitz NurSpec cat back, I wish I had one too, I was going to get one on ebay, used. But I got out bid. I will probably get an bran new one Blitz or HKS.

This might be stupid but do you know how does the car sound with the Blitz catback.??????????

I got go work on my 240PEACE

P.s.If you have a spare knock sensor from your old KA or the MAF try to teplace them. And black smoke is a sign of runing rich, more fuel than air, or it's a misfire. White smoke would mean it burning coolant, runing lean I think, or when it runing outside when it's realy cold. Blue smoke means that it's burning oil.

So now it start but it dies after runing for couple of seconds.see if you start it, and give it gas, will that help or does it have no affect what so ever. IN FSM it would be Under EF&EC-39,40,or 41 depending on condition.
Modified by placham at 11:37 AM 10/5/2006