CAI/H/E/ Suspension done--What to do now for NA HP increase?!?

[MarkEmark]

Hey....I'm pretty satisfied with my car's suspension at the moment, but now that it has relatively good brakes and handles well, it's BEGGING for more power (KAE24DE)...I was tooling around in my car tonight, and my brother was in his saab 900 (NA), and his car was keeping up with me with relative ease (I wasn't going past 5000RPM, yet neither was he!), which shocked me quite a bit because his car weighs 150 lbs more than mine, is 150 hp, no mods, and mine has CAI/H/E, and the cold air makes noticeable jumps in HP in the cold weather (it was like 15 degrees out)...

So anyway, I'm yearning for more power, in fact, it's all i want right about now! I've been spoiled with 5 degree weather here in the morning which makes my car incredibly responsive and potent in such weather (with the CAI and all), and I want to know what I should do next for performance mods. I know the usual direction is cams, and PDM racing cams are proven 11WHP additions, but I want to stay away from cams because I want to autocross in the spring, and cams would put me into a class with cars that I have no chance against (ie, fully modified almost-race cars..., I'd be in D street prepared if I raced right now). The other reason I want to stay away from them is because all of the power increase is at High RPMS, and i'd lose some torque/HP at lower revs (between 2000 and 4000, not much, but some). I have about $550 right now just burning a hole in my pocket, and need suggestions. I wanted to just replace my platinum plugs with the Iridium IX plugs, new silicone plug wires, and get a 300zx fuel filter, just for some tune-up ideas to get my car running tip-top, but I know this will yield next to nothing in power increase.

So my question is, what am I to do if I want some more power but have to stay away from internal engine mods? Is the dual electric fan conversion really worth it? I know it frees up HP, but will it make the car seem more responsive/"potent?" I've heard good and bad things about pulley-installation, and possible "engine" failure from the installtion of U/R pulleys or any pulleys for that matter turns me off from that idea. Anyone have any ideas? Please help me out! I have a sweet tooth for power, and I have to stay away from cams, which would be the first reall addition to my car that added a lot of HP!

My quest for power almost makes me want to try KA24DE(T), but I have limited experience in turbocharging engines, limited funds ($2500 minimum, even if I pieced a kit together myself,) and want to keep my car street-legal. (even though as of the moment, it isnt, but I'll be getting a cat to replace the dummy cat soon...)...Help me out here guys!

MARC

[TommyyJ]

Full tune up - distributor cap and rotor, oil change, switch to synthetic if you so desire or haven't already, plugs, wires, pcv valve if you want, and 300zx fuel filter, advance your timing a few degrees to get some better low end throttle response, make sure that air filter of yours is clean too.

Remove your mechanical fan and install two 12 inch electric fans, yes it frees up horsepower and helps up top too...

Install the ASP pulley, it won't destroy your engine, trust me and everyone who has it.

Theres not many more bolt ons that I can think of that you have already and that I listed. Maybe someone else can think of some more.

[Scott McLellan]

lightweight aluminum flywheel would make your engine rev quicker and be more responsive.

[Canadian 240SX]

step up your injectors and fuel pump, big improvement on my car

[MarkEmark]

Boo to aluminum flywheel because I think they're much too hard to drive on regular commutes to/from school, work, etc. Bigger injectors and fuel pump? After only CAI/H/E? Is it really worth it? I thought the ECU could handle the extra air flowing in/out of the engine and compensate for the gas accordingly...Canadian 240sx...what does your car have on it for modifications, and how much of a diff did the fule pump/injectors make?Thanks

[240canuck]

I was thinking after headers and exhaust to upgrade fuel and ignition first then once I hit around 180,000 km get the engine rebuit with higher compression and get the head all ported and polished while the cars down that woudl probly be next winter though oh well its always good to dream.

[Dattebayo]

i have to disagree with mark on the flywheel issue. Its not the flywheel that makes the car hard to drive its the clutch, which you may have overspec'd. i dont think its nessesary to get bigger injectors yet you are just going to gum up your internals. You should get the flywheel (its the first thing i did to my engine) and you should get CAMs seriously that combined with headers will have your friend SAABing on the side of the road.

[Daves240]

A stock 240 would have killed the Saab on any given day. BUT you said it was 15 degrees so I'd think his winter tires are better than your winter tires. Thats all that was wrong, in the summer you should out handle that car no problem(assuming you have good tires).

Prioritize your wants, if autocrossing means more than having fun on the street then build your car within your class rules. From your list of mods I don't see a reason you can't run STS, DSP is really expensive (Hoosier AS303=$$$). If you do run STS a CAI, Header, JWT ECU, and underdrive pulley are legal, you should be able to remove the mechanical fan (I'm trying to get that rule legalized). You should also get good tires I like the Falken Azenis (the140 treadwear, not 280) equivalent to the BFG KDs and Bridgestone S02/S03 for half the cost. Don't forget the little stuff like good plugs(NGK IX) and wires. In DSP I know you can do more, but I'm not sure how much.

David J.'89 240sx

[gh0stx]

Actually I own a 1992 saab 900, and it is quite fast, I can almost keep up with older audi's (NA ones) for the first 1/8 of a mile, and can take out most things on the road, summer or winter (Go sticky Dunlops!) Also, my friend has a 2000 Miata and on a small back road, i can tailgate his *** on streightaways, and almost nail the same apex he hits.. The back end is a little squirlish though.

If his bro has the 5spd, NA 900, it should keep up with the 240 until around 60-70 mph on a streightaway.. With it's close-cropped transmission it's acceleration is impressive. But on a curvy course.... No way, unless its snow (Best fwd snow car) and then the rwd would handicapp him anyways.

Grab some suspension ($700US) and some nice tires ($250) and kick his *** next time around..

It's not always about HP, it's in the way you drive too.. I'd look for some advanced driving/racing courses.. Improved my game alot..

[MarkEmark]

2BN S13--A lighter flywheel means the engine revs easier and quicker, which means the car drops much more RPM in between each gear, and is more prone to stalling...i didn't know it had anything to do with the clutch (mine is stock anyway.) The issue is not HIS car outhandling mine by any means, I know once the road turns I can (and do) kick his ***. i'm saying on straight aways, etc, he has a good amount of top end, and his car is geared for higher speeds, and I'm dismayed that he can relatively easily keep up with me---his car is 150lbs more, has 15 or so less horsepower and less torque, and he has similar driving ability (he's my twin brother!), I think it might be because his torque band is much flatter and lower than mine, as it is a relatively large 4 cyl, 2.3 liters. GhoSTX...i have to disagree with you on the saab having a close-ratio 5 sp transmission---no other 5 spd I've ridden in has as close a ratio gear box as my car (vw jetta 8V and his saab 900)--in each gear at the same RPM, he can go 5-10 mph faster, especially 3rd and second he can easily go 10 mph at the same RPM...The roads were dry when we were "chasing each other," and I had all season pirelli's on it with really good tread, and he had actually worse tires than me (incidentally, this is the reason his car performs horribly in the snow, or at least it did today on the way to/from school!). The problem with tooling around on nice twisty roads in the winter here is that the state dumps so much damn sand and salt on the road that oversteer can easily be induced with too much throttle or speed!

Daves240--DSP? STS? What class of racing? I'm talking about SCCA autocrossing (SCCA solo II), are there any othe racing organizations that have autocross, if so, links, websites?

You're right that I have to prioritize to see what I want with a car. Obviously I drive it on the street the vast majority of the time (in fact, I haven't autocrossed it yet,) and the autocross events around me are all at least 2 hours + away, so it seems foolish for me to squelch my ideas of street performance for a couple of autocross events. I just wanted to try autocross out, learn some car control, see how I do, and most importantly, have fun, I doubt I'd be a hardcore devotee, or that I'd compete in more than 5-10, assuming they aren't further than 2 hours away, especially if I have to drive my car there...I just passionately yearn for more power every day I drive my car, and it almost seems like a low-buck turbo kit would be the best way to go, something which would indefinitely disqualify me from autocross, and render my car emissions illegal (unless I properly "detuned" it). The reason I want to stay away from turboing it is because it has 92k mmiles, I have little to know knowledge on the subject, and would probably only have about $1000 to spend on a kit....No $3500 to dump into an Nsport kit, hell I only make $90/week.

I was just reading the "street modified" scca car classification, and they outlaw lightened pulleys that aren't available as standard equipment on my car, yet they DO allow water injection kits, which easily add around 20 HP to turbo charged cars, whereas pulleys would add a max of 5 hp on a NA car---makes sense, huh? Also, the cars my car would be in D class have pretty potent power plants, most of them are V6's or turbo charged 4 cylinders, almost all of them have more HP than my car! Maybe SCCA recognized that the 240 was such a potent performer that they put it up against some powerful machines to make it more "competative...":ylsuper

Maybe just dual 12" electric fans for now, but I really want that extra oomph to slam me into my seat past 3500, and cams would do it!

Thanks for the suggestions, keep 'em coming!

[apzak]

Great thread, I love when there's something new on improving the ka's horsepower. How difficult is it to install cams, and how many hours of labor would I be looking at if I got a shop to do it? If I got cams and the engines opened up, would I be able to do anything else to it, maybe port and polish or would that require more work?

When you got CAI, headers, and exhaust did you notice a stronger "slam into the seat" feel? I'm thinking of getting I/E/H next, but if your saying Saabs with less horsepower stock are realy keeping up then I don't know. I might as well save for an SR20DET. I'm not saying it's the answer to your problem, it's just something I'M considering. I read "SR20DET Sucks" so don't tell me about it.

[MarkEmark]

'69 911 T Targa, eh? I'm a BIG porsche fan...is the first T for turbo? :ylsuper

From what I've heard, cams are a pretty straight-forward installation, involved, not so much hard as just detail-oriented, as long as you have a Factory Service Manual, it shouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't take it to a shop, you'd probably pay at least $150 for installation! I wouldn't suggest porting/polishing yourself, especially if you've never done it, which could cause averse effects--if you want a truly potent combo, port/polish done at a shop that can flow test the head, along with cams would add at least 20-25 whp--cams are 11, PNP should be at least 10 if done correctly.

Hmm...slam in the seat feel---not in 90 degree weather when I installed all of the above items, but they did make a noticeable difference, down low and in the top end. I'm running no cat, and the CAI makes a pretty substantial difference, with much better throttle response. In the cold, like 15 degree weather around here, 2nd gear really slams you into your seat, and past 3500 rpm, even more, sort of like a "mini turbo effect." I highly suggest CAI, especially if you're in an environment that has cold weather parts of the year!

[apzak]

Quote »'69 911 T Targa, eh? I'm a BIG porsche fan...is the first T for turbo? [/quote]

I wish, actually Porsche didn't put a turbo in their cars until 1973 I think? First car the turbo went in was the 911. The "T" actually means my car is the base model. In 1969 there were 3 models, the "T" being base and the only one with weber carburaters, the "E" being luxery (lots of options) with mechanical fuel injection and about 150hp, the "S" being top of the line for all out performance. It had around 190hp I think, mechanical fuel injection with "S" cams I don't know for sure about E and S specs, don't quote me I'm sure someone else knows. But the T had 110hp. Performance is suppose to be equal to our 240sx's with the T and back in 1969 the Datsun 240z was being compared to the 911T as the 350z is being compared to the Porsche Boxster today. I have the 1969 car and driver review of the Porsches from 1969, it's very intresting maybe I'll scan it in Off Topic. These old porsches weighed about 2200lbs, and all 911's were equiped with the flat 6 engine. 912's had flat 4's maybe someday I'll get a turbo 911, one of the first generations I believe called 930s aren't to expensive if I can't afford a 911 turbo theres always the 944 turbo .. anyways I got off topic....

Yea I better get a CAI soon, I'm in New Jersey and we have the artic air front.. It's like 18F here and colder at night. During the summer it gets real hot so I won't feel much then, we get usually 80-90F during summer.

Cams would be nice, 150 for installation, I know someone that could help me out with them if I decide to install them myself.

[JNM240]

I believe they put their first turbo in the 911 (actually a 930) in 1973 but the US didnt get it until 1976. My other car is a 1985.5 Porsche 944. Not even in the same ballpark, but at least its the same game.

[R240NA]

Remove your mechanical fan and install two 12 inch electric fans, yes it frees up horsepower and helps up top too...

You already have an electric fan. Taking it out and adding a pair of fans will put more draw on the alternator, creating more drag on the motor. Keep what you have.

[MarkEmark]

I thought the AC fan was electrical and the other fan (the big one under the black cowling) was mechanical...will putting a dual eletric fan set up really draw that much power from the alternator? I don't see why it would when there is already one electric fan..I don't have any "system" or audio nonsense like that. Why would everyone remove their fans and add dual electric ones if there wasn't SOME increase in performance (or decrease in parasitic power loss)?

[apzak]

The stock OEM fan is huge and requires more power to turn than aftermarket fans. You gains some horsepower with aftermarket fans, but I'm not going to do that yet because 300 dollars a kit and what 3-5hp gains? There are better mods out there, unless your fan is making noise and needs to be replaced. But buying electric fans on ebay and junk yards might be 100 dollars for everything. I'm just not good mechanically so I need a kit that has all the directions, steps, and new parts.

[MarkEmark]

Enjukuracing sells a "flexalite" dual 12" electric fan "kit" for the SR20DET that supposedly bolts right up to the KA24DE w/little trouble....but does anyone know what this kit entails? mounting brackets? wires? thermostat? My CAI since its 3" and rather large, inhibits me from mounting another fan to the stock mountin place, in fact, I shaved one of the mounts to have it fit....BUT, jcwhitney or pegasus, i forget which, has the EXACT SAME dual 12" flexalite electric fans for $165--not that bad, esp considering mine rattles and moans like a motha! I cant stand that sound at idle, it makes me nauseous!

Does anyone know how I'd go about mounting the flexalites to the radiator W/O using the top radiator mounts? tie wrap anywhere?Marc

[I_eat_hondas]

I just wanted to say somthing about saabs, I love my 240 but I also have a 96 saab turbo and its built like a sherman tank and takes off like an f-16. so I would have to disagree with Daves240 a stock 240 dosent have much of a chance against a newer saab, maybe against an N/A, but not against a turbo.

[MarkEmark]

Nobody's knocking saab--his was a 97 NA 900, only 150hp, in fact, my brother is selling it because he's so displeased with the power and handling--(I keep telling him NOT to compare a luxury coupe to a sports car) the newer ones have a better chasis, suspension layout, and engine, but he couldn't be more disappointed with his 97, he's selling it to get a '00 Jetta 1.8t which he plans to modify to around 200hp (easy bc its a turbo). The new Saab 9-5 (and now the 9-3) is an absolutely gorgeous car, and his saab is much more solidly built than mine, with a very nice torque curve...My friend's mom has a 2002 saab 9-5, the one with 250hp, and wow, I've never been thrown into the seat at 1900 rpm like I was in that saab-ride quality, stereo, fit, finish, ergonomics, brakes, etc were all top-notch.

[I am Technoman]

I did my fan swap for 100 dollars.

[MarkEmark]

Would you mind telling me your exact setup, or would you have to kill me? Please don't tell me you got the fans at a stellar price because you're a nissan tech... :pface Are you running duals or a single? How did you mount it to the radiator?

[MarkEmark]

Incidentally, I was reading my chilton's FSM that includes the altima, and it seems to me that the altima of the same year has a dual electric fan set up stock that looks like it would bolt right up to the radiator...anyone think of doing this??? I wonder how much OE altima fans cost..

[dreamsOfSkylines]

I'm pretty sure you can get the VW up to 220 with an audi ecu and meybe some other minor adjustments, stock turbos rule...

[Nsport240]

first off, the electric fan mounted to your radiator will adaquately cool your engine bay. the thermostat triggers it at 180 degrees, like normal. the mechanical fan is above and beyond. If you want more power (thats what this thread is about, right) get yourself a set of 1991-1993 s13 cams (the 89-90 models only have one cam and dont try to pull the cams out of a 1994, something isnt right about those cams, they wont work). These cams have a 240/248 intake and exhaust duration, respectively. I picked up a set for 50 bucks (NISMO cams have a 248/248 duration and can run upward of 400 for the set). alone you should see 15 hp at the wheels. Next, add adjustable cam gears and tune away.