Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down!

Your premier source for information on the Turbo KA: KA24E-T and KA24DE-T (KA with aftermarket turbo kit)!
fo0manchu
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:55 pm

NEW RESULTS IN!! Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down!

Postby fo0manchu » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:15 pm

While doing research on water injection, there is always discussions about using window washer pump vs. "high pressure" pump such as a shurflo. Many people love the idea of a cheap Junk Yard setup, while some frown upon it and say it can't be done due to the pump not producing enough pressure.

I've done a great deal of research and reading, and found some valuable info around the net. However, I was still curious to see what these pumps are made of. So I put them to the test. I went to the JY and found 3 pumps which I thought would be good contenders. I also tested them against a shurflo which had is internally regulated at 60psi.

The line up:From Left to Right.1. Denso pump out of a mid 90's volvo. This one was chosen because the pump is also used to power the sprayers for the headlights as well. So perhaps more psi?2. VDO pump out of a sabb. These are the more typical units found in many cars.3. Dedicated headlight washer pump out of a older Range Rover. As you can see, this unit is almost twice the size of the regular washer pumps.4. Shurflo pump, regulated 60 psi.

You can guess who the winner is out of these 4. However, some of the results were suprising.

I tested the pumps out when the car was off at ~12v, and at idle it was at ~13.6v.

Here is my test station.

At 12v and 13.6v had about a 4-6 psi difference. I'm guessing even more psi can be achieved at 14.4v. Here are the results tested at 13.6v. These are listed from highest to lowest.

1st place: Shurflo(of course) : ~75psi2nd place: Range Rover pump : ~52psi3rd place: Denso Volvo pump : ~43psi4th place: VDO pump : ~35psi

So some of these pumps do push out a good amount of psi which would definately work for a budget water injection kit running low boost. Perhaps up to 1 bar or a little bit more??

So here is my final review of these JY pumps.Pros: Cheap, $9 regular price or free on 5 finger discount days. Decent PSI for a budget build. Small, so they are easy to mount. What more can I say, cheap water injection = score!

Cons: These pumps are not good at sucking in water like the shurflo's, so a water supply should be constantly fed to it. If using the stock washer fluid reservoir, then you are set. You can also just mount the pump under your reservoir so gravity would just feed it.

Lastly, need a check valve? I found that a check valve off of a s13 brake booster line works great. Haven't tried it on alky, but held well with water. Even against 75psi on the shurflo.

Thats all folks. Try at your own risk and have fun!
Modified by fo0manchu at 7:09 AM 1/17/2010


User avatar
trackslut240
Posts: 312
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:24 am
Car: 1993 Nissan 240SX
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (fo0manchu)

Postby trackslut240 » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:20 am

a research job well done, i think u should throw a copy of this post in neverlifts guide too, gives an idea what to look for.

User avatar
WDRacing
Moderator
Posts: 23874
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
Location: MFFO
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (fo0manchu)

Postby WDRacing » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:42 am

That's good stuff right there. Something to remember is that you can use 2 pumps if you need a second stage or simply more pressure. Since the pumps are not only cheap, they are small and fit anywhere.

If you're using anything other then water though, you'll need to use Marvel Mystery Oil in the resovoir, about 4 to 5 drops per gallon. This will keep the pump lubed up. This will also let you use a cold start injector as a spray nozzle. They are cheap and act as a nozzle and valve assembly all in one.

Great write-up

WD

User avatar
silverkaturbo
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:00 pm
Car: 91 Nissan 240sx

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (WDRacing)

Postby silverkaturbo » Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:30 pm

I like how the topic of this thread is cheap budget ~ $30 sub injection setup and then at the the bottom of my page theres an advertisement banner link to a Devilsown $250 setup. Like, uhh good luck sellin those after people read this haha.

Anyway, I was thinkin about throwin together one of these setups for kicks after I wrap up my HID retrofit project but I was just wondering, how about if I used a fuel pump? You think it would do a good job? Yea they are a little bigger and need to be submerged, but I, and prob most people would be using a tank that has plenty of room to drop one in. Only the bottom really needs to be submerged and since it will only run in short spurts, it heating up shouldnt really be a problem.

Just seems like an easy kind of recycle solution given that most people here that would be interested in running water injection have probably already dropped a walbro in and would have a spare fuel pump layin around. Took some diggin, but I finally found my old one and hooked it up, seems like it will push pretty hard to give a good mist. Is the lack of lubrication the only issue why these pumps wouldn't hold up to other fuels (methanol, alcohol)?

fo0manchu
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:55 pm

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (silverkaturbo)

Postby fo0manchu » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:42 pm

fuel pumps will rust or corrode. Perhaps that marvel mystery oil trick might help?? I'm not sure how the seals in the pump will hold up as well.

User avatar
WDRacing
Moderator
Posts: 23874
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
Location: MFFO
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (fo0manchu)

Postby WDRacing » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:43 am

fo0manchu wrote:fuel pumps will rust or corrode. Perhaps that marvel mystery oil trick might help?? I'm not sure how the seals in the pump will hold up as well.
Not even MM will save a stock in-tank pump once it's submerged in water...lol. You'd be way better using two washer pumps or inline-fuel pump. If you use a pump ment for fuel you'll have to be very cautious with keeping an eye on flow etc. If the internals start to corrode it will simply slow down before it quits. This would obviously be a bad thing. Any loss in pressure will lead to the water spray becoming far less atomized when it leaves the nozzle not to mention you're spraying far less water as a whole.

In short, not worth the risk at all IMHO. Save for 2 months and buy a Shurflo pump that will work for years and flow enough to support 500whp.

I wouldn't even use a single washer pump, dual pump setup or nothing. Then you run into the problem, what if one of the pumps fail. The second won't be enough if you've properly tuned the system. Then again, I'd be using the water injection if a dual nozzle setup. That way I can use 2 smaller nozzles and increase the amount of boost.

For a low boost kit that uses a smaller nozzle, the higher flow washer pump would probably work fine for someone on a tight budget. The water would let you run an easy 10 psi with no timing retard at all. So you'll make quite a bit more power then say 8 psi and a slight retard in your base timing. Probably 40 horse power, which is pretty good considering the $$$ per HP ratio


fo0manchu
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:55 pm

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (WDRacing)

Postby fo0manchu » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:10 am



There are all kind of deals on ebay for shurflo water pumps. I got mine, the one that is pictured above, for $50 shipped to my house. There is also this idea with a coffee machine pump. http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110368/article.htmlI'm thinking about using that for a pre-turbo setup.

Hey WD, I'm running 10psi right now. If I run stock timing, when do suggest I get the pump to switch on? 4psi? I just have a single stage setup as of now.

User avatar
WDRacing
Moderator
Posts: 23874
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
Location: MFFO
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (fo0manchu)

Postby WDRacing » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:46 pm

Well I'd run 7 psi of boost with no timing retard, so have the pump come on at 6 psi. One thing you have to anticipate though, will be the lag time between the switch, the pump and the nozzle actually receiving the water. So maybe 5 psi onset is the best idea. That way by the time you reach 8 psi the water should be leaving the nozzle.

If you have it come on too early it may bog the motor depending on the nozzle size and pump voltage. Are you going to regulate the pump voltage so you can "tune" the water volume?? It's fairly easy, increase the voltage until the car starts to hesitate or bog just a little then back it off. Done.

WD


fo0manchu
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:55 pm

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (WDRacing)

Postby fo0manchu » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:22 pm

yah, I figure there will be lag time. I'm going to test it out at 4psi first to be on the safe side.

It's going to be kind of hard to adjust the voltage, unless I was on a dyno.Are you talking about using a potentiometer to regulate voltage?

That would mean I would have to keep boost constant at whatever boost level I would want it to come on at and then adjust voltage, right? That sounds tricky. Or am I understanding you incorrectly.

User avatar
neverlift
Posts: 3700
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:26 am

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (fo0manchu)

Postby neverlift » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:36 pm

I have been running dual washer pumps for what 5 months, no issues. The mmo stinks when burned. Thats how I test it now

Fuel pump sock is clogged so I have not messed with it much lately. But for 30 bux(cost of hobbs switch) its not to be beat. Never would I buy a kit from a branded company. After seeing the psi results of single random pumps I am even more confident that enough pressure is being supplied.

Hey foo since you already have the station setup do a pressure drop test. I think thats going to be the big hurt for the washer pumps...great work btw

fo0manchu
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:55 pm

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (neverlift)

Postby fo0manchu » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:42 pm

neverlift wrote:
Hey foo since you already have the station setup do a pressure drop test. I think thats going to be the big hurt for the washer pumps...great work btw
I was thinking that same thing! I'll post results once its done.

User avatar
WDRacing
Moderator
Posts: 23874
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
Location: MFFO
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (fo0manchu)

Postby WDRacing » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:58 am

Rheostat control voltage reaching the pump. Have it set to 100%, if it bogs when the water comes on you can reduce the voltage until the onset doesn't bog at all. Makes initial tuning much easier IMHO.

Pressure drop once the spray starts is definitely going to be the tell tale sign when it comes to washer pumps being reliable or not. Make sure you use a realistic nozzle size so we know whats going to happen IRL.

WD

User avatar
neverlift
Posts: 3700
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:26 am

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (WDRacing)

Postby neverlift » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:55 am

csi is perfect for the test as its a solenoid and a misting nozzle in one unit.

pretty sure you can measure the orifice.

further noteavatar sucked my balls, 3 hours wasted. Oh and I still did not see the racial influence, I saw a bunch of white guys that were respectively nerds, doing nerdy s***, with alien bodies

User avatar
WDRacing
Moderator
Posts: 23874
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
Location: MFFO
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (neverlift)

Postby WDRacing » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:55 pm

That's the point dumbass. It shows that white people hate aliens!!!

User avatar
neverlift
Posts: 3700
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:26 am

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (WDRacing)

Postby neverlift » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:24 pm

oh I thought the non white community thought it was a racial film... saw it on tmz or some s*** my wife watches . I dont hate aliens I hate dumb people and stupid f***ing movies... so if they can compact that 3hours into say 1.5(hell I could have cut it to less) I would like them more than the white guy who made the movie. tell greg xmas is over

airman86
Posts: 320
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:55 pm

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (neverlift)

Postby airman86 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:17 am

I haven't really looked into a lot, but I like the idea of water injection - But is there not worry of any corrosive effects on the iron block long term?

I'd be interested to see the pressure drop on the washer pumps as well. It'd be nice to know what to expect

User avatar
WDRacing
Moderator
Posts: 23874
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
Location: MFFO
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (airman86)

Postby WDRacing » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:01 am

Buick ran tests where they injected water for 1000 miles on a dyno, or something like that, when they built the Grand National. No ill side effects noted when they tore down the motor. In fact it was the opposite. Many of the parts were cleaner and in better shape.

But Buick decided against the water injection because they felt people wouldn't want to worry about filling it up.

WD

fo0manchu
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:55 pm

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (fo0manchu)

Postby fo0manchu » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:06 pm

Results are in!!Here's some info on the test station. Nozzle is from Mcmaster, and flows ~6.32 gph. Air is fed from my air compressor and is fed through an air regulator. Pipe has nozzle placed at the opposite side and t'd into the pressure gauge. A hole is also drilled at that side as well help simulate how air would pass through an intake pipe. If you see any flaws, let me know. But i think it pretty accurate. The only variable I would see is the length of the water feed tube from the pump, as my test one is only about 6". However, i don't think 1 or 2' of tubing will make a difference.I only tested the volvo Denso pump with the car off. So at ~12volts. Initial pressure with no air pressure in the test pipe was ~40psi, which is a little higher when tested with no nozzle.Next I turned on the air regulator to 10psi, surprisingly, hardly no pressure drop. The needle bounced back and forth between 40-39 psi. Even at 20psi and 30psi, the results were the same. So pressure drop was not an issue. Why?? here's my theory. Obviously pressure will go the path with less resistance, the nozzle size is pretty small. I think it's small enough so pressure doesn't back up into it. What do you guys think???Here's a bad picture, because you can't really see the air regulator gauge, but it was up between 15-20psi.

User avatar
WDRacing
Moderator
Posts: 23874
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
Location: MFFO
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (fo0manchu)

Postby WDRacing » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:19 am

A 6 gpm nozzle is actually pretty big and will probably bog if it comes on to early. I'd suggest a 3 gpm nozzle for a single stage.

As long as the pump puts out 25-30 more psi then the amount of boost your running, there shouldn't be any flow issues at the nozzle. My biggest concern was pressure drop at the pump when the nozzle was spraying.

You're telling us there is no pressure drop at all when using a 6 gpm nozzle correct? You should pull the nozzle from the "intake pipe" and just leave it in the open so we can see the spray pattern and how well it's atomized.

Also, you don't wanna use a rheostat with a washer pump. I was doing some more thinking about that and I don't think the pump will do well with less voltage. Best to tune it via nozzle size.

WD

fo0manchu
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:55 pm

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (WDRacing)

Postby fo0manchu » Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:37 am

WDRacing wrote:A 6 gpm nozzle is actually pretty big and will probably bog if it comes on to early. I'd suggest a 3 gpm nozzle for a single stage.

As long as the pump puts out 25-30 more psi then the amount of boost your running, there shouldn't be any flow issues at the nozzle. My biggest concern was pressure drop at the pump when the nozzle was spraying.

You're telling us there is no pressure drop at all when using a 6 gpm nozzle correct? You should pull the nozzle from the "intake pipe" and just leave it in the open so we can see the spray pattern and how well it's atomized.

Also, you don't wanna use a rheostat with a washer pump. I was doing some more thinking about that and I don't think the pump will do well with less voltage. Best to tune it via nozzle size.

WD
I did test with a 2gph and 6gph. I had different nozzles. I just used the bigger nozzle so if there was any pressure drop, it would be most noticable with the big one.

If I were to use a rheostat I would most definately use it on the shurflo, and not the washer pumps. I will get vid or pictures of the spray pattern for the 6 gph nozzle.

User avatar
WDRacing
Moderator
Posts: 23874
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
Location: MFFO
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (fo0manchu)

Postby WDRacing » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:00 am

Pure awsomeness man

fo0manchu
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:55 pm

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (WDRacing)

Postby fo0manchu » Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:56 am

Here yah go! A picture of the 6gph nozzle on the Denso Volvo pump. Picture might not be the best, but as you can see, not only did it make a watery mess but the atomization is what can be expected from 40psi pump and this nozzle. It works as it should and supplied enough water volume and pressure to properly atomize fluid.

My only concern is that with a setup where the nozzle is spraying perpendicular with the intake housing, water will pool on the top of the intake pipe and start collecting into larger water droplets(especially with the higher power pumps, like the 100psi shurflo, etc). I'm thinking a more efficient design is to have the nozzle spraying inline with the intake pipe. Parallel to the airflow.

My current setup is with a shurflo 60psi being switched on at 4psi into a 3.16gph(rated at 40psi) nozzle. I'm running 10psi of boost. No bogs, run's strong My next setup will be a 2 nozzle setup coming in at different boost levels and running up to 12psi boost. After that, dyno with a pre-turbo setup vs. non preturbo setup!


User avatar
WDRacing
Moderator
Posts: 23874
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
Location: MFFO
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (fo0manchu)

Postby WDRacing » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:17 pm

I think the 6 gpm nozzle is a tad big for a washer pump. I'd suggest no bigger then 3 gpm unless you're able to come close to 100 psi from the pump.

I'd rather use 2 smaller nozzles at different on-set points anyway. Makes it easier to add just enough water to cool things down without cooling things so much you lose power.

WD

fo0manchu
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:55 pm

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (WDRacing)

Postby fo0manchu » Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:04 pm

WDRacing wrote:
I'd rather use 2 smaller nozzles at different on-set points anyway. Makes it easier to add just enough water to cool things down without cooling things so much you lose power.

WD
I Agree!

Had a thought on pre-turbo injection. Most info I found were complaints about big water drops hitting the compressor blade and pitting it. Even with a high power pump and small nozzle. I think this is due to the fact that the mist is hitting the top of the pipe and pooling. Causing water to drip back down and then being sucked into the compressor.

Almost everyones complaint was that the edges of the blades were getting pitted the most, hence thats why i think the mist is pooling and then the big drops are getting pulled across the pipes and sucked in at the edges of the blade.

Even with a super high pressure pump, like 200psi paired with a super small nozzle. I think that the water will still pool up due to the pressure of the pump. I think pre turbo injection will need the right combination of pressure, nozzle, and how much air the turbo can suck in. More psi doesn't always equal better. Also, combining it with alki or meth to make the fluid less dense will help.

User avatar
neverlift
Posts: 3700
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:26 am

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (fo0manchu)

Postby neverlift » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:37 am

I love you thanks for doing the testing it was much better than the approach I would have taken, and we all know I slack getting pics up.

glad to know I am not crazy, maybe this will catch on and we can take money from 'the man'

User avatar
RustspecS13
Posts: 928
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:30 pm
Car: '74 260z and '88 300zx turbo
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down! (neverlift)

Postby RustspecS13 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:05 am

Wow very good info. I'm seriously considering a w/m injection setup for my rb20. But I'll be running in the 15-25psi range and around 250-350whp.

I may end up running some crazy boost, like 30-40psi later, and I was thinking a boost reference line would work well like that, so the pump isn't overcoming a huge pressure differential.

~Alex

User avatar
nelson8708
Posts: 1008
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:20 pm
Car: 1989 Nissan 240sx Fastback
1994 Acura Integra LS
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down!

Postby nelson8708 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:02 am

sorry to bump this back up but, i plan on putting together a little water injection kit for my s13. I was wondering what your guys thoughts are on using a stock fuel injector for the nozzle? Would the spray be fine enough for proper atomization? I have a few extra stock 270cc ka24e top feed injectors laying around. Its a solenoid and nozzle in one and its free :) .....if no one noticed a harbor freight pump looks a lot like the shurflow.

Image
200gph (just like the shurflow).... i just wish they showed what pressure it can put out.....for 29$ i might have to find out myself

-Nelson

EDIT: just forgot bare steel + water = FAIL....damn, o'well a couple of misting nozzles from the hardware store are cheap.

User avatar
WDRacing
Moderator
Posts: 23874
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:00 am
Car: 95 240SX, 99 BMW 540i, 01 Chevy Express, 14 Ford Escape
Location: MFFO
Contact:

Re: Budget Water Injection: Washer pump show Down!

Postby WDRacing » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:33 pm

Fuel injectors aren't meant to spray water, so you'll need to use a lube like Marvel Mystery Oil in the water to keep the injector from seizing. Also I do not think the spray will be fine enough. Test one out and see.


Return to “KA24ET / KA24DET Forum”