I figure this is an important, but overlooked item;if you check out the uk and aussie forums you'll notice a "big ends" or "death rattle" (rattling noise coming from cam covers) post on most pages! I think it has to do with a 10-12 year old motor *starting* a life of hi boost. A relatively small displacement motor in a 2800 lb car doesn't help this situation either. I think it would be VERY WISE to address this problem BEFORE you get a rod knockI bought another ca18det cheap, that the owner picked up the death rattle. He didn't drive it long like that, but he never maintained the car and always beat the snot outta that motor (huge tire-smoke shows/ auto transmission). Surprisingly the crank is in excellent condition#2 rod bearing worn down to copper, and DEcreased in curvature, to the point where it no longer sat in the rod bearing saddle. Any thoughts on what caused this ? Oil was black and thick.
Has anyone put new bearings on their stock crank ?If so, what brand / from where ? how many miles since installed ?If oe nissan bearings, did you "grade" them as per service manual ? Did you use pulsar bearings ?
Of course a cut crank and undersized bearings, is the way to go if you have damaged journals.I see folks try to shortcut this and are always plagued with bearing problems.
CA18 rod bearing. chronic failure
well i believe in preventative maintenance so i am rebuilding the snot out of my engine, BUT i too ahve heard of this and when i see the kind of milage that some of these engine have when they let go i think it is only normal, especially on boosted engines that rev high.
i am rebuilding with OE nissan standard bearings, i think grade one, my crank was undamaged.
If i could i would get Power Enterprise "Black" bearings, supposed to be some superior coating and material that F1 uses and good for 12,000rpm etc etc.. i doh know how much is just sales talk, but thye are expensivena nd only sold in Japan. they also make head gaskets and Super Strong Timing Belts, which is another thing i would like to look into.
and on the UK board they always suggest replace the mains every 80,000k's which means that the CA18DE currently in my silvia should have had them changed twice :|
i am rebuilding with OE nissan standard bearings, i think grade one, my crank was undamaged.
If i could i would get Power Enterprise "Black" bearings, supposed to be some superior coating and material that F1 uses and good for 12,000rpm etc etc.. i doh know how much is just sales talk, but thye are expensivena nd only sold in Japan. they also make head gaskets and Super Strong Timing Belts, which is another thing i would like to look into.
and on the UK board they always suggest replace the mains every 80,000k's which means that the CA18DE currently in my silvia should have had them changed twice :|
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iliketocrash
- Posts: 1109
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cortina-mk1
- Posts: 272
- Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 10:21 pm
- Car: GT-R Skyline, MK1 Cortina's
- Contact:
the ca18det seem to kill big ends in the 60-80k mile rangeThat's nothing, compared to say, my last DSM purchased at 136k, not well maintained at all, motor never opened.... purrs like a kitten and will take the boost with confidence
I know bearing shells are a wear item, my question is WHAT, have you guys had sucess with;aftermarket std size; ACL, King, Clevite etc ?oe nissan; std size ? ......DID YOU GRADE em ? US pulsar ?
Yep, this forum have mostly new ca18det users, but I figure I'll bring it up anyway.I've read of lotsa UK guys changing shells, only to have the same problem, not far down the road. Either they eventually pull the crank, have it machined for undersized bearings or replace their motor with a (worn) jap import (which I think will only buy you a bit more time).
I recently witnessed someone go thru this same exercise on a toyota.14yr old crank, unblemished journals, slight copper showing on most rod bearings (nice even wear) & corresponding decrease in oil pressure.I warn him about oe bearing grades. Dealer sells him std grade2, in stock. 500 miles later, pressure drops, all bearings copper... #5 & 6 worst. He trys clevite std size next. They don't even make it 500 miles. Scorred journals now. I suggested a cut crank. He's been beating the living crap outta his motor ever since
iliketocrashif you're lucky, or you don't drive it long, you may get away with refreshing using the correct bearings. If you scratch the crank journals, a cut crank & bearing package will bring you back like new. The bad scenario.... you can spin a rod bearing / deform the rod. Or it can bind up, break off the rod cap..etc = disaster. You'll get warning signs long before
I know bearing shells are a wear item, my question is WHAT, have you guys had sucess with;aftermarket std size; ACL, King, Clevite etc ?oe nissan; std size ? ......DID YOU GRADE em ? US pulsar ?
Yep, this forum have mostly new ca18det users, but I figure I'll bring it up anyway.I've read of lotsa UK guys changing shells, only to have the same problem, not far down the road. Either they eventually pull the crank, have it machined for undersized bearings or replace their motor with a (worn) jap import (which I think will only buy you a bit more time).
I recently witnessed someone go thru this same exercise on a toyota.14yr old crank, unblemished journals, slight copper showing on most rod bearings (nice even wear) & corresponding decrease in oil pressure.I warn him about oe bearing grades. Dealer sells him std grade2, in stock. 500 miles later, pressure drops, all bearings copper... #5 & 6 worst. He trys clevite std size next. They don't even make it 500 miles. Scorred journals now. I suggested a cut crank. He's been beating the living crap outta his motor ever since
iliketocrashif you're lucky, or you don't drive it long, you may get away with refreshing using the correct bearings. If you scratch the crank journals, a cut crank & bearing package will bring you back like new. The bad scenario.... you can spin a rod bearing / deform the rod. Or it can bind up, break off the rod cap..etc = disaster. You'll get warning signs long before
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iliketocrash
- Posts: 1109
- Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 5:58 am
SR suffer the same problems, if you read this forum and freshalloy.com forums you'll see SR spinning rod and mians too...
preventative maintenance my friends, rod bearings are easy to change.
As stated above my CA18 in my silvia currently has 152,XXX on the odometer and this thing has seen some pressure, from overheating nearly everyday for month cause of leaky hoses (hey i don't give a crap about this motor, i got a badboy on the way), the previous owner forgetting that cars need oil etc, and she runs perfect, another testament that these iron block CA can take some jamming.
preventative maintenance my friends, rod bearings are easy to change.
As stated above my CA18 in my silvia currently has 152,XXX on the odometer and this thing has seen some pressure, from overheating nearly everyday for month cause of leaky hoses (hey i don't give a crap about this motor, i got a badboy on the way), the previous owner forgetting that cars need oil etc, and she runs perfect, another testament that these iron block CA can take some jamming.
group buy???
you guys want to start a group buy on the Power Enterprise F1 Black Bearings???
Power Enterprise Link (in english - translated)
If you mention the highest peak of motor sport, after all it probably is the F1. The ƒgƒbƒvƒhƒ‰ƒCƒo?[ of the world competes technique, there is also a reason that is funny as a race/lace, but also always saying the leading edge mechanism, has raised the position and charm of the F1.
Because the ultra-advanced technology which is thrown to the F1, whatever saying, polishes under that severe condition, if it is fed back generally, you promise high reliability and high performance. Being " F1 technology " how word it is expressed well, but also this F1 black metal, just is F1 technology itself. Those which stretch copper * lead alloy being attached on the steel base where strength is difficult to cause plastic deformation high are used to the high rotary engine and the like. It is the kelmet metal where this is used usually.
The F1 black metal, furthermore through nickel bond layer, has stretched the overlay of the thickness 15 micron which is a kind of coating. The high performance where this overlay is preeminent the F1 black metal is administered. Surface condition of overlay, having entered state of the kind of ƒMƒUƒMƒU the pyramid to be piled up, when you set the crank, contacts in the point vis-a-vis the general metal contacting in the surface. Because of that the friction decreases substantially. Furthermore when heat generation is little in comparison with the metal of interview touching, uses the usual kelmet metal compared to you say it is possible as many as 20 degrees in crank temperature to hold down low. Furthermore it meaning that the oil enters between the ƒMƒUƒMƒU of pyramid condition, also lubricating efficiency improves.
In other words the F1 black metal makes potential rise possible with the friction decrease of the crank, actualizes the improvement of durability by holding down crank temperature. Actually, as for the effect at the point where many tuners have already verified. The ƒ[ƒ?ƒˆƒ“ƒ^ƒCƒ€ was reduced nearly 1 second with a pop, there are no with several degrees until now and when they used the F1 metal in the RB26 of the ƒnƒCƒ`ƒ…?[ƒ“ where the metal has burned, the case that is not unusual, it stopped burning, it seems. It is durability of the F1 black metal itself which, becomes matter of concern, but the live may think 2 times that the normal metal.
*In world of F1, that M. ShoeMach Ferrari - being used, the F1 black metal which obtains numerous victory. It improves potential and durability together, it is the attention part whose cost performance is high. [/quote] *(are they saying that Ferrari F1 team uses Power Enterprise bearings??? if so i think they should work)
CON ROD - CA18DE (T) 20,000 yenCrank/Mains - CA18DE (T) 29,000 yen
the come in different grades and thickness just like the OE here is the link for info on that.
Grade and Thickness for F1 Black Bearings
Power Enterprise Link (in english - translated)
If you mention the highest peak of motor sport, after all it probably is the F1. The ƒgƒbƒvƒhƒ‰ƒCƒo?[ of the world competes technique, there is also a reason that is funny as a race/lace, but also always saying the leading edge mechanism, has raised the position and charm of the F1.
Because the ultra-advanced technology which is thrown to the F1, whatever saying, polishes under that severe condition, if it is fed back generally, you promise high reliability and high performance. Being " F1 technology " how word it is expressed well, but also this F1 black metal, just is F1 technology itself. Those which stretch copper * lead alloy being attached on the steel base where strength is difficult to cause plastic deformation high are used to the high rotary engine and the like. It is the kelmet metal where this is used usually.
The F1 black metal, furthermore through nickel bond layer, has stretched the overlay of the thickness 15 micron which is a kind of coating. The high performance where this overlay is preeminent the F1 black metal is administered. Surface condition of overlay, having entered state of the kind of ƒMƒUƒMƒU the pyramid to be piled up, when you set the crank, contacts in the point vis-a-vis the general metal contacting in the surface. Because of that the friction decreases substantially. Furthermore when heat generation is little in comparison with the metal of interview touching, uses the usual kelmet metal compared to you say it is possible as many as 20 degrees in crank temperature to hold down low. Furthermore it meaning that the oil enters between the ƒMƒUƒMƒU of pyramid condition, also lubricating efficiency improves.
In other words the F1 black metal makes potential rise possible with the friction decrease of the crank, actualizes the improvement of durability by holding down crank temperature. Actually, as for the effect at the point where many tuners have already verified. The ƒ[ƒ?ƒˆƒ“ƒ^ƒCƒ€ was reduced nearly 1 second with a pop, there are no with several degrees until now and when they used the F1 metal in the RB26 of the ƒnƒCƒ`ƒ…?[ƒ“ where the metal has burned, the case that is not unusual, it stopped burning, it seems. It is durability of the F1 black metal itself which, becomes matter of concern, but the live may think 2 times that the normal metal.
*In world of F1, that M. ShoeMach Ferrari - being used, the F1 black metal which obtains numerous victory. It improves potential and durability together, it is the attention part whose cost performance is high. [/quote] *(are they saying that Ferrari F1 team uses Power Enterprise bearings??? if so i think they should work)
CON ROD - CA18DE (T) 20,000 yenCrank/Mains - CA18DE (T) 29,000 yen
the come in different grades and thickness just like the OE here is the link for info on that.
Grade and Thickness for F1 Black Bearings
they also got timing belts for CA18DE (T) 16,000 yenand complete powersteering, aircondition and alternator BeltsCA 18DE (T) 16,000 yen
http://www.power-enterprise.co.jp
i say we get a little group buy going
http://www.power-enterprise.co.jp
i say we get a little group buy going
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iliketocrash
- Posts: 1109
- Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 5:58 am
"haven't heard of rod bearing failures" ?? You obviously haven't visitedhttp://www.sxoc.com/vbb/forumd...id=10
didn't mean to alarm anyone, but I think this is more of an "old nissan turbo 4cyl" thing, than it is a CA prob. When SR bottom end let go, often ends up with a nice hole in the block
oe stuff is solid quality, so I'll stick to that for now. I'll try grade pulsar bearings. Those aftermarket items seem suited for hi output ca buildups that some of you guys are after
didn't mean to alarm anyone, but I think this is more of an "old nissan turbo 4cyl" thing, than it is a CA prob. When SR bottom end let go, often ends up with a nice hole in the block
oe stuff is solid quality, so I'll stick to that for now. I'll try grade pulsar bearings. Those aftermarket items seem suited for hi output ca buildups that some of you guys are after
so if you did this group buy what would the pricing be on the bearings? I really wanted to take my block apart (I'm already taking the head off before it all goes into my car, and I want to take care of everything while the engine is apart) but I am new to the CA and I don't know what bearings will fit and such. I'm planning on building mine up eventually to make some more serious power (maybe 350 HP) but thats nothing compared to a lot of the CA's I've seen. I wonder if OE bearings would still work fine for me.And if so, whats this talk about grades? sorry for the ignorance, I'm still learning.
$410 for rods & mains is crazy. I see experienced builders running ACL, King, Vandervell etc. in other 4-500 whp 4 cylinders. Nothing exotic. Unless those bearings are for 10000rpm motors, but who's goin' there ?Cranks ride on oil. As long as the clearances and oiling is solid, we should be ok for our 400whp, 20psi, 8000rpm CAs. Although I found no answers here, I'll just stick with GRADED oem bearings as some sucessful rebuild SR guys swear by.andrave,If "350 HP is nothing compared to a lot of the CA's I've seen"Find out from those folks what a *hi powered* ca18det needs to stay alive, and post back
I guess he was referring to 5-600hp CAs ("350hp is nothing")I'm curious to see a buildup of oneFor us street 3-400 whp guys, I think its critical to restore bearing clearances to like new, if you want the fun to last. I've noticed some guys with well tuned CAs knock 350+whp on their bone stock motors.Reports of 22-24psi spurts even mentioned... on stock headgasket and pistons too. Obviously everything else was in order, on a tight motor.I'll shoot for 350whp on a "hot" T28. There's an SR dyno thread on freshalloy now, that put down 384hp/356tq to the WHEELS @20psi, using one. Not bad for a bolt on "small" turbo. I emailed that guy almost 2yrs ago, for his turbo specs, as I saw the combination was clicking. I've seen similiar numbers from GT balli$tic$ and t3/4.... its all in the combo.
350 is quite a bit for a street car, but that would be the higher end of crank horsepower.I'm hoping to land somewhere around 275-325 HP at the rear wheels within a year or two.
And by the 350 being nothing, I've seen several CA's in japan doing numbers well above 400, and I've seen several 300 HP plus CA's with no mention of aftermarket bearings.
Didn't mean to insult or anything like that, just trying to figure out if "only" 300-350 hp would be enough to justify 400 dollar bearings....
And by the 350 being nothing, I've seen several CA's in japan doing numbers well above 400, and I've seen several 300 HP plus CA's with no mention of aftermarket bearings.
Didn't mean to insult or anything like that, just trying to figure out if "only" 300-350 hp would be enough to justify 400 dollar bearings....
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boost_boy
- Posts: 7051
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:28 am
- Car: B12 sentra w/built CA18DET, B12 sentra w/fully-built CA18DET, S13 coupe w/ CA18DET, S13 hatch w/CA18DET, 2002 maxima SE
- Location: Miami, FL.
- Contact:
Well, I'm using ACL bearings in my motor and am shooting for a specified HP figure well in excess of 400whp! I wouldn't necessarily say 350whp is "nothing" because most U.S. CA18DET owners are barely seeing 200whp and that's with a few bolt-ons. And a car like mine with 250whp is staggering on the street, so one could only imagine what it must belike to have the same car at say "500whp". A 240sx with a 300+whp CA18DET is nothing to shake a stick at, but different people will experience different mechanical issues with their CA18's. I never lost a FWD/4WD CA18DET to bad bearings, but have toasted a few pistons. Building HP is easier said than done and this my friends is the Gospel!
yeah, for right now I'm focusing on gathering a lot of quality parts and shooting for a small turbo (either T28 or maybe sr20 T25) and maybe 200 rwhp before I start to turn up the wick. Its also important to mention that my car is still a daily driver and I'm hoping to move to a city with public transportation soon (which would mean I wouldn't need the 240 as much from day to day).
Quest, you seem knowledgeable on this issue...I recently checked my crank and every thing I could measure seemed to be PERFECT...however, in the interest of the engine living for a long time, I might be interested in having it "cut" and getting the appropriate oversized bearings (I'm assuming they are just thicker and nothing about the rods big end bore has to change, right?). Do you have any idea how much it costs to have a crank "cut"? I think by cut you mean ground, correct? Thanks!
You're in the same boat as I am.'cut' means ground, turned or machined.I'd hate to cut a crank in top shape... machine shop will probably ask why. I've had (and seen) cut cranks hold up excellent tho'.I'd only resize rods on a full perf buildup, or if I had some sorta issues.my last 4cyl crank cost ~$120, shop supplied the .010 undersized bearings (yes they are thicker).
boost_boy,did you run ACL standard bearings on an unturned crank... for lotsa miles ?
boost_boy,did you run ACL standard bearings on an unturned crank... for lotsa miles ?
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iliketocrash
- Posts: 1109
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boost_boy
- Posts: 7051
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:28 am
- Car: B12 sentra w/built CA18DET, B12 sentra w/fully-built CA18DET, S13 coupe w/ CA18DET, S13 hatch w/CA18DET, 2002 maxima SE
- Location: Miami, FL.
- Contact:
'Yes" and lotsa hard driving with highboost involved. Each of my engines saw better than 20psi and each one's crank was totally crisp upon inspection. I did have one U.S. spec pulsar CA18DE crank do the do back in 1997, but none of the DET engine's crank or bearings have let me down.did you run ACL standard bearings on an unturned crank... for lotsa miles ?