CA Potential

[KaZ (VaBch)]

Does the CA have just as much potential as the SR?

Thx

[Dori Dori]

The valve train on the CA ownz the SR, but SR's are making some sick HP on stock bottom ends (and breaking a lot of rockers along the way, hehe). So far I think 54-something is the record. With all the money in the world thrown into each of them, who knows which would make more hp. You have to ask yourself how much do you want to make and how committed will you be to your motor (or should I say, how easy do you want it to be to make that power). The CA may need a little TLC right off the bat, while the SR will probably be ready to rumble. But with a little love, the CA can put out some very respectable numbers. You want to make 450whp without messing with the block, go SR. You want a more realistic 300-350, it's a toss up b/c both motors can deliver but it's how they'll deliver that makes each one special. The SR will have more around the town low end grunt while the CA will need to be revved to really shine. If you're trying to save money by going CA, don't because if you're doing it right (all new seals, timing belt, ect) you'll spend just as much if not more. I can write more, but I'm tired of typing. :oface Search around here for more answers.

[r34 gtr]

whaaaaat?! the CA block is absofreakinglutely indestructable. it will handle waaay more power on the factory internals than the SR and has a vastly superior valvetrain to boot. you want to know about the rediculousness of these motors in factory internal form? just ask dee. my friend revved mine to 9k rpm bone stock (yeah, he has never even been in my car since), ive run it out of oil twice (dipstick was dry, engine knocking like hell) and run it out of coolant once (drove it for an hour and it died, filled it up with coolant the next day and it started right up) and it runs fine to this day. try that with your sissy aluminum SR. sure the CA may need a little freshening up but its nothing that you wouldnt want to do to a SR if you were to swap one in.

the CA will however probably (and youll want to change it anyway) need a new turbo as the stock ones tend to die. they really suck so youll want to replace it with at least a t28 even if it does work fine. also, due to a little bit smaller displacement the CA will not spool larger turbos until its higher in the revs. there are ways around it, the gt25 with the .63 housing, a well matched t3/t04 hybrid, etc. which you can use to make some serious power.

any engine has as much potential as any other if you have enough money. Dee is currently building a beast of a CA that will (and i quote!!) "see 600+ whp or die trying". i doubt that it will die trying.

i can confidently say that you can have a CA in your car, running, for less than an SR. example: i originally wanted a SR, it was going to cost me $2800 shipped for the front clip. i ended up with about 2500 when it was time to buy it, so i got my CA clip for $1500 shipped. including the car ($1350) it cost me about $3600 to get it on the road. the extra $750 was used to buy parts for the car - brake master cylinder, pads, tires, etc. and to freshen up the engine. im assuming that it probably took me an absolute maximum of $1800 to get the engine in and running. that leaves me (well, left me. its gone now) with about 700 bucks extra to throw around vs. the SR.

now that i have it, i absolutely love my CA and will never even consider buying a SR in the future. i dont think i would change it out for anything else. and for the record, my car pulls me around town just fine and has easily enough power to haul you around town if you shift at 2500rpm. mine has 164 lb/ft of torque in near stock form. its a hoss. im done ranting now, maybe dee or the mad scientist or someone will come and clear everything up in a couple of words..i cant but i stand by what i said.

- tim

[PacManVR4]

There is nothing wrong with either motor, I just love the way a CA is made. Iron block, aluminum head and a t-belt. Less mass moving around. You can get crazy with either one. I perfer a ca just becouse Im diffrent.

[Dori Dori]

whaaaaat?! the CA block is absofreakinglutely indestructable. it will handle waaay more power on the factory internals than the SR and has a vastly superior valvetrain to boot. you want to know about the rediculousness of these motors in factory internal form? just ask dee.

:rolleyes You're very misinformed if you think the stock bottom end on a CA will handle more than an SR. Like I said, there's a 54-something WHP stock block SR that holds the record and 5 more 500+WHP stock block SR's that I know of. The guy w/ the record holding SR is running low 10's and traps over 140mph. Once he gets a transmission that can hold the power, he's hoping for 9's...on a stock block. Let that one register for a minute. The general consensus around here agrees that 325-350 WHP is the max you should take a stock block CA. It's simple math at this point. Also, I started out my reply commenting on how much better the CA's valve train was, so there was no reason for you to even mention that. I also said that those SR's broke a lot of rockers along the way...more negatives about it's valve train. As for revving to 9 grand, doing that on a regular basis w/ a stock CA will eventually break something. You have to remember that even though it lacks rockers it still has hydraulic lifters and even if you did replace those w/ solid tappets you'll still have to deal w/ lubrication issues and your crank. Anyway, you should research more before you "whaaaaat" me or other people. I only posted facts, whether you want to believe them or not. And for the record, I am a CA advocate but I still have to give credit where credit's due and any stock block 4-banger that can hold 540+whp and see the drag strip and dyno on a regular basis without shooting rods through the block gets my props. I wish the CA could do that...I really do.

[Dori Dori]

now that i have it, i absolutely love my CA and will never even consider buying a SR in the future. i dont think i would change it out for anything else. and for the record, my car pulls me around town just fine and has easily enough power to haul you around town if you shift at 2500rpm. mine has 164 lb/ft of torque in near stock form. its a hoss. im done ranting now, maybe dee or the mad scientist or someone will come and clear everything up in a couple of words..i cant but i stand by what i said.

Do you really think I implied that a CA wouldn't be drivable around town? The point I was trying to get across was that an SR will deliver more low end grunt and a more linear powerband than the CA making it easier and more desirable for everyday driving. There's ups and downs to everything so don't be so defensive.

[Dori Dori]

Just in case you don't beleive me, here's the link to Enjuku's car's dyno. Stock block SR. OEM headgasket too (IIRC)! BTW, they are NOT the record holders.

http://www.enjukuracing.com/ken/racecar/544.jpg

[PacManVR4]

I think just about any factory turbo 4 banger bottom end will make over 450 whp with correct fuel and timing. Im not saying what knock or detonation would do it....

[Dori Dori]

Yeah...I see we've spent too much time in DSM world.

[PacManVR4]

LOL. I love asking "Why did you build your motor, Your only making 400 wheel" lol

[NeedCAforS13]

IIRC Secret Services in Tampa holds the current stock bottom end SR20 record, but it might have shifted back to Enjuku. They're all within 10 whp of each other, so they're basically the same:) Crazy florida tuners...

I think the reason there aren't any (or many) stock bottom end CA's in the 400+ range is becuase no one tries it with the CA. CA18 owners are generally one of 2 things... low budget boosters looking for 250-300 whp, who leave most of the motor stock. OR big hp number guys, who don't bother pushing stock bottom ends to their limits. Guys like boost_boy and ca19 don't care about making max. numbers on stock bottom ends, so they replace factory stuff with forged stuff right from the start.

IMO a stock bottom end CA, with proper tuning and all the supporting mods the SR guys use, would get in the same 400-450whp range as they are with stock bottom end SR's. I could be wrong, but more than likely so could you...

Sean

[boost_boy]

whaaaaat?! the CA block is absofreakinglutely indestructable. it will handle waaay more power on the factory internals than the SR and has a vastly superior valvetrain to boot. you want to know about the rediculousness of these motors in factory internal form? just ask dee. my friend revved mine to 9k rpm bone stock (yeah, he has never even been in my car since), ive run it out of oil twice (dipstick was dry, engine knocking like hell) and run it out of coolant once (drove it for an hour and it died, filled it up with coolant the next day and it started right up) and it runs fine to this day. try that with your sissy aluminum SR. sure the CA may need a little freshening up but its nothing that you wouldnt want to do to a SR if you were to swap one in.

the CA will however probably (and youll want to change it anyway) need a new turbo as the stock ones tend to die. they really suck so youll want to replace it with at least a t28 even if it does work fine. also, due to a little bit smaller displacement the CA will not spool larger turbos until its higher in the revs. there are ways around it, the gt25 with the .63 housing, a well matched t3/t04 hybrid, etc. which you can use to make some serious power.

any engine has as much potential as any other if you have enough money. Dee is currently building a beast of a CA that will (and i quote!!) "see 600+ whp or die trying". i doubt that it will die trying.

i can confidently say that you can have a CA in your car, running, for less than an SR. example: i originally wanted a SR, it was going to cost me $2800 shipped for the front clip. i ended up with about 2500 when it was time to buy it, so i got my CA clip for $1500 shipped. including the car ($1350) it cost me about $3600 to get it on the road. the extra $750 was used to buy parts for the car - brake master cylinder, pads, tires, etc. and to freshen up the engine. im assuming that it probably took me an absolute maximum of $1800 to get the engine in and running. that leaves me (well, left me. its gone now) with about 700 bucks extra to throw around vs. the SR.

now that i have it, i absolutely love my CA and will never even consider buying a SR in the future. i dont think i would change it out for anything else. and for the record, my car pulls me around town just fine and has easily enough power to haul you around town if you shift at 2500rpm. mine has 164 lb/ft of torque in near stock form. its a hoss. im done ranting now, maybe dee or the mad scientist or someone will come and clear everything up in a couple of words..i cant but i stand by what i said.

- tim

I agree with Tim here in the fact that bang for the buck, the CA wins!Quote »The point I was trying to get across was that an SR will deliver more low end grunt and a more linear powerband than the CA[/quote] This is true, as the KA24DE(T) will do this better than the SR. It's all about the displacement and stroke.

Quote »making it easier and more desirable for everyday driving.[/quote] For who, the everyday turbo-heads who just want to zip from light to light? In most cases for SR20DET owners both FWD/RWD, they are very quick from light to light, but you get 'em on the top end and the 1.8 owns them (especially my woman's sentra). SR20s are very good for the track, but then again so are the CA18s. In stock form, the SR20 feels stronger than a CA18DET and this accounts for the extra displacement and stroke. The CA18 came with a piss-head turbo, whereas the SR20 got a better piss-head turbo and this makes a big difference in performance; especially when there's a difference in physical size. Stock for stock and similar mods, the CA is the more assuring motor. Too many moving parts in the SR's valve train; too much will be compromised if something went wrong (ie broken rocker arm, detonation on that alloy block or timing chain/keeper gets cute. If one wanted to argue, why did nissan design the RB series off the CA's platform and not base it off the old chain style FJ and L-series motors.

The SR and KA was nissan's last ditch effort to stay competitive in a fast moving high tech 4 cylinder market, without breaking the bank; oh yeah, they were already broke when they designed these motors.

Quote »There's ups and downs to everything so don't be so defensive.[/quote] Once again you are correct, but someone needs to stand for Nissan heritage and I think he's doing just that.

Quote »I think the reason there aren't any (or many) stock bottom end CA's in the 400+ range is becuase no one tries it with the CA.[/quote] Man Sean, you so stinking correct. I mean why! Who cares if people are boosting stock SR blocks to 500hp? And one would wonder if it's even stock or hasn't been refreshed. The fact of the matter is, seems like some of nissan's SR20 community is going through a lot trying to justify the greatness of the SR20, when in all acuality, they're possibly trying to turn out people's light on their weaknesses as well.

I've wrenched on both of them and can honestly say that as a nissan 4 cylinder specialist (both wiring and mechanics), the SR20 is mechanically clumsy, bulky and cheap. And well, the CA18DET is mechanically simple, squared and old school. And we all know that the old school rules.

I'm doing better than 400whp on a stock CA, so don't count us out at a mere 300-350! I don't spend my time at a dyno trying to impress others, but I am one to prove to myself and my CA brethren, that we have a solid foundation that they should never be ashamed of or regret.

Quote »Guys like boost_boy and ca19 don't care about making max. numbers on stock bottom ends, so they replace factory stuff with forged stuff right from the start.[/quote] Once again Sean, you are right. I've proven these engines from stock to built. The stock headgasket can take as much boost as you can throw at it as long as your timing and fuel is spot on and as long as you don't try and sustain it. I honestly believe that if I wanted to drop 500hp from the stock bottom end, I more than likely can. But why would I build my head to a kick-arse state and leave the bottom end with the factory crapola pistons and rods in there (makes no sense). Unless, someone is trying to gain acceptance for something has fallen short of expectations.

So for the record, the CA18DET will do just as much damage if not more than the SR with comparable mods. The FWD CA18DET will stomp a mud-hole in the FWD SR20DET engines in both design and all-out performance to include transmission. I can whack-off 120mph in 3rd gear@7500rpm and not worry about my gearbox flying apart, but who cares; no one. Who cares if people claim to pump x-amount of HP on a stock SR bottom end?

I personally would have watch them take a JDM motor straight off a container, strap on their standlone, turbo and injectors and see this for myself. I'm not saying it's impossible, but in case anyone didn't realize it, those heads are well worked and probably got the best cams, valve springs and cams to assist, so who was to say x individual(s) didn't go farther and refresh or replace the bottom end. All too controversial, but if so, more power to them all and congratulations "I ain't hatin".

It's okay to build power, but build it reliably. And BTW Dori Dori, who wants to drive around town on boost all the time? Only a ricer! I actually hate it. I love it when the power doesn't come on till 3000+rpm or when I decide that it's time to shake *** and get it loose a bit, especially when my A/C is turned off;) .

[PacManVR4]

I plan on making at least 360 or more on the stock bottom end. I hope my baby HKS can do it, If not here gomes a big Forced Performance BB garret and me shooting for 450 plus. Dee, You said it right Its all about fuel and timing, Detonate and your gone.

[Dori Dori]

You guys are waaaay too defensive (not PacManVR4)and are taking everything I said out of context. Did you completely miss the part where I said I was a CA advocate? Do you have trouble with the word advocate…here’s some synonyms: supporter, backer, promoter, believer… EG; I like the motor better but I am unbiased enough to see the ups and downs of the two. Obviously some of you are not.

NeedCAforS13, first off Secret Services does not hold the record and neither does Enjuku. It's a guy buy the name of Sean who has a SR in a RX7. Ironically he is also in FL. Secondly, go ahead and try to make 400-450whp on your stock block CA. I'd love to see it (no sarcasm intended). And Boostboy…*sigh*. It's funny that you sing a completely different tune when you are dealing with a potential client. It's really sad you just posted that 'holier than thou' garbage because I was going to be doing business with you...was being the opportune word. I was actually looking forward to dealing with you. You didn't know who I was (I've recently been corresponding with you via email about buying a CA, SDS, and having you tune it...know now?) and you let your mouth get the best of you. But who cares, right? They'll be other customers. And btw, most of your claims about CA vs SR (aside from the head) are based on nothing but speculation or pure rumor. I have yet to see anything that backs up CA people's claims that RB's were designed off of them. The most I've seen was from an OLD Japanese magazine that stated the CA's head design was largely influenced by the VG’s (which was being designed along side it) and that was also speculation and rumor. Look, facts are facts and the highest HP stock motor award goes to the SR as does the highest HP modified motor. Go ahead and prove me wrong, I'd like to see it. Honestly, because as I've said before, I LIKE THE CA BETTER! It would be f'n amazing if you could pull 500 whp on a stock CA, drive it everyday, and run it at the tracks w/ no problems (except the transmission, heh). Really!

Quote »The fact of the matter is, seems like some of nissan's SR20 community is going through a lot trying to justify the greatness of the SR20, when in all acuality, they're possibly trying to turn out people's light on their weaknesses as well.[/quote]Bologna! I'm not an SR person first of all, I'm a Nissan enthusiast. I'm not trying to justify a darn thing. You all are the ones focusing solely on the SR's inherent weaknesses and making excuses for the CA's. I have no trouble, as anyone can clearly see, pointing out the weaknesses of the SR. If that comment wasn’t directed towards me, then it was in vain because there aren’t many SR people running around in the CA section and if they are it’s because they are interested (in one way or another) in the CA. One can assume if that’s the case, they’re probably not the type of people to preach about the SR’s ‘greatness’.

Quote »For who, the everyday turbo-heads who just want to zip from light to light? In most cases for SR20DET owners both FWD/RWD, they are very quick from light to light, but you get 'em on the top end and the 1.8 owns them (especially my woman's sentra).[/quote]&

Quote »And BTW Dori Dori, who wants to drive around town on boost all the time? Only a ricer! I actually hate it.[/quote]OMG, I'm thinking of putting that last comment on my signature. Classic. That last statement is completely incongruous to what you wrote in an email to me. I won’t post it up because those are private and I still hold some level of respect for you… Anyway, you think the SR has trouble up top or doesn't suffer from the same turbo lag a CA does? Just look at the Dyno I posted...peak power at about 7500rpm and BARELY dropping off by 8000+. Lag and a peaky top end…sounds like any high boosting petroleum gas powered turbo car to me! Lack of top end my toosh! The only turbo’d engines lacking in much lag are diesels, and that’s not part of this discussion.

And as for bang for the buck, I disagree. Reason being that I would never do a CA swap without spending a decent chunk of cash on revamping the motor. If I weren't rebuilding the bottom end, I'd at least overhaul the entire motor...something most SR's won't need (although the quality of motor sets has gone down recently). If they were of equal wear and tear, then I'd agree. You can pick up an SR t25 for next to nothing, slap it on and the differences in peak power would be like splitting hairs. This arguement really boils down to, IMHO, how long you want your invest to last and the quality of the clips.

:thumbd

[NeedCAforS13]

NeedCAforS13, first off Secret Services does not hold the record and neither does Enjuku. It's a guy buy the name of Sean who has a SR in a RX7. Ironically he is also in FL. Secondly, go ahead and try to make 400-450whp on your stock block CA. I'd love to see it (no sarcasm intended).

is that the SR powered FD with the funky wrap around the front of the motor turbo manifold? that thing is SICK! but I still think that all the high hp SR guys are within 10 hp of each other, and who's winning changes on a monthly basis.

and i didn't say I'D be the one making 400whp on a stock block... 1.) I have no need to push stock stuff, I'll just go forged internals for reliability's sake and 2.) I don't have anywhere near the kind of cashflow the shops or the RX7 guy have, so until I do, I won't be pushing over 300whp

And lighten up Dori Dori, I realize you are a CA advocate, hell you've been here as long as I can remember:)... if you read Dee's post, he makes some very valid points... why push a "stock" SR block to the breaking point? It doesn't make much sense to me either. He just gets pissed (as do most of us) with all the SR hype.

They're both very capable motors, and to be honest, I wouldn't mind having both motors, if I had the money... That would be fun! I'd love to wake up every morning and ask "Should I drive the CA powered coupe or SR powered hatch today?" haha:D that'd be sweet. and if its sunny, take the rb powered 'vert for a spin;)

Sean

[Dori Dori]

Yes, that's the FD and yes that is a crazy manifold. I personally think his turbo selection was poor and Enjuku's and SS's were much better, but that's another discussion.

It does make sense IMHO to push a stock block to it's limits b/c as you said before, not all of us have mega cashflow and knowing an engine's limits gives guys without the money to build up, a realistic HP goal with a large margin of safety. If an SR's block can hold x hp, then you know it can safely hold x-y hp. Same goes for built bottom ends too...knowing the limitations is a good thing. Besides, isn't that what this thread was all about? The engine's potentials? He never specified stock or built which is why I originally said with all the money in the world, who knows; and on stock blocks...well, you get the picture. Just read my first reply. Hell, I could have even brought up 1bad's 180sx making over 400whp on a completely stock engine...head and all.

And I will not lighten up when ridiculous, sarcastic comments are slated directly at me. Especially when they are paradoxical comments coming from someone I was planning on doing business with. It's insulting and I don't appreciate being insulted.

[boost_boy]

Hey Dori Dori or Mr. M,

Whether I knew who you were or not is totally irrelevant, so why bring that up. You even wrote in an email that you know how I feel about the engine, but that doesn't mean I'm suppose to sing a different tune in a good debate such as this one.

If you took that personal or figured if it was directed towards you, then you're petty. You pick what you want to pick and that's it; it's your money. I guess the truth hurts sometimes, but I'm not one to sugar-coat a d@mn thing when it comes to nissan motors. Heck, my best friends use the SR and KA and the KA powered ones are putting out more than 470+whp, but I still don't like them and that's my personal/final answer. I hate chains "Point Blank".

I'm very disappointed in the cheap valve train of the SR, but if you had read my post well, you would see that I gave it's accolades. Though not a remarkable engine, it kicks butt. I want to quote some of the things you said and let you have it, but only bitter people let a simple debate get the best of them.

I'm sorry I don't kiss butt to gain your business, I put my knowledge and experience in your face and you still have the glorified option to chose whatever you want.

But my friend, you're right about one thing about me losing a potential client, if they all are going to be bitter like you and take pock-shots at someone like myself who is willing to help them, then I really don't need that type of drama. Sorry you let it get this far bro, but you should watch your mouth and speak what you know. You really shouldn't use a debate as means of ending something beneficial to you. I don't get it.

[boost_boy]

Quote »It does make sense IMHO to push a stock block to it's limits b/c as you said before,[/quote] And it really doesn't make sense if you already know what it can do!

[Dori Dori]

Really, I'm amazed. Do you even know what you wrote? When sentances start 'hey dori dori', that means they are directed to me. Petty? Please!

When I said I know how you feel about the SR, I meant that I knew you preferred the CA. That was my point...I thought that was obvious.

Like I said before, I knew you wouldn't care about losing a client. This seems to be the attitude of most tuners unfortunately. And where do you think my bitterness came from? My rear? No. From your comments of course!

Pock-shots? Hmmm, if you consider me pointing out your contradicting statements as 'pock-shots', then yes...guilty as charged. I felt they were necessary to point out though, being that both comments were made to me at one point or another and were directly related to this discussion.

And how would you know the limits of a motor if nobody ever discovered them before? And why is it the limits of the CA are all speculation?

I really don't care anyway. At this point, I feel like we may as well be kicking one of these:

[Nismo1182]

Theres really no point in this going on until someone takes a stock bottom end CA with head upgrades and whatever else is needed and extracts the max hp out of it.

[NeedCAforS13]

true

Sean