Broken Steel!

[MinisterofDOOM]

Hey...Fallout 3 is fun again!!!

I downloaded The Pitt and Broken Steel and am enjoying all the new additions. The raised level cap is unquestionably worth the price of BS. Even without the new quest additions it's still worth it.

The new baddies make things tough. My character's fairly tough. I can mow through raider camps like they're (non-mutated) ants. But those damned albino giant radscorpions. HOLY SCAT! Those things are scary. So. Much. HEALTH! And the Super Mutant Overlords are nasty encounters, too, with their insanely painful tri-beam laser rifles (which are just as effective when turned on their former masters...).

The Pitt's quest was fun to go through but I really didn't like how the game kind of threw major choices at you unexpectedly. There were a couple of times where I was just exploring dialog options with an NPC and suddenly found that I'd made a MAJOR decision without expecting it. I accidentally joined the slavers once (I had intended to kill them all and enjoy it). The game needs to let you know when certain dialog sessions are THAT critical so you can make sure you manipulate them correctly. Worse yet, those unforseen decisionmakers usually have drastic effects that mean the character won't discuss the same things with you anymore so you can't go back and re-explore the rest of the dialog.One such dialog session is initiated by an NPC (so you don't even have time to look around the new room you just entered and get your bearings) and before it's finished you WILL make THE BIG decision for the expansion. But all I wanted to do was tell the woman I was only there to talk and then get my bearings before talking to her again to make my choice.

I haven't done any BS missions yet because I've been too busy leveling again and laying waste to raider camps and exploring the world (which I gave up on after I hit the level cap and finished the main quest).

Oh, also, I discovered the awesomeness of the Operation Anchorage armor glitch. The Winterized T51b armor you get after you complete the simulator is the wrong item entity in game and has TEN MILLION health as opposed to the 1000 it was supposed to have (normal T51b from the vanilla game has 2000). What that means is that the durability drops so slowly that it almost doesn't drop. No more horrible armor repair bills. It would have to take 100,000 damage just to drop 1%. Apparently Bethesda's aware and is intentionally leaving it unfixed because so many people are happy with the error.

[bmike818]

I can't wait for the Game of the Year Edition so I can buy this game again. The level Cap was the one thing that made me sell the game.

nice review......BS, oh you mean Broken Steel

[Chaotic_Warlord]

I might go pick this (Fallout 3) up this week, I've been debating whether I want to get it or not. But after watching some of the gameplay footage it looks like it might be cool.

[snwbrdr435]

I myself wasnt really a fan of the pitt. I got it the first day it came out and it was glitchy as hell. So i waited and when they fixed it i continued. I just killed all the slavers after i got my stuff back. It worked pretty good.

[Hijacker]

I really want DLC for the PS3 version.

[Axel Grungy]

I really want DLC for the PS3 version.

yeah for real, ps3 is really dropping the ball on that. Ever since i reached my level cap, i quit playing.

[paranoidjack]

+1 to Doom in my book.

Q and Fallout 3...

I'm playing BS right now, it's very good and is keeping the game alive for sure. After the Pitt I was all but done.

Fallout is a great series, superior to Oblivion.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Fallout is a great series, superior to Oblivion.

Agreed. It seems kind of ironic that Bethesda's proprietary RPG engine works better in a shooter setting than it does in it's purpose-built fantasy RPG setting. Combat of all types in Oblivion is clumsy. The rest of the game makes up for it most of the time, but the clumsiness is always there. None of that is present in Fallout 3, though. I'm glad, though. Much as I enjoy the Elder Scrolls games, the Fallout universe is so much more interesting and entertaining.I guess it really just goes to show the versatility of the engine.

Supposedly there's a new Fallout game coming out next year from Obsidian, which is staffed by several former Black Isle (original Fallout developer) employees. It sounds like it'll use the F3 engine still. Should be really good. Then Fallout 4 will follow it, developed by Bethesda, once they're done with TES5.

[snwbrdr435]

I cant wait for the next elder scrolls installment, I liked them as much as i like fallout. Will always be my favorite games. One thing i dont like about fallout is the stupid level cap.

Any one here have the nuclear blast perk, when your health goes under a certain amount you explode?

[MinisterofDOOM]

Raised level cap needs to be raised. I'm halfway through 29 and still have tons of stuff left to do. Needs to cap at 40, not 30.

[snwbrdr435]

^needs to be at 50

[paranoidjack]

Honestly, why have a cap at all?

By the time you hit 30, there is nothing to can't kill with ease. I took on 4 albino radscorpions and it was a joke.

In this game, there's no difference between level 25 and 30. I found it equally ease then as I do now to kill most enemies.

I chose the explorer perk. I have visited EVERYTHING, bored with it, and if I could ONLY hear that "cha ching" sound after each kill I'd be more inclined to play, although I have no need for the XP.

That's what makes me not want to play. I could play for 2 hours, and have only 18 more assault rifles, and wake up in a different location. I've been playing RPG's since I was 4, and the only thing that keeps us going is CHA CHING

[MinisterofDOOM]

Remember that even if you've finished "everything" there is to do in the game, you really haven't. If you played through as a "good" character, start a new evil character. Or just go through and do things differently this time around. There are so many decisions in the game that you could play through it a few times and still find lots of new things you didn't experience before.

Levels 20-29 felt very much the same for me. 30 was a HUGE change, though, since I strategically levelled with the end-game perk "Almost Perfect" in mind. My SPECIAL stats went from 6s and 7s and a couple of 9s with armor bonuses to ALL 10s. And since SPECIAL stats affect various skill rankings, my skills syrocketed with them, from a few at 100 to ALL BUT FIVE at 100. And of those 5, only two are below 75. That's a massive difference from where I was at 29. With Almost Perfect plus my planning ahead and waiting to collect the SPECIAL bobbleheads (which stack with Almost Perfect but not vice versa, so you have to get them last) I was able to hugely improve my character in just that one level.

As for the level cap, I'd bet a good sum of money that the reasons are almost all technical.

For levels above 30 (or, really, 20 for that matter) to really work correctly, the skill caps need to be raised, too. In fallout 2, skills could be raised as high as 300, but above 200 started getting very expensive (required several skill points to raise the skill one level). I'm actually surprised Bethesda didn't raise the skill caps 10 or 15 levels for Broken Steel. But then that introduces it's own new problems, like task difficulty scaling (do you introduce a new difficulty level above "very hard" or merely reward players who put points beyond 100 into a skill by improving their chances of success?). Lots of back-end balancing issues come up, and considering that bethesda merely raised the level cap and introduced a couple new baddies (which is largely the reason that level 25 feels the same as 30 as you noted) I think they were trying to take the easy way out of that one.

Another technical issue you run into specifically when dealing with Bethesda's TES/Fallout engine is levelled lists. Levelled lists determine what types of what objects of what level spawn for the player depending on the player's level. EVERYTHING in the game has a levelled list. Monsters, items, etc. The radscorpion levelled list is what causes Albino Radscorpions to appear after level 20. It controls what items are found in containers, which versions of monsters spawn, what equipment they have, etc. Fallout 3's levelled lists are more scalable than the old Oblivion version which improves the random feel of things and makes it so the difficulty curve isn't so flat and every fight isn't exactly the same.The benefit of levelled lists is that the player can take things at their own pace instead of moving on to "the level 10 area" and then "the level 15 area" and so on. The game world feels like it progresses more organically and naturally and it makes the player feel more like they're IN the world rather than just watching things happen from afar. But since EVERY object/creature/npc/etc. in the game has a levelled list, that means when the level cap is raised, the levelled lists must be redefined or added onto to match. And, beyond that (preferably) new entities are added to the "tops" of those lists for players that reach the new levels. Bethesda added the Albino Radscorpion and the Super Mutant Overlord, but those are really just variants of existing monsters. New monsters would have to be added to go up to 40 or 50 or beyond. And they'd have to have scaled variants for new level brackets ever 5 levels or so to retain the same balance the game currently demonstrates.Then of course you need new weapons and armor to scale with everything else. How long does the Enclave Hellfire Armor's 50DR remain relevant when monsters start having 5000 health and doing 600 damage? But if you want to remain accurate to the storyline, we really shouldn't have access to anything better than that. The Enclave MKII power armor is about as good as it gets, and the Hellfire Armor is the latest iteration of that armor lineage. It's the best they've been able to do, and they're the ones on the cutting edge of power armor tech. The MKII is relatively new tech, too, and considering how long it's taken the Enclave to even get that far, it wouldn't make sense for them to have anything better so quickly.

Honestly, I think a huge part of the problem was Bethesda's shortsightedness with the original ending. I love the game and have a lot of respect for Bethesda, but that shortsightedness put a kind of damper on the game's scalability. They had the meanest nasties coming at the player at level 20. Now we've already got Death Claws, which are long-established as the nastiest nasties in the whole Fallout universe. Where do you go from there? Merely cranking up the health and damage of the same enemies for 20 more levels wouldn't be very interesting for the player. So they've really restricted their room to move as far as advancing the player after that original ending point. Bethesda had not originally planned on continuing the story after the original ending. They changed their minds after so much negative feedback was received. If they'd planned on doing Broken Steel from the outset, they could have held off on Death Claws etc. until level 30 or so. Maybe have baby deathclaws before that. Of course there could always be Death Claw Matriarchs for the higher levels, but that takes us right back around to the whole "new stats on old monsters isn't interesting" problem.

[paranoidjack]

Remember that even if you've finished "everything" there is to do in the game, you really haven't. If you played through as a "good" character, start a new evil character. Or just go through and do things differently this time around. There are so many decisions in the game that you could play through it a few times and still find lots of new things you didn't experience before.

Levels 20-29 felt very much the same for me. 30 was a HUGE change, though, since I strategically levelled with the end-game perk "Almost Perfect" in mind. My SPECIAL stats went from 6s and 7s and a couple of 9s with armor bonuses to ALL 10s. And since SPECIAL stats affect various skill rankings, my skills syrocketed with them, from a few at 100 to ALL BUT FIVE at 100. And of those 5, only two are below 75. That's a massive difference from where I was at 29. With Almost Perfect plus my planning ahead and waiting to collect the SPECIAL bobbleheads (which stack with Almost Perfect but not vice versa, so you have to get them last) I was able to hugely improve my character in just that one level.

As for the level cap, I'd bet a good sum of money that the reasons are almost all technical.

For levels above 30 (or, really, 20 for that matter) to really work correctly, the skill caps need to be raised, too. In fallout 2, skills could be raised as high as 300, but above 200 started getting very expensive (required several skill points to raise the skill one level). I'm actually surprised Bethesda didn't raise the skill caps 10 or 15 levels for Broken Steel. But then that introduces it's own new problems, like task difficulty scaling (do you introduce a new difficulty level above "very hard" or merely reward players who put points beyond 100 into a skill by improving their chances of success?). Lots of back-end balancing issues come up, and considering that bethesda merely raised the level cap and introduced a couple new baddies (which is largely the reason that level 25 feels the same as 30 as you noted) I think they were trying to take the easy way out of that one.

Another technical issue you run into specifically when dealing with Bethesda's TES/Fallout engine is levelled lists. Levelled lists determine what types of what objects of what level spawn for the player depending on the player's level. EVERYTHING in the game has a levelled list. Monsters, items, etc. The radscorpion levelled list is what causes Albino Radscorpions to appear after level 20. It controls what items are found in containers, which versions of monsters spawn, what equipment they have, etc. Fallout 3's levelled lists are more scalable than the old Oblivion version which improves the random feel of things and makes it so the difficulty curve isn't so flat and every fight isn't exactly the same.The benefit of levelled lists is that the player can take things at their own pace instead of moving on to "the level 10 area" and then "the level 15 area" and so on. The game world feels like it progresses more organically and naturally and it makes the player feel more like they're IN the world rather than just watching things happen from afar. But since EVERY object/creature/npc/etc. in the game has a levelled list, that means when the level cap is raised, the levelled lists must be redefined or added onto to match. And, beyond that (preferably) new entities are added to the "tops" of those lists for players that reach the new levels. Bethesda added the Albino Radscorpion and the Super Mutant Overlord, but those are really just variants of existing monsters. New monsters would have to be added to go up to 40 or 50 or beyond. And they'd have to have scaled variants for new level brackets ever 5 levels or so to retain the same balance the game currently demonstrates.Then of course you need new weapons and armor to scale with everything else. How long does the Enclave Hellfire Armor's 50DR remain relevant when monsters start having 5000 health and doing 600 damage? But if you want to remain accurate to the storyline, we really shouldn't have access to anything better than that. The Enclave MKII power armor is about as good as it gets, and the Hellfire Armor is the latest iteration of that armor lineage. It's the best they've been able to do, and they're the ones on the cutting edge of power armor tech. The MKII is relatively new tech, too, and considering how long it's taken the Enclave to even get that far, it wouldn't make sense for them to have anything better so quickly.

Honestly, I think a huge part of the problem was Bethesda's shortsightedness with the original ending. I love the game and have a lot of respect for Bethesda, but that shortsightedness put a kind of damper on the game's scalability. They had the meanest nasties coming at the player at level 20. Now we've already got Death Claws, which are long-established as the nastiest nasties in the whole Fallout universe. Where do you go from there? Merely cranking up the health and damage of the same enemies for 20 more levels wouldn't be very interesting for the player. So they've really restricted their room to move as far as advancing the player after that original ending point. Bethesda had not originally planned on continuing the story after the original ending. They changed their minds after so much negative feedback was received. If they'd planned on doing Broken Steel from the outset, they could have held off on Death Claws etc. until level 30 or so. Maybe have baby deathclaws before that. Of course there could always be Death Claw Matriarchs for the higher levels, but that takes us right back around to the whole "new stats on old monsters isn't interesting" problem.

Whoa! I agree with most of what you said.

I'd like to point out again, the largest thing I'm missing is the mere presence of an accumulating figure (XP). I simply don't like that it stops at level 30 - I'd be happy if I never leveled up again, but just continued to gain tattoo teardrops.

In regard to your other point about monsters being capped, there are many ways to increase difficulty without losing game reality. One is to increase the quantity of creatures along with the "level lists."

I'll also respectfully disagree with you regarding the "new stats for old monsters is boring" statement. The nearly 30 year old method of rebadging monster names and raising stats can be done very tastefully. Lessons from Dragon Warrior (metal babbles/slimes!), Final Fantasy, Super Mario Brothers, the list goes forever.

Speed increase, introduction of HEADSHOT player kills, increasing damage, introduce monsters that use sophisticated AI in attack (always fight in pairs, 180 degree straight flank) - there are many ways to do it well.

New guns and enemies aren't hard to create either - hell, they could probably SELL enemy and weapon patches on Bethesda.com for $1 apiece. Want a new enemy that stands 50 feet tall and requires a level 40 to buy and beat? $2.

This game could go much farther, and gather a larger following, with investments that will prove true in the long run. I don't think they'll see it.

Haven't played in a week because I can't hear the "cha-ching"

(oh, and already got all books and bobbleheads)

There are many ways since the dawn of games, to modify the creatures in a "tasteful" manner.

I should add I'm a government contractor for a software development firm, so I'm a bit inclined to criticize software - the game is great.


Modified by paranoidjack at 10:56 PM 5/21/2009

[bmike818]

I should add I'm a government contractor for a software development firm, so I'm a bit inclined to criticize software - the game is great.

...my video game background trumps yours....I rather have consumer level opinions rather than professional ones anyway of the week.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Fallout 3 could definitely use some more interesting enemy AI. The enemies are pretty much dumb as stumps right now. Even Death Claws which are supposed to be near human intelligence and supreme hunters just rush at you. If you fight them in groups they rush at you and trip over each other. Smarter teamwork for enemies would be awesome. So would more intelligent (or perhaps more individualized per enemy depending on their stats/karma/disposition/etc.) target prioritization.

For instance, currently, if a Vertibird drops off a group of Enclave soldiers near some Albino Radscorpions, they'll fight each other. The radscorpion will kill the Enclave (so much health!) and I'll finish it off. But what if the Enclave split up? Some on me, some on the radscorpion? They'd die just as fast, but MY fight would be a lot more difficult as I'd be fighting 2 or 3 enemies the whole battle instead of a half-dead one at the end. Or they could switch targets and keep us BOTH on our toes. The radscorpion, too...he can sting me then go back to the Enclave. That's how I fight them...pick my targets, circle the perimeter, make my shots count and watch for them to expose themselves in the fight. Having those tactics used against me would add a lot of challenge over the universal and individual run-at-me-and-shoot.

Of course this all assumes I don't shoot the Vertibird down the instant I hear it and then continue on about my business.

[paranoidjack]

...my video game background trumps yours....I rather have consumer level opinions rather than professional ones anyway of the week.

Oh - come on man! I started with Mario Brothers in 1985! 24 years and counting. I just get paid to do it during the week as well!

[sil80_chris]

fallout 3 killed my 360... ...supposedly it can stress your xbox to work harder and now i have one red ring...damn the drug known as fallout 3!!

[MinisterofDOOM]

That's why I play the PC version.

[Chaotic_Warlord]

Oh - come on man! I started with Mario Brothers in 1985! 24 years and counting. I just get paid to do it during the week as well!

Hrm, I've been playing video games since the Atari 1600 days. Stepdad had a commodore 64 and I used to play games on it all the time. Nothing like the old text based RPG's. Damn now I've gone and dated myself.

[MinisterofDOOM]

ZORK! ZORK!