Buying an intercooler--want to clarify some myths.

[MarkEmark]

Hey, I've read the threads here about bar and plate vs. tube and fin--and there seems to be quite a bit of misinformation saying how much more efficient/superior/more expensive bar and plate is versus tube and fin.

However, the turbo expert, Corky Bell himself makes no such distinction. Quoted directly from the FAQ section of his site:

"Does one style core cool better than another?No, almost no difference. With three decades of testing intercooler’s, we have found no appreciable difference between any core style or manufacturer. Keep in mind, that the merit of a core is it’s efficiency versus its internal drag characteristics. When sized for a tolerable flow loss, virtually all cores will produce essentially the same efficiency results. Perhaps a core with slightly less flow area per linear inch, or one with longer tubes, will need perhaps 5% more tubes to equal the best of intercooler’s with regard to flow loss and efficiency. Not a very important difference."

And...

"What are the variations in core construction used in intercoolers?The variations are in the style of manufacture of the core material. A “Bar and Plate”-Style Core is made by brazing up a layered structure of flat plates separated by small rectangular spacers. A “Tube and Flange”-Style Core is created by extending a series of tubes through a header flange and brazing the assembly together. For heavy duty applications, pressure spikes up to 250 psig and rugged environments, ”Solid Extruded Tube”-Style Cores are available."

Anyway, it seems that on places like ebay there are an abundance of bar and plate intercoolers for pretty cheap prices. However, these are all no-name brand intercoolers sold by no-name companies. But, they are rather cheap (almost always under $300). And, none of these companies state the efficiency of the intercooler OR the pressure drop--which I think is a pretty important thing to know when buying one.

I'll be getting one for my birthday (feb 7) and want to know what you guys prefer from PERSONAL experience as to what you think would be the best intercooler--either a cheap, no-name brand one from ebay that I know nothing about that is bar and plate, or a billet tube-and-fin design air/air intercooler from JGStools.com that costs $399.

http://www.jgstools.com/turbo/index2.html

What appeals to me so much about the JGS intercooler is that it's the perfect size for my application (2.75 x 8 x 30" overall), and I'm having trouble finding intercoolers that are SHORT enough horizontally/vertically and slim enough for thickness.

I REALLY need an efficient intercooler with very little pressure drop and I don't want to put a piece of crap on my car--I don't like how I'll increase lag by finally intercooling so I want to make sure the factors that can be controlled---efficiency and pressure drop---will be optimized.

Also--what seems to be more durable against stones/road debris--tube and fin or bar and plate?

So basically--cheap, abundant bar-and-plate no-name intercoolers on ebay or billet tube-and-fin whose exact specs I know available from JGS?!?

Thanks for any input....

[TrunkMonkey]

imo, an intercooler's dimensions and where it is placed in a turbo system (placement for best airflow) is much more important than it being bar and plate or tube and fin.

-demetrius

[MarkEmark]

Exactly--placement for cooling's obviously the most important, which is why i can't see the logic in buying this massive, lag-monster intercooler where only 50% of it is exposed to free-flowing ambient air. That and that which such a huge intercooler, it'd slow down the flow to parts of the radiator too.

I have a pretty large opening right in the front bumper--and the intercooler that I want to get, the JGS one, will fit perfectly there--and almost all of it will be exposed to free-flowing ambient air.

I called JGS and they said that tube-and fin is lighter than bar and plate (Which I really like) and that their intercooler is supposedly so well-designed that it's just as efficient as intercoolers a lot bigger--fully extruded tubes and turbulator bla bla bla.

[C-Kwik]

Exactly--placement for cooling's obviously the most important, which is why i can't see the logic in buying this massive, lag-monster intercooler where only 50% of it is exposed to free-flowing ambient air. That and that which such a huge intercooler, it'd slow down the flow to parts of the radiator too.

I have a pretty large opening right in the front bumper--and the intercooler that I want to get, the JGS one, will fit perfectly there--and almost all of it will be exposed to free-flowing ambient air.

I called JGS and they said that tube-and fin is lighter than bar and plate (Which I really like) and that their intercooler is supposedly so well-designed that it's just as efficient as intercoolers a lot bigger--fully extruded tubes and turbulator bla bla bla.

Large intercoolers, even if portions are blocked are able to absorb heat. intercoolers are cooled from the exterior and interior. When off boost, the intake temperatures drop. The laws of physics dictate that heat will transfer to where there is less heat. The incoming intake air will cool the intercooler from the inside whenever the intake air is cooler than the I/C temperature. Also, even the blocked portions of the intercooler will transfer it's heat to areas of the intercooler that are seeing ambient airflow(cooler areas). While optimally, you want to see ambient airflow across the entire face of the core, there are times when the additional ability to absorb heat can be helpful, and perhaps necessary. And factor in that in most cars, most front mounts increase size by adding a wider area of cross-section, which helps to improve flow in relation to the volume. Adding length to the channels would decrease flow while increasing volume.

As far as durability, the bar & plate style tends to be inherently stronger due to it's thicker construction.

[MarkEmark]

Large intercoolers, even if portions are blocked are able to absorb heat. intercoolers are cooled from the exterior and interior. When off boost, the intake temperatures drop. The laws of physics dictate that heat will transfer to where there is less heat. The incoming intake air will cool the intercooler from the inside whenever the intake air is cooler than the I/C temperature. Also, even the blocked portions of the intercooler will transfer it's heat to areas of the intercooler that are seeing ambient airflow(cooler areas). While optimally, you want to see ambient airflow across the entire face of the core, there are times when the additional ability to absorb heat can be helpful, and perhaps necessary. And factor in that in most cars, most front mounts increase size by adding a wider area of cross-section, which helps to improve flow in relation to the volume. Adding length to the channels would decrease flow while increasing volume.

As far as durability, the bar & plate style tends to be inherently stronger due to it's thicker construction.

Thanks...I guess I didn't even give much thought to that. In any case, 10 psi doesn't warrant a huge intercooler as far as I'm concerned, and the one I want can support 450 hp, so it'll be plenty big.

I have two layers of fairly strong screen that will be protecting the intercooler from debris--pretty much nothing will be able to hit the cooler. Therefore, weight's more of a factor for me than strength in this case.

And the i/c I'm getting isn't THAT long...19"....and most of the big ones I see (Greddy, Blitz, Apexi) are at least 25". I'm pretty sure the guys at JGS are selling a good product with that intercooler--and cdigity uses the same kind and seems to like it.

In any case--according to Bell, the differences in construction techniques for the core are usually negligible--and any intercooler will be better than no intercooler.

I just wish it were cheaper; $399 is hard to justify when you see similar-sized intercoolers on ebay for $250.

[02_silver_wagon]

While were on the subject of intercoolers what do you guys think about this intercooler? Keep in mind it is Australian dollars.

[andrave]

oh those "hybrid" ones they are on ebay pretty regularly, look like they are pretty good, but what do I know?

[C-Kwik]

Thanks...I guess I didn't even give much thought to that. In any case, 10 psi doesn't warrant a huge intercooler as far as I'm concerned, and the one I want can support 450 hp, so it'll be plenty big.

I agree, 10 psi probably won' be an issue for most front mount intercoolers in most applications. Hot track days may be a different issue, but there are a lot of factors to consider. Hell, a third of my I/C probably never sees much ambient air, but it had no heat soak at a track event at 6.5 psi.

[aleph1]

I think, generally speaking, bar and plate is slightly more efficient at a cost of blocking more air from the radiator. While tube and fin is visa versa. It makes sense, what do you think air will do when it hits a flat plate vs a rounded tube? It maybe minimal, but the difference is still there.

It is a well known fact that the Apexi FMIC (Tube/fin) flows more to the radiator at a minimal cost to its efficiency. So in conclusion, Corky Bell is not always right. Different manufactuers construct the cores differently, there may not be a measurable difference in most, but some are more obvious (Apexi).

I think the best overall FMIC for the money is just a used Starion with modded endtanks. For roughly 200 bucks, you get a perfectly sized FMIC (core dimensions 16-3/4"x8-1/8"x2-11/16"), great for daily driven, lower boost (under 1bar).

[andrave]

starion is not perfectly sized for 450 hp dude, what are you smoking?starion is a small core with restrictive end tanks, modifying them is a pain....blah

[TrunkMonkey]

It is a well known fact that the Apexi FMIC (Tube/fin) flows more to the radiator at a minimal cost to its efficiency.

apexi has their own special design for their intercoolers. it's a modified bar and plate designed for better flow.

-demetrius

[MarkEmark]

starion is not perfectly sized for 450 hp dude, what are you smoking?starion is a small core with restrictive end tanks, modifying them is a pain....blah

But--you rarely see intercoolers with greater than 70% efficiency, and almost no one publishes any efficiency statistics. I know for a fact that the JGS one is 70%---and I doubt a bar/plate would be much higher than that, if at all.

I was lookin at Project Silvia's intercooler kits and the Blitz/HKS/Greddy ones, IIRC, are tube/fin, NOT bar/plate.

NO ONE said a starion is perfectly sized for 450 hp, dude.I said it can SUPPORT 450 hp, a number the vast vast vast majority of us will never reach (and certainly not me). I'm not referring to the starion ones that you see on ebay all the time--I'm referring to the STARION-STYLE intercoolers from JGS. I was saying if it can support 450 hp, it sure as hell can support 275.

[aleph1]

starion is not perfectly sized for 450 hp dude, what are you smoking?starion is a small core with restrictive end tanks, modifying them is a pain....blah

I said it should hold up decently for UNDER 1Bar, if you can make 450Hp under a bar...lemme know.

[aleph1]

apexi has their own special design for their intercoolers. it's a modified bar and plate designed for better flow.

-demetrius

Did not know this. I suppose I was hypocritical saying that not all manufactuers intercoolers are the same, then saying Apexi is a tube/fin...lol