Bush administration found to be at fault for civil rights violations by Senate

[480sx]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28180540/

Short, sweet, and to the point article. Im sure more will come as the report is mulled over and maybe made public.

This is basically what i have been saying all along, for the last year. Helps a lot, now that hes 1 month away from leaving office without ever being impeached. Even though every piece of the puzzle has been available for at least the last two-three years, the Senate has waited till the 11th hour in Bush's presidency to say anything about it, right before they go out for their winter break.

Such bull ****. At least someone acknowledges this, i figured it would be years before this ever happened.

This, from everything i have seen, is just the tip of a very deep and nasty iceburg. I dont think we will even have to wait till Bush dies before 'history' rips him apart. I would give it 10-20 years before it hits the fan.

EDIT - Sometimes i wish i had learned to spell. If someone could fix that for me...
Modified by 480sx at 3:23 PM 12/11/2008

[Armelius]

His mistake was not hiring Black Water to do all the dirty work. Our soldiers made a fool of themselves for doing those despicable things to those poor people.

We have too many kangaroo people ready to dish out their version of justice at the ready. Best to conduct a show trial for the whole world to see than do bad things in secret.

[480sx]

****ting on my thread. Damnit.....

LOOK OUT FOR THE KANGAROO PEOPLE FFS! THEY HAVE OUR GOVERNMENT BY THE BALLS!

I really, really hate you for saying that our soldiers are making fools out of themselves in Iraq. How is it their fault their leaders sent them on this mission? They are doing a simply amazing job in Iraq, in a war that is IMO, unwinnable by the standards of victory set out by the white house. And holy ****, i just read the end of that sentence.

I hope you get banned in the worst kind of way, as fast as humanly possible.

[Armelius]

Since Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with protecting the constitution then yeah, you might be right on what an amazing job they are doing. I can't wait until the buses are up and running. Maybe Obama will make change happen.

Afghanistan. That is where our troops in Europe should be redeployed to. Only because our soldiers should be fighting or keeping the drugs off of our streets. Can't do that being stationed in Amsterdam.

[480sx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxFJfcrcA

[ishkabibble]

Blackwater shouldn't exist. They hire these private security firms and misuse the National Guard in order to get around reinstating the draft.

Armelius, you should go over there to help out.

[Armelius]

If you send some attorneys over there first then I will go with the clean up operation.

[WDRacing]

I'm only gonna say this once,

Don't diss the American Soldiers...ever. Beat up the administration all day, beat up everything about anything...just leave the guys alone that are doing a job that no one else will do.

Have some done ugly things? Yep, but walk in their shoes for 14 months at a time while watching your friends blown to pieces and or have your wife leave you etc etc...

In short...don't diss the soldiers.

WD

[480sx]

If you send some attorneys over there first then I will go with the clean up operation.

Attorneys are far more useful than you.

[Armelius]

Blackwater and others are/were soldiers too.

[HashiriyaS14]

Blackwater shouldn't exist. They hire these private security firms and misuse the National Guard in order to get around reinstating the draft.

I disagree about Blackwater and other PMC's, but I agree that Armelius is a moron.

The United States will never again have a draft unless domestic soil is threatened via the assault of another sovereign nation (i..e not terrorism). Other than that scenario, I cannot imagine the US ever again having the political will to institute a draft.

PMC's fill a need, they're just new and the regulations aren't all sorted out yet, but they're useful as "military temporary employees".

Armelius, I am unfortunately still (I believe) acting mod of this section, and so I'm going to have to tell you not to rip on America's soldiers in my board. It is inflammatory and unneccessary.

If I judge that you're just trying to incite riots in here for the fun of it, you'll be out before you can blink. Cut it out.

[Armelius]

I think I was a moron for joining the military. I bought into that whole GI BIll thing too for college benefits.

You are 100 percent right. And the smartest thing I have done all my life was to get out of the military. So maybe I am not a complete moron but trying to get my GI Bill going to college worked for a while until they counted it as income. After that it was no different than a Pell Grant which I was unable to get because I was getting the GI Bill. Which just so happen to work out to be the same amount only difference was that I paid into the GI Bill.

Maybe that isn't a big issue with any of you but it will always be a big issue with me and it was during the time of the first George Bush and then President Clinton (nothing changed), yet they had the nerve to call me up for the Gulf War.

Sorry if my issues bother you but I thought doing the things I did would make me a better person.

[HashiriyaS14]

I think I was a moron for joining the military. I bought into that whole GI BIll thing too for college benefits.

You are 100 percent right. And the smartest thing I have done all my life was to get out of the military. So maybe I am not a complete moron but trying to get my GI Bill going to college worked for a while until they counted it as income. After that it was no different than a Pell Grant which I was unable to get because I was getting the GI Bill. Which just so happen to work out to be the same amount only difference was that I paid into the GI Bill.

Maybe that isn't a big issue with any of you but it will always be a big issue with me and it was during the time of the first George Bush and then President Clinton (nothing changed), yet they had the nerve to call me up for the Gulf War.

Sorry if my issues bother you but I thought doing the things I did would make me a better person.

I'm not saying that you're a moron for joining the military.

My problem with you is the general way that you conduct yourself in here. So far every thread you're in, you're just fighting with everyone else.

Ultimately, if you cause undue controversy in my forum section, whether you're right or wrong, I'm going to boot you out. It seems that you constantly fight with people from BOTH parties.

Just calm down a little, I guess. All I'm trying to say.

[Armelius]

Alright man. I feel that happens because I don't really care so much about what parties are doing only what the individual is doing.

I do my best to do good or stay out of trouble and so far it looks as if I would be better off fighting some war or keeping people from killing me. I know I am good at that and didn't mind it as much as having to deal with the politics inside the military command structure. But if you are with me no matter who you are you are going to live I don't care what the odds are. If I am alone it would be even better but I never met anyone that didn't want me to be there when the crap really went down.

[OriginalWheelman]

I believe in personal responsibility first and foremost. Therefore, unless the Bush administration was members were PERSONALLY over there abusing inmates, I do not believe them to be responsible. Every person has a will and a sense of right and wrong. If these soldiers did not want to abuse these inmates, they shouldn't have. I support our soldiers, but I do not support the actions of a few who would do things like that.

[480sx]

Your post is basically the same crap that came strait out of the Bush administration, and that has now been labled by a bi-partisen Senate commity to be in their own words "both unconscionable and false". These policies and the legal background for this kind of treatment came strait from the bush administration. GTMO, Abu Ghraib, those are the ones we heard about! If we heard about 2-3, imagine how many cases the media never picked up. You think its a common thing for the media to pick up that kind of story? They have to get super lucky to catch these stories. Imagine all the ones they missed. Those were just the tip of a nasty iceburg.

Seriously cant believe that you cant see any problem with this. Obviously the Senate disagrees with you. By your line of reasoning, GWB could order us to obliterate Iran with nukes. Then, not be responsible because well, he didnt push the button or build the rockets.

The little guy always takes the fall, and in this case its been proven that the little guy was following orders and going on policies handed down directly from the bush administration. While this in no way justify the actions of a few, it does however implicate the Bush administration. They share most of the blame for these actions, and unlike the 'little guys' he gets to walk out of his job a free man, never being even formally accused of any wrong doing.

[Armelius]

It would seem to me that the next President will always pardon the former. Looks similar to Mexican politics.

[OriginalWheelman]

Your post is basically the same crap that came strait out of the Bush administration, and that has now been labled by a bi-partisen Senate commity to be in their own words "both unconscionable and false". These policies and the legal background for this kind of treatment came strait from the bush administration. GTMO, Abu Ghraib, those are the ones we heard about! If we heard about 2-3, imagine how many cases the media never picked up. You think its a common thing for the media to pick up that kind of story? They have to get super lucky to catch these stories. Imagine all the ones they missed. Those were just the tip of a nasty iceburg.

Seriously cant believe that you cant see any problem with this. Obviously the Senate disagrees with you. By your line of reasoning, GWB could order us to obliterate Iran with nukes. Then, not be responsible because well, he didnt push the button or build the rockets.

Lawrence Di Rita, a senior aide to former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld at the time the Abu Ghraib and other abuses took place, disputed the report.

"This oddly timed report provides no evidence that contradicts more than a dozen other investigations that found that there was no systematic or widespread detainee mismanagement," Di Rita told The Associated Press. "A relatively small number of people abused detainees, and they were brought to justice in criminal or civil proceedings."

My post was my thoughts on the matter, not a rehashing of Bush's policies. if Bush ordered us to nuke Iran, then he is responsible. Show me proof that Bush issued an order to abuse prisoners. I'll bet it doesn't exist because if it had, he'd be impeached by now. Furthermore, I'm not the only one who thinks this. Over a dozen inquiries say no, but you tort the one that says yes as absolute.

You think its a common thing for the media to pick up that kind of story?

Yes. I do. Americans love to *****. Only in America would someone voluntarily take a job as a warrior and complain about being sent to war.

[Armelius]

Only in America would someone voluntarily take a job as a warrior and complain about being sent to war.

I would say you are wrong about that. I volunteered for everything and I hated every minute of it but not one person heard a complaint from me though I did tell my supervisor I was getting disenchanted. I heard many people complain to me though and they couldn't believe I was not going to reenlist. I even delayed getting out as long as possible because I didn't want people to think I hated the military.

There is a big difference in doing a job and putting your life on the line. You can always get a new job but you can't always get a new life. When you see people dying around you then you know there is only so much you can take until you can't take it anymore. That goes with everyone.

[OriginalWheelman]

I would say you are wrong about that. I volunteered for everything and I hated every minute of it but not one person heard a complaint from me though I did tell my supervisor I was getting disenchanted. I heard many people complain to me though and they couldn't believe I was not going to reenlist. I even delayed getting out as long as possible because I didn't want people to think I hated the military.

There is a big difference in doing a job and putting your life on the line. You can always get a new job but you can't always get a new life. When you see people dying around you then you know there is only so much you can take until you can't take it anymore. That goes with everyone.

I'm not saying every military person is whining. What I am saying is there are people in this country, and in our military who are very self serving. I'm sure you know a few of these guys, the ones that join the military only for the benefits, then ***** about the dangerous work that makes the job worth the pay rate an benefits. The job is dangerous, the job is hard, that is why you were paid so well for it. These are the guys who write home about all the "injustices" they suffer. The ones who send classified information out to people who should not have it. There are enough of these guys and enough reporters looking to make name for themselves that these stories always get picked up.

[Armelius]

I'm not saying every military person is whining. What I am saying is there are people in this country, and in our military who are very self serving. I'm sure you know a few of these guys, the ones that join the military only for the benefits, then ***** about the dangerous work that makes the job worth the pay rate an benefits. The job is dangerous, the job is hard, that is why you were paid so well for it. These are the guys who write home about all the "injustices" they suffer. The ones who send classified information out to people who should not have it. There are enough of these guys and enough reporters looking to make name for themselves that these stories always get picked up.

I only hope I would see the people I was with again. Just so I can tell them what I was really thinking. Keeping that stuff to yourself isn't good. And telling people that don't know anything about it doesn't help either.

You get out and people say you changed or have become a colder person then what are you supposed to say? I don't know anyone that can answer that question. I am happy I am alive, honorably discharged and can't be called back. But I never think the fight is over.

[480sx]

The ones who send classified information out to people who should not have it. There are enough of these guys and enough reporters looking to make name for themselves that these stories always get picked up.

You really think we would be Abu Ghraib sloppy with every atrocity that has been done in these wars? You think that a soldier who was ordered to commit a crime is going to sell out his country so easily? Sell out his own life? There have been reports that every piece of mail coming home from Iraq from soldiers is processed and read before it reaches the states.

You really think that every story like this gets picked up. Every accusation of rape by US troops, every civilian killed, every insurgent house blown up that turned out to be a trap full of civilians. You really think that the press in Iraq and Afghanistan has much if any freedom just to waltz around US POW or 'Enemy Combatant' camps looking for signs of war crimes?

There are places that NO reporter has ever been and will ever be allowed to go.

Your right about reporters wanting to make names for themselves, and that desire is a powerful force. However you overestimate the sloppiness of the US armed forces, by a lot.

[Armelius]

I am not even sure if there is any real reporters out there any more. Heard they were dying worldwide.

[OriginalWheelman]

Did I at any point say that was a bad thing?

[Armelius]

I think it's bad. Who is watching the watchers?

[480sx]

Did I at any point say that was a bad thing?

No, you didnt. But what you did say is that every story like this gets picked up which isnt even remotely true. I would say that not even a 10th of the stories get picked up.