Brian Crower Stg.2 264/264 cam question

[Cbus240]

Hey guys, this is going to be a little bit of a long one, but I need your help/input so hear me out!

I'm in the process of sourcing parts for my s13 SR20 rebuild. To make things short, when I have the head off of the motor I plan on upgrading to BC titanium retainers/valve springs along with BC stage 2 264 street/strip cams. It is my full understanding that these cams are "plug and play" and can be dropped right w/o any kind of tuning or even upgrading the valvetrain. I was all gun-ho on getting these cams until I found this thread on another forum, which basically states that these cams are notorious for bad quality control, and that in order to get them to work properly you need to run adjustable cam gears and degree the cams in order to get things to run properly. Using a degree wheel and messing with adv./ret. the timing with cam gears is just outta my league, so now I'm not sure if I should pick them up or not! well, here is said thread:

http://zilvia.net/f/tech-talk/220113-sr ... lower.html

Now, before I found this thread and I was set on getting the cams, I emailed BC's tech line to verify that the cams were truely "plug and play" and required no tuning or advancement/retarding of the timing to get them to work. Here is what I said in the email:

BC,

Hey guys, I have a quick question regarding your Stage 2 Street/Strip spec cams for the s13 SR20DET, and I am sorry if I seem ignorant when asking this question as this is the first cylinder head that I have rebuilt myself, and I am new to tuning. I am in the process of going through my SR20 (ie, new gaskets/seals) and the only "bolt-on" parts I will upgrading to are a s15 Spec-R t28 turbo and a Tomei exhaust manifold/turbo elbow. There will be no upgrades on the bottom end, but while I have the head off of the motor, (aside from getting it decked/ cold tanked and new valve guides/seals) I plan on upgrading the valve train using BC Titanium Retainers/Valve Springs. As stated, I really would like to upgrade to your Stage 2 264/264 cams, which state that they are "plug and play." So here is my question:

...being that I am running a factory ECU (not chipped or anything of the sort), stock SR20 MAF and injectors, along with NO kind of aftermarket air/fuel managment system, are these cams still "plug and play" or do I have to buy some sort of air/fuel mgmt. system and get my car tuned after installation? Also, IF you can drop these cams right in without any kind of tuning, do you think the 264/264 combo will beneficial to the SR20's powerband with the upgraded t28?

ANY help or feedback you guys can give me on this would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!


AND after that novel of a question, this is the response I got directly from their tech

You pick up 30 hp by just dropping them in. Tuning is not mandatory but will enhance the performance.

SO, now that I have laid my story out, what do you guys think on the matter? Ultimately I would like to know if any of you guys have or are using these cams, and IF SO, did you run them without using adj. cam gears and messing with your timing?? ANY help is much appreciated, please enlighten me!

[ray666]

i got a s15 turbo and the 264's with, jwt adjustable gears adv 2.5 and a neo for tuning. i think its worth getting some sort of tuning done. the set up is a lot of fun. looks like you're just starting out. before to long you're gonna want to go bigger, everyone does

[rc1honda]

Yes the BC cams will need to be degreed to run optimal. But after that they run very well from what I understand. I just went with HKS 264 stage 2 cams. They are plug and play and my car runs great. I am a little worried about your fuel and turbo situation though.

You will be pushing more air from the spec r turbo and the cams will move your power band highet in the rev range. They will also allow more air into the cumbustion chamber. With a stock s13 sr setup i would think you will be running lean in the top of the rev range. Probably from 5k rpms onward.

You are already throwing a good amount of money at you setup. I would at least get 550cc i would say injectors, a z32 maf and a ROM tune and run at 14psi. This would be a fun and reliable setup and you could source all these parts for about 1500 more. I mean you are rebuilding the motor and getting headwork done. With a few more parts you will have a nice setup.

You should be aiming for a safe power goal. Stock injectors and maf are going to strangle your setup to the point where stock cams would of been a more fun setup as you would of kept the power range lower in the rev range.

[Cbus240]

i got a s15 turbo and the 264's with, jwt adjustable gears adv 2.5 and a neo for tuning. i think its worth getting some sort of tuning done. the set up is a lot of fun. looks like you're just starting out. before to long you're gonna want to go bigger, everyone does

ok good to know, thanks for the tech info! haha annnnd yeah I hear you, I haven't gotten bit by the bug yet, but I've got a sinking feeling I will want to go bigger shortly after getting things back together!

Yes the BC cams will need to be degreed to run optimal. But after that they run very well from what I understand. I just went with HKS 264 stage 2 cams. They are plug and play and my car runs great. I am a little worried about your fuel and turbo situation though.

You will be pushing more air from the spec r turbo and the cams will move your power band highet in the rev range. They will also allow more air into the cumbustion chamber. With a stock s13 sr setup i would think you will be running lean in the top of the rev range. Probably from 5k rpms onward.

You are already throwing a good amount of money at you setup. I would at least get 550cc i would say injectors, a z32 maf and a ROM tune and run at 14psi. This would be a fun and reliable setup and you could source all these parts for about 1500 more. I mean you are rebuilding the motor and getting headwork done. With a few more parts you will have a nice setup.

You should be aiming for a safe power goal. Stock injectors and maf are going to strangle your setup to the point where stock cams would of been a more fun setup as you would of kept the power range lower in the rev range.

Woooow, absolutely great response man, exactly what I was looking for, thanks for all the good info ...after reading what you wrote and doing some research, I think I am reworking my plan a little...I think I am just going to rebuild the SR as planned and go ahead and upgrade the valvetrain for peace of mind with BC parts, but stay aways from cams for right now. Like you said, without the proper supporting mods, the cams won't be as optimum (or as fun) as with just sticking with the stock cams. I already have bought a new t28 Spec R along with a Tomei manifold, so I will go ahead and slap those on. I realize the Tomei manifold is not necessary for my setup right now(aside from quicker spool up) but I think it will be needed later on as I upgrade to make more power and help things flow. For now I will just rock the t28 on stock boost for this coming season, and then next winter go through and do all the supporting mods to make good HP with that setup (Z32 MAF, injectors, cams, tune, etc.). I know you're probably thinking, "well why not do all those things now?" and it's mainly because I just don't have funds to do the above upgrades properly along with a nice tuning setup such as a Power FC, so I think it is just best rebuild the SR and get it back to good OE health and perfect running order, THEN next year build on top of that with a potent combination of the mentioned parts and see how she goes

[codyace]

Sell the BC's

Get JWT S3 cams. They are true 'drop in as OEM' and go cams. They'll make 15-20 more whp than the BC's and be cheaper in the long run (no need for cam gears, no need for springs).

But to each their own. There's a reason the JWT cams always make more average power, more peak, and more torque...it's because they are actually designed/researched/tested...unlike the chinese copycats...such as BC.

EDIT: Tomei manifold will hurt power everywhere for your turbo, OEM would have been best. Sell it while you can. Sure stock doesn't have the bling factor, but who cares.

Edit: If you're modding on a budget, Fuel/TUning come first, then power. Also it would not be a bad idea to get a second 'beater' car...god only knows how many peole have modded their 'turbo car', not had it work, and not made it to work/school the next day.

[Cbus240]

Sell the BC's

Get JWT S3 cams. They are true 'drop in as OEM' and go cams. They'll make 15-20 more whp than the BC's and be cheaper in the long run (no need for cam gears, no need for springs).

But to each their own. There's a reason the JWT cams always make more average power, more peak, and more torque...it's because they are actually designed/researched/tested...unlike the chinese copycats...such as BC.

EDIT: Tomei manifold will hurt power everywhere for your turbo, OEM would have been best. Sell it while you can. Sure stock doesn't have the bling factor, but who cares.

Edit: If you're modding on a budget, Fuel/TUning come first, then power. Also it would not be a bad idea to get a second 'beater' car...god only knows how many peole have modded their 'turbo car', not had it work, and not made it to work/school the next day.

Thanks codyace! I def like your input, but it should be known that

A. I never bought the cams, havent even torn down the motor yet, just was looking for info
B. My 240 is my weekend driver/hobby, I have a 01' Ranger as a DD and a company van for work...I would NEVER have a SR swapped 240 and expect it to be a reliable DD, (even though many people do) it's just not practical, especially in Ohio.

The more I read, the more I start to wonder about the quality of BC cams...I have obviously heard of JWT but honestly never looked into their products or R&D. I will def check into them now knowing that! I also thought BC parts were made here in the states?! Oh well...I would however, like you to elaborate more on how the Tomei will hurt the powerband "across the board" for the turbo and have absolutely NO benefit. I realize that I could have honed the stock manifold and also had the outlet ported to match the exhaust inlet side of the turbo, but the quote I got to have that done was almost the cost of the Tomei when I got it on sale. And the way I look at it, later on when I DO supporting mods and possibly go to a larger turbo, the gains/performance of the Tomei will surpass that of the extruded stock manifold. I've included this vid I found some kid put up of how quick his t28 spools up with the Tomei:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GoOOG1B-6o

^ not like that is some kind of great vid or anything, but it does show it in action, and it certainly goes into boost way quicker than my t25 and stock mani.

Also, I def hear you when you say fuel/tune first!!! It's not really a budget issue, I could drop the coin now and just be done with it, but I'd rather just slowly put some funds aside over time and then do everything. The only reason I went with the s15 t28R is because I got a great deal on it, it's brand new from Nissan, and my stock t25 is on it's way out and I didn't want to rebuild it. I know I'm upgrading to the Tomei manifold (which may seem pointless to people) but I figure that the t28 on a wastegated 7lbs of boost will not be any more different than the t25 to really cause issues with the stock ECU, and isnt out of the limits of the stock s13 SR injectors or MAF...am I wrong?? please let me know!