Butterfly control Solenoid

[Nunook]

I know most ppl disconnect the butterfly valves, but can someone post up wat plug on the harness goes to the Butterfly control solenoid, and wat color the wires r?

When i look at the diagram in the FSM I only see the wires for the pressure regulator solenoid.

thanks,

[float_6969]

The ECU runs devices like that off of a ground switch. Basically what that means is that you will feed 12V+ to a solenoid, and then feed the other wire to the butterfly contol wire on the ECU. The ECU will then open and close the circut via connecting that wire to ground, thusly opening and closing the solenoid wich will cut off or supply vaccuum to the butterfly. You will need to source a solenoid (one that doesn't leak) a vaccuum canister, and a check valve.

[NeedCAforS13]

updated 01/18/05:figured out that it's a vacuum delay valve not a check valve between the solenoid and the actuator! part # 14958-V6700, can be found on quite a few USDM vehicles.not sure how to make the photopost thing update so here is a link to the updated diagram: here

copy-paste, will edit into more coherent post some other time:

I think I got the connector from the window wiper motor on a Maxima or something at the junkyard.. just take the dropping resistor with you and try to find something that fits, I had to repin the connector but it'll work fine..

the 4 on the manifold from top to bottom:- boost/vacuum source (FPR T's into it on the back side on MT only, you can get signal for boost gauge from this too, it also goes to the vacuum chamber for the secondary butterfly control if you hook it up correctly)- FPR (on AT only, it's hooked in through a solenoid to boost pressure for hot starts which then is hooked to the top one)- secondary butterfly actuator- filtered unboosted air (goes around the back of the engine on the same bracket the water return is from the turbo, then plumbs into the turbo inlet pipe next to where the crankcase ventilation - within this there is a T to a solenoid the JDM ECU uses to control boost)

the easy way to make things 'work':leave the stock T between FPR and back of plenum and top of the four pipes, loop the top and 2nd from bottom pipes at the other end (which connectsthe actuator to boost/vacuum) OR just T the FPR, actuator, and plenum together.

on the turbo, run a vacuum line from compressor outlet (there's a vacuum nipple there) to the wastegate

the 'correct way':you'll need a vacuum chamber/tank and a checkvalve (or a tank w/ one built in, I'm using one from a 1st gen (I think?) protege that has it built in)

at the back end of the pipes:- the FPR is T'd into the plenum and to the top of the four pipes- nothing on the 2nd pipe from the top (would be FPR & it's control solenoid on AT)- the butterfly actuator connects to the 3rd pipe from the top- the unboosted air line (see above) is connected to the 4th pipe

at the front end of the pipes:- top pipe goes to check valve (allowing airflow TOWARDS manifold, AWAY from vacuum tank) then to vacuum tank- nothing again on 2nd- 3rd pipe goes to actuator control solenoid- 4th pipe goes to actuator control solenoid

the vacuum tank & actuator control solenoid:the vacuum tank on one side goes to the pipes (see above), the other to the solenoid, and the solenoid connects also to the filtered atmos (the bottom pipe) and the actuator (3rd pipe).

If you look at the solenoid (pretty much any KA 3 way solenoid at least) you'll notice it has two pipes at one end (one of which is straight along the axis, the other sticking out at 90 deg angle) and one at the other (on axis)..

IIRC the one by itself should go to atmos line, the other one opposite should be the tank, and the one at 90 deg should go to the actuator. I can check once I get home.

..

Finally, the ECU boost control if you want it, invloves another solenoid on the left side of the engine bay by the turbo. Instead of connecting the wategate directly to the compressor outlet, T those together and the other part of the T goes to the solenoid (normally closed, not sure which end off hand) and then the common part of the solenoid goes to the fresh air line going around the back of the engine from the turbo inlet (T'd in) and the 3rd part of the solenoid is just cap'd off.

The way it seems to work is when the ECU is < X boost is just leaves it open so that the wastegate doesn't get as much boost from the compressor (since it's recirculating the bit that would make it start to close) and then when it hits X it closes it SNAP instant opening and boost control.. that's my theory anyways.

I'm not hooking that up, just going to get a real controller eventually. It's just a little too crazy for me, altho if I get bored I might try to verify how it works and see if it really is tunable, cause i would be nifty if I could romtune it.

When I get home later I'll try and make a more coherent post, that and make sure I didn't screw any of that up. We just mad haxed the FSM and FAST systems the other night to figure out where all this **** should go... but I'm tired and brain is not operating 100%.

-----------------------------------------another temp past until I have time to make it good:

You'll have to have connections on the wiring harness for it of course. We've found out the butterfly control signal, forgot the pin# off hand, might be 56 or something, it's listed in the DATnet CA18DET reference.. the boost solenoid I'm not sure about, based on harness layouts and where Japan FAST shows the vacuum tubing I think the solenoid next to the ignitor on the left (JDM passenger USDM driver) side is it, and I think the 'pressure regulator control solenoid' IIRC it's called in the diagrams might be the right harness connection, as the harness layouts show it over there, the only other thing it might be is for FPR control to raise pressure on hot starts (In Japan only on automatics, and JDM is placed next to the vacuum tank on the driver (JDM) side).. I'm really not for sure which wire it is though, just think thats it. I'm definately sure how the vacuum bits are hooked up though..

I need me a JDM FSM, stat!

the vacuum diagrams (will do something better another time and update my FAQ post with that)..

JDM:http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/...m.jpgEuropean (w/ butterfly control added, basicly used this to show where it goes since its in english):http://nissaninfiniticlub.net/...g.jpgModified by biosehnsucht at 1:29 PM 12/19/2004Modified by float_6969 at 12:34 PM 12/20/2004

Modified by biosehnsucht at 12:58 AM 1/18/2005

[NeedCAforS13]

yeah... not so coherent, but that was what was in the old sticky. I didn't transfer it over because frankly it makes no sense to me I'll let biosehnsucht try and answer this one, and maybe do a new write up on it! (hint hint)

Sean

[float_6969]

Thanks Sean! Email me and tell me where the heck that's at. Bio's lazy, so maybe I'll get rambunctious and mess with it. (JK Bio. Well kinda, you ARE lazy, but I like you, so it's OK )

[Nunook]

I already have all the vacuum stuff, thats not the problem. I have the check valve, vacuum chamber.

which btw can be taken off the US pulsar or an old Maxima/Quest i think. I have the solenoid already. I just dont kno which ecu pin, or color wire to hook it up too.Ima check the datnet thing. Hopefully I find it. thanks guys.

EDIT: I found it on the DatNet site. Its pin #8for anyone that may be interested later on.

[WeldingHank]

i'm more interested where the connector is for the solinoid. so that i can control the butterflys instead of removing them.

[NeedCAforS13]

and thats what they're talking about... I removed mine, and the car feels f'in fast and I don't notice any off the line lag, but to each his own.

[niscort]

This may help things along.

[float_6969]

I've got it hooked up on my SDS. They way mine works is that the butterflys are closed below 3K RPM, and open above that. Also, remember that the "check valve" isn't really a check valve, but a "Vaccuum Delay Valve", There is a difference, and if you use a check valve, the butterfly's will stay shut all the time. I'm actually using one from some ford that my fiance's dad had in a box full of crap in his shop.

[Nunook]

i went to the nissan dealership with the part number for the vacuum delay valve, and they gave me a check valve. I was like WTF.

anyways, Im deciding now whether im gonna hook it up to my ecu(stock use) or use my rpm switch to open them up at 3k.The past few days ive been test driving with and without the valves open. and with my sr t25 I definitly feel the lag off the line.

[biosehnsucht]

the delay valve shows up as check valve depending on which vehicle you look it up on..

[Dattebayo]

If it werent for the diagram I would be totally confused... thanks.

I hope running the valves with my SR T25 is not going to create problems I cant live with at higher RPM's... any personal experience with this?

BTW I am selling a manifold with the valves removed professionally if anyone is interested...

[float_6969]

I'm running an SR T25, and my car is crappy down low. The lightweight flywheel doesn't help either...

[NeedCAforS13]

I guess I just don't feel it... I ran an SR t25 with no butterflies and an HKS lightened flywheel, and I never thought the car felt crappy down low. Even with the GT28 it still feels fine. A little more laggy, but really its OK with me.

Sean

[boost_boy]

The butterfly system on any turbocharged engine is near useless. This system is much more appreciated on naturally aspirated engines, especially on the CA18DE engines. So I say again, those who are hunting for torque on this motor, should breathe, stretch, shake and let it go because this is not the engine for big torque under 3000rpm. You can either concentrate on the engines power zone by helping increasing it's power when it's time to produce power or consider another engine with greater displacement and one that creates gobs of power down low. Trying to remotely get this system to function the way it was intended to from factory and on the CA18DET is pain in the butt that yields no true benefit or significant power gain. So those who care to play with this stuff, you have been warned by someone who've done more than enough experimenting with this motor. Enjoy and good luck .

Dee

[WeldingHank]

if you don't have the solinoid hooked up, will they stay open or shut all the time?

[boost_boy]

if you don't have the solinoid hooked up, will they stay open or shut all the time?

They will stay open!

Dee

[CA19DET]

Quote »The butterfly system on any turbocharged engine is near useless. This system is much more appreciated on naturally aspirated engines, especially on the CA18DE engines. So I say again, those who are hunting for torque on this motor, should breathe, stretch, shake and let it go because this is not the engine for big torque under 3000rpm. You can either concentrate on the engines power zone by helping increasing it's power when it's time to produce power or consider another engine with greater displacement and one that creates gobs of power down low. Trying to remotely get this system to function the way it was intended to from factory and on the CA18DET is pain in the butt that yields no true benefit or significant power gain. So those who care to play with this stuff, you have been warned by someone who've done more than enough experimenting with this motor. Enjoy and good luck[/quote]i understand what you are saying about CA's lacking a lil tourque, but if done correctly allot of manufactureres have shown that secondary intake throttles and variable runners help both torque and fuel economy on obth turbo and NA engines... its jsut how efficient the system is, the CA's maybe a bit outdated, but the swirl effect in the chamber from the secondary throttles being closed at low RPM does increase efficency and burn across the piston and could/should create a vaccum into the chamber from the intake and thus create torque/power at lower rpm before boost takes over...

BUT on a side note, what if you jsut have the butterflies solenoid just hooked up to a vaccum line without a vaccum delay valve/check valve??? i would think on vac, they would be closed and as the engine sees zero vac/boost they would open - correct?

[boost_boy]

i understand what you are saying about CA's lacking a lil tourque, but if done correctly allot of manufactureres have shown that secondary intake throttles and variable runners help both torque and fuel economy on obth turbo and NA engines... its jsut how efficient the system is, the CA's maybe a bit outdated, but the swirl effect in the chamber from the secondary throttles being closed at low RPM does increase efficency and burn across the piston and could/should create a vaccum into the chamber from the intake and thus create torque/power at lower rpm before boost takes over...

BUT on a side note, what if you jsut have the butterflies solenoid just hooked up to a vaccum line without a vaccum delay valve/check valve??? i would think on vac, they would be closed and as the engine sees zero vac/boost they would open - correct?

With this particualr motor, the results I yielded are less favorable. Possibly because I use a much bigger turbo than most of the guys on the forum and they don't spool-up till 3000ish rpm. When I had the system set-up on my CA16DE and CA18DE respectfully and the way the factory intended it, there was a noticeable difference.

It was cheaper for nissan to leave the butterfly system intact for it's domestic market as opposed to restructuring the injector housings for it's foreign market. I'm pretty sure the people in the European sector paid for that difference one way or another.

Dee

[CA19DET]

well i dont get full boost (18psi currently) till ~4200rpm depending on gear, but i did notice a difference with the butterfleis hooked up and not, i currently have them hookoed up and find the turbo spools quicker and the car feels better in low rpm, high gear, part throttle cruising etc..

and i have them with no delay/check/switches/valves etc... just a vac line from the manifold.

[boost_boy]

well i dont get full boost (18psi currently) till ~4200rpm depending on gear, but i did notice a difference with the butterfleis hooked up and not, i currently have them hookoed up and find the turbo spools quicker and the car feels better in low rpm, high gear, part throttle cruising etc..

and i have them with no delay/check/switches/valves etc... just a vac line from the manifold.

So you have no delaying device whatsoever, right? That means this actuator pump opens the butterfly valves up rather quickly because they have no device to keep them shut. They are closed under vacuum until you hit the throttle and then they are wide open for the remainder of your positive pressure adventure (ie underboost or normal driving). I can't really see how much driving difference you would gain under 3000rpm when the butterfly valve's actautor will shut the the butterfly valves quickly after they are opened; especially using the old throw a vacuum on the actuator method. But hey, I'm not knocking what anyone does with their car. If you feel in your everyday driving that having this system hooked-up, that's yours or whomevers perogative. It's just my honest opinion that in the CA18DET application, they are near worthless..........

Dee

[Nunook]

Thats exactly y im spending this time to try and get them hooked up, cause in my everyday driving I feel a difference. Maybe if I had the stock turbo i would completely disable them, or another quicker spooling turbo then my sr t25.

Anyways the last thing i need to get these running correctly is giving me the most problems. I can't find a place to connect the rpm signal for my rpm activated switch. I made another post of this (I probably shouldn't have), but If i tap into either the tach wire(near the ECU), or the check connector by the battery the switch works but the rpm gauge doesn't. A friend suggested that i tap into the wire coming off the CAS, but i dont want to take it from there. Afraid of messing up my CAS! Please any Suggestions would be appreciated.

[boost_boy]

Thats exactly y im spending this time to try and get them hooked up, cause in my everyday driving I feel a difference. Maybe if I had the stock turbo i would completely disable them, or another quicker spooling turbo then my sr t25.

Anyways the last thing i need to get these running correctly is giving me the most problems. I can't find a place to connect the rpm signal for my rpm activated switch. I made another post of this (I probably shouldn't have), but If i tap into either the tach wire(near the ECU), or the check connector by the battery the switch works but the rpm gauge doesn't. A friend suggested that i tap into the wire coming off the CAS, but i dont want to take it from there. Afraid of messing up my CAS! Please any Suggestions would be appreciated.

I do know this much, if you screw around with the tach wires nearest the ecu, you will burn the tach driver in the ecu. Look towards the ignitor or at the tachometer tie down behind the cluster where the signal is strongest.

Dee

[float_6969]

The butteryfly's should be RPM dependant, not load dependant. The problem with hooking them straight up to the manifold is this;At low RPM, full throttle, the manifold goes to nearly atmospheric. This isn't enough vaccuum to keep the butterfly's closed and so they open. At low RPM's, with high load is when you need them closed THE MOST!

My butt-o-meter tells me they make a difference, and it can definatly be seeen/heard when they are opened and shut at idle.

I intend to see exactly HOW much difference they make by dynoing the car with them open one run, and then running them closed the next. I anticipate seeing a loss of torque down low and a gain up high in the first cenario, and a gain of torque down low and a loss of torque up high in the second cenario. Where the torque curves cross will the the point that I will program the SDS to open them.

Even if the results don't come out as I expect, I still intend to post the results so that others can see their effectiveness.

[boost_boy]

The butteryfly's should be RPM dependant, not load dependant. The problem with hooking them straight up to the manifold is this;At low RPM, full throttle, the manifold goes to nearly atmospheric. This isn't enough vaccuum to keep the butterfly's closed and so they open. At low RPM's, with high load is when you need them closed THE MOST!

My butt-o-meter tells me they make a difference, and it can definatly be seeen/heard when they are opened and shut at idle.

I intend to see exactly HOW much difference they make by dynoing the car with them open one run, and then running them closed the next. I anticipate seen a loss of torque down low and a gain up high in the first cenario, and a gain of torque down low and a loss of torque up high in the second cenario. Where the torque curves cross will the the point that I will program the SDS to open them.

Even if the results don't come out as I expect, I still intend to post the results so that others can see their effectiveness.

Do that Ryan! I am extremely interested to see the outcome and put this to rest once and for all.

Dee