budget suspension questions for S14

[maxima278]

I'm planning on putting an RB25 in my 96 S14 at some point. I'm going to be on a shoestring budget for this project all the way through, however my expectations are high.

My plans for this car are for it to be something I can drive semi-daily and see at least a little occasional drift action.

Basically, is there any reason to go with coil overs as opposed to just stiffer lowering springs? Any advice would be helpful as I have no knowledge of suspensionsthanks

[chmercer]

coilovers offer

professionally matched spring rates to each damperaluminum upper mounts which more effectivley transfer the motion of the car into the suspensionfront camber adjustability in most casesmore agressive spring rateswider range of dampening adjustability in most casesheight adjustabilityindependant preload adjustability in some casesmore wheel clearance (ability to run higher offsets/larger tires)comparativley easy installation

ive had various coilovers on my car for the past 2 years and my car is my daily. If you plan to drift i HIGHLY reccomend a set of coilovers over any kind of shock and spring combo. if the car is only for mountain driving or somthing where potholes, road debris are a large concern the lower spring rates of a cheaper setup might be desireable, but its no fun to drift a car with a heapin helpin of body roll.

[maxima278]

what will coil-overs do for mountain driving?

[hannibal]

Everyone says that if you would enjoy a nice spring/shock combo, coilovers would make you smile like a madman. Point being, if you enjoy cornering, you'll wish you had bought coils instead the cheaper setup.

I'd choose either a cheap (AGX GR2) nonadjustable shock with some stiff springs (RSR Race) or a lower priced coilover (KTS). The price difference between a NICE spring/shock combo and entry level coils makes it hard for me to choose skip on the coils, even if I have to drive on city roads.

chmercer makes some good points about the advantages of coilovers. Drifting = coils (in my mind), and they can be adjusted to suit mountain driving too (or road course, drag, etc).

[BryanGrigsby]

Yeah, I would have to agree that if you want performance, coilovers are a must.

Though, I would have to say that project car and budget dont compliment eachother in the same sentence. Car parts are expensive no matter how you go about it. And it is deffinitly not worth purchasing cheaper parts of less quality and performance. Their are all kinds of nasty consequences associated with that.

[maxima278]

I can agree with that. I haven't found a single mod yet that I would actually put on my car that I can afford! It sucks. Eventually though, my S14 will get there.

[574-240sx]

Coilovers. I have had the AGX/sportline combo and AGX/Tein combo. Coilovers are awsome. I was always disappointed with the body roll I had with the spring/shock setup. If this car isn't daily driven I would opt for coilovers.

[maxima278]

hey man you still have that maxima? I thought you had it sold. Thats a sweet looking hatch in the pic..

[574-240sx]

I sold my maxima for 6500 about 4 months ago. I still wish I would have kept it for a daily driver now that its getting close to fall/winter. The hatch is doing ok maybe some body work with paint this winter.

[maxima278]

yeah, I'm in the middle of doing body work on my S14 to be painted within the next month or so. I'd like to sell my maxima but that would leave me without a car at times too when I'm working on the 240. Hey if you really regret selling your max I got one I'll sell you for $4k!

[C-Kwik]

coilovers offer

professionally matched spring rates to each damper

This is debatable. From what I can tell, they tend to use the same damper in each line then offer whatever spring rates that might be available. And those that don't offer different rates don't necessarily match it well.

aluminum upper mounts which more effectivley transfer the motion of the car into the suspension

Are you referring to spherical bearings(as opposed to ones insulated by rubber)? Being aluminum would not make a difference from an energy transfer perspective.

front camber adjustability in most cases

You can install camber plates on even a stock suspension.

more agressive spring rates

Availability of a variety of spring rates can be better, but keep in mind many coilovers use proprietary or odd sizes that may not be supported well.

wider range of dampening adjustability in most cases

Well, this is debatable as well. Whether part of an adjustable height system or a stand alone shock, many shocks with a wide range of adjustment actually have effectvely half the adjustability of what they say. Basically you have to click 2 settings before a change takes place. Testing has actually confirmed this.

height adjustability

I'd be concerned with cornerweighting. This wouldn't change theheight as much as it would how the weight distributes as the cross wheels with the highest settings will control the height and carry the largest load. Evening this out can tremendously help increase overall handling.

independant preload adjustability in some cases

Preload? As in freeheight? This tends to be handled by tender springs with low ride height settings and become, for the most part, unimportant while driving unless you actually get to a point where you are almost catching air. Tender springs only keep the spring seated when a spring by itself may not under full extension.

more wheel clearance (ability to run higher offsets/larger tires)

How is this? The factory struts position the spring over the front wheels. This puts less distance between the center of the shock and the outer casing of the shock. A ride-height adjustable coil-over tend to put the spring next to the tire. The distance from the center of the shock to the outer edge of the spring is greater, cutting into space you can use for the wheel and tire.

[chmercer]

what???? why are you trying to bust my balls c-kwik? you usually post pretty good stuff but i dunno what you are trying to do with that last post..

numbered responses to each thing you quoted since i dont want to copy and paste

1. unless you get some total crap crackerjack coilovers the dampers are going to be valved reasonably well for the springs. its not like tein goes and grabs a set of AGX off the shelf and throws some random springs on them.

2. yes referring to heim joint upper mounts. the replacment of the stock rubber mounts reduces deflection and such.

3. err, no ****? if you buy coilovers you dont have to buy extra camber plates, which equals more money in wallet.

4. again, what?? are you talking about some 300 dollar chinese coilovers or somthing? no legitimate suspension company will just randomly pull springs off the shelf and stick it on some shocks and call it coilovers.

5. whos testing? what coilovers? so you are saying that 4 way adjustable tanabe DD shocks actually only have 2 settings? zeals only have 3? your extremly broad generalization does little to support your argument.

6. height adjustability refers to lowering and raising the car via moving the shock bracket up and down on the shock. corner weighting the car, IE preloading the car, i mentioned in my next point.

7. preload, as in pre tensioning the spring for corner weighting and such. im not referring to helper springs which as you said can be used in rally type applications to keep the spring seated on the perch when the suspension is unloaded.

8. got me on that last one, i misspoke regarding the higher offset. what i meant to say was larger diameter. with 18" wheels and larger profile tires and such it is very possible that the wheels will be impossible to mount due to hitting on the lower spring perch.

[McRussellPants]

This is debatable. From what I can tell, they tend to use the same damper in each line then offer whatever spring rates that might be available. And those that don't offer different rates don't necessarily match it well.

What coils are you talking about? the only one that comes to mind like this is JIC (I dont know if they do). but any coilover worth its weight will have the damping matched to the chassis. Its Easilly Argueable that a shock spring combo wont be matched as well as a coilover.

Are you referring to spherical bearings(as opposed to ones insulated by rubber)? Being aluminum would not make a difference from an energy transfer perspective.

Um Spericals as Opposed to rubber obviously transfer more movement into the shock instead of the rubber just abosorbing the energy itself

You can install camber plates on even a stock suspension.

Once you do that your getting the cost of a Shock/Spring Combo up to the cost where the advantage coilovers have clearly outweigh the cost.

Availability of a variety of spring rates can be better, but keep in mind many coilovers use proprietary or odd sizes that may not be supported well.

Mercer was arguing the agressiveness of the rate not rates avalible. Coilovers are made to handle stiffer rates which will better controll the Roll Moment of a slammed car.

Well, this is debatable as well. Whether part of an adjustable height system or a stand alone shock, many shocks with a wide range of adjustment actually have effectvely half the adjustability of what they say. Basically you have to click 2 settings before a change takes place. Testing has actually confirmed this.

Yes its been confirmed but what it comes down to is that most Shocks avalible to 240SXs are weakly valved for low springrates / ride comfort. again coilovers worth their weight are have valving based upon the spring rate / weight of the vehicle. Shocks do the same but for a lower spring rate (case in point: AGXs begin to be overpowered with a 5.5+Kg spring)

I'd be concerned with cornerweighting. This wouldn't change theheight as much as it would how the weight distributes as the cross wheels with the highest settings will control the height and carry the largest load. Evening this out can tremendously help increase overall handling.

Coilovers can adjust height independant of preload so you can have the height you want along with the weight on each wheel

Preload? As in freeheight? This tends to be handled by tender springs with low ride height settings and become, for the most part, unimportant while driving unless you actually get to a point where you are almost catching air. Tender springs only keep the spring seated when a spring by itself may not under full extension.

Preload on most coilovers (Tanabe and Tein are the only ones Ive seen with tender springs) is controlled by compressing the spring. Preload can be used to adjust handling but I dont know enough about it to tell how.

You brought up logical points about coilovers but Mercer was arguing on the basis that they were better than Shocks and Spings. Which IMO even on a hard driven daily driver for a 300$ difference coilovers are well worth the added cost.

KTS is the only way to go for an entry level kit.

[Nismo_Freak]

I don't appreciate everyone knocking off my million quote posting style.

In fact, I may even be offended, but I'm too lazy to do anything about it.

[chmercer]

I don't appreciate everyone knocking off my million quote posting style.

I'm sorry sir.

In fact, I may even be offended, but I'm too lazy to do anything about it.

I'm sorry I may have offended you master.

1989 S13 Coupe - SR Powered & More Coming

I wish I could afford an SR.

1992 NX2000 - The Daily Beater

NX2000? damn I wish I could afford a daily that doesn't look like a bass boat.

AIM - NismoFreakS14

Cool aim name, if only I had more imagination beyond my own name for a screen name.

EMail Me

Dude why don't you reply to my emails!? I just wanna know what you are doing this weekend.



Nismo_Freak > Mercer

[Nismo_Freak]

Mercer sent me a pic from his prom.



What a fag.

[crzycav86]

rofl

[chmercer]

rofl, moderatowned

[Exar-Kun]

I side with C-kiwk. s far as a few of his points

"energy transfer" I'm pretty sure he's refering to the inpus being transfered to the damper, not chassis.

Also, most coilover companys do indeed run the same damper system within a given product line for a car. Likewise, if you ask for a higher spring rate (10kg/.mm instead of the 'standard 8kg/mm)..the manufacturer probably won't amtch the dapening range to it (ie keep the middle setting stiffer to compensate..)

I'm a supporter of running a nice spring/shock comba, as most coilvoers overload the tires too severely,,you are only generating .9g of conering force, you dont need to resist this with 500% of your previous spring rate.

R-compounds are another issue, the the tire can generate more cornering force, thuisly stiffer suspension setups are called for to maximixe the cars potential.

-Chet

[C-Kwik]

1. Hearing straight from people who have tested many shock on a shock dyno, few aftermarket shocks are really valved well. They'll get the job done, but they found plenty of compromise.

2. This one was misleading as it seems to imply that the mounts are good simply because they are aluminum with no mention of the type of bearing.

3. I can recall a few that didn't come with upper mounts and required you to use the OEM bearings or buy the camber plates seperately. I've also seen some in the past that use non-camber adjustable plates. I haven't looked at currently available products enough to know if anyone still sells them with non-adjustable pillowball mounts.

4. I was just pointing out that there ARE adjustable spirng systems that have spring diameters that are not popular or have no support. Eibach makes springs that are designed to fit standard size adjustable ride-height systems. But some companies release these kits that have spring sizes not supported by anyone else.

5. This was found in many of the 16-way adjustables that were tested by the same company in #1. Essentially, the 16-ways were actually 8-ways.

6 & 7. Well it sounds like you are simply describing the same thing in 2 different ways now. However, in #6, I was only pointing out that I'd be looking more at corner weight adjustability than height adjustability. As far as #7, you call it a preload. However, this terminology(aside from the fact that I've never heard of it in the manner you describe), is mileading. Preload would say to me that you are talking about the load the spring sees prior to putting any wieght from teh car on it. So essentially it would be what the spring sees from when you put the spring perch on and/or adjust ride height. Once it's on the car, and the car is on the ground, you have static load. And this is what you are adjusting when corner weighting. The load seen from shifts during driving movements is dynamic load. Preload doesn't really fit the description you provide. So I asked if you were talking about helper springs, which would indeed have an effect on "preload".

8. That makes more sense.

[BryanGrigsby]

I don't appreciate everyone knocking off my million quote posting style.

In fact, I may even be offended, but I'm too lazy to do anything about it.

LOL!

This thread went from a good question to being retarded real quick.

[hannibal]

Wow, Ive never heard you guys dog coilovers so bad...

If you opt for stiffer springs with the same damper, wouldnt adjusting the damper to a stiffer setting compensate for the stiffer springs? Why is it necessary for the entire dampening range to be shifted? I thought part of the appeal of coilovers was that they can be tuned (find the best match of damping and spring rate).

Chet, I think I understand what you mean by over loading the tires. I believe max cornering force has to be generated at the tires. But if your suspension is too soft, doesnt the damper absorb the cornering force, not letting the tires see the maximum force? Ive always thought that a stiffer suspension meant greater cornering force. I guess my question is what do you consider overloading the tires 'too severely'? I thought the point of upgrading was to transfer more load to the tires. But what is too much?

One of the things that scares me away from coils for a street car is that they seem to need rebuilding more often. I assume that the stiffer the damper, the sooner it will wear out. Does this apply to a coilover's damper as well as shocks?

Sorry for all the questions. But this thread made me think about this stuff from a new perspective.

[C-Kwik]

It's not about doggin coilovers. The problem is people automatically assume they are a well matched spring and damper. In many cases though, it is not and in a lot of cases, the dampers aren't of the best quality nor does it automatically have a great damping curve.

As far as increasing damping to compensate for stiffer springs, you have to consider that every shock has a resistance curve that it relative to piston speed. Most shocks will have a relatively steep slope at low speeds then above a certain speed, run a more shallow slope at high speeds. When you adjust a shock, different things can be changed depending on how it was designed. Some change only compression, some change only rebound. Some do both but at different rates. Here's the catch. If you have a shock designed to adjust damping for varying spring rates, then you may only end up with a well matched damping rate at a specific setting. Or, if all the damping settings are designed to work well with a particular spring to vary for conditions then using another spring won't work well. And these 2 scenarios alone are already not an easy find. Even a well designed shock is going to have a hard time providing that kind of flexibility. And adjustable shocks are usually better than a typical non-adjustable as it will allow you to find the most optimal setting for that combination. The unfortunate part is most of us have no access to shock dynos or the facilities to actually rebuild a shock to a desired spec. So we do have to accept what is on the shelf. But we should really be aware of these things and try to find out as much as we can so we are making better choices when we make a purchase.

As far as loading a tire, keep in mind the load is a result of grip. If you are turning at a certain lateral G-Force, then the tires are being loaded the same(assuming slip angles and camber angles stay constant). So if you are pulling 1 G on a skid pad with a soft suspension and a hard suspension, the tires are seeing the same loads. And keep in mind that very little damping is actually noticed in cornering manuevers. Roll stiffness is going to come primailry from the spring and anti-roll bars. Damping may affect the onset of roll slightly, but this is still going to be within the slow piston speed ares of a shock dyno. Most shocks don't get much adjustment in this area and tend to be similar from one shock to the next. Not necessarily because they intend it to, but since this a small area from both a damping and speed standpoint, there isn't a whole lot of room for differences even between different manufacturers.

The point of upgrading is only indirectly to put more load on the tires. Stiff suspensions are usually found on race cars for 2 reasons. Response; it tends to be easier to get settled into a corner if the suspension compresses to the max it will see in a particular corner quickly. It provides much feedback quickly so drivers can make adjustements quickly. Secondly, less roll tends to provide the least amount of positive dynamic camber. This is even more important in a car with front struts where there is virtually no camber gain in the suspension under compression. Beeing able to keep the tires flatter to the ground keeps tire temps even across the tread and ultimately you end up with more grip. Also, in cars based on factory suspensions, you may need to try and reduce bumpsteer by reducing bump. Few OEM set-ups have perfectly squared box. Over a small range, this is fine, but too much bump will start compromising control at the limit. A stiffer suspension willl reduce bump travel effectively reducing bumpsteer. Keep in mind though, that lowering a car can actually make this worse initially. Then you start getting into keeping the tires planted as much as possible through damping and spring rates. You want a 50% wedge(cornerweighting...as close to 50% as possible) so that you end up with the best handling(and similar handling traits) in both directions. I'll stop here. I don't want to make this an all out suspension tuning manual. There are plenty of good books for that and I'm not about to summarize the 150+ page book that I have.

As far as wear and tear, this really depends more on the quality. The manufacturing tolerances and materials used would likely have the biggest effect. With a strut suspension up front, I'd also be aware that poor quality here can really be detrimental as struts do see a significant side load. This requires the components to be more robust. But for the most part, as long as you are not bottoming out all the time, the shocks wil probably last a fairly reasonable amount of time. If it is a big concern though, make sure the brand you buy is rebuildable. Perhaps even by someone other than the manufacturer.

[BryanGrigsby]

I love coilover.

[Exar-Kun]

"I don't want to make this an all out suspension tuning manual. There are plenty of good books for that and I'm not about to summarize the 150+ page book that I have."

hehehe...I can't believe how many times I've writen something down and muttered something similar to that to myself and went "delete...delete....delete" until is was surmised adequately...

GOod to have you back and posting man!-Chet

[hannibal]

Thanks C-Kwik. Time for me to hit the books...