Breaking in freshly built motor

[virus77]

So do you take it easy or beat on her to break it in the right way. I have arias pistons so if Ivan can chime in on how he breaks in his motors that would be helpful. Anyone else have frist hand experiances that could help, im sure there are a few people that would be interested in the info as well. Dont want to ruin my motor build due to improper break-in.

[fiznat]

This is something that I am dealing with now also. Basically the rundown from my own research is that everyone will not only tell you different (and opposite) things, but most people will say that the OTHER way will break your motor and drastically reduce your power output. ...So yeah, its a pretty tough decision on what to do.

The hard break in theory says that you want to load the engine up so that the rings expand under that load and wear properly against the crosshatching in the cyl bore. Proponents of this theory say that if you dont load the engine up and expand the rings right away, you will wear down the crosshatching to the point where it is no longer as effective in conditioning your rings and you will never get properly seated rings.

The easy break in procedure is just the opposite. Usually people will give a timetable of how high to rev the engine, how much load to put on the engine over a certain amount of miles etc etc. Basically the idea is that you want to slowly break the engine in instead of subjecting it to a violent and potentially damaging first few miles.

One thing that both camps tend to agree on is that you never want to "lug" the motor around during the first hundred miles or so. What I mean is dont try to cruise up a hill in 5th gear at 1000 rpm, that kinda stuff. Everyone seems to agree that this type of thing is especially bad for a new motor. Also both camps agree that in breaking in a motor, you should give the motor a chance to run at various RPMs and loads. Highway cruising is not a good breakin technique, you need to be all over the place so the engine sees more varying conditions.

I myself plan on splitting the difference somewhat. Once I get my engine started I will run it through some heat cycles, change the oil a few times in between, and then take it out for some light cruising around town with maybe a few short slow bursts of load + rpm. I'll put maybe 30-50 miles on it before I drive it 25 miles to the dyno/tuning shop... There they said they will put it on the dyno and run it for about a half hour at various RPM and load points, sorta a dyno break in. After that I will tune it under load up to probably about 1 bar. I will be back after a couple thousand miles to re-tune it for 20 psi +.

[koukiKA240]

Ive heard your theory more often, when i broke in my motor i would be take it consistant and easy for 30 and then vary the rpms and kinda let it built a little boost (5psi max). I would vary the conditions for the first 800 miles, then oil change and then you can begin to be a little less carfull with everything. Supposedly by 1000 shes ready for whever you can throw at her but i would still take it kinda easy.~Sam

[nismo1003]

I did some reseach and I found this

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

the purpose of breaking in is to let the ring seat properly and the bearing seat in place. the website above try to tell us how to break in the piston ring , but what about the bearing? revving hard would helps breaking in the bearing? as a result, I emailed ROSS and Wiseco ( My piston is from Wiseco ) to see what they would they say. I hope i can get the email back as soon as possible. then I will post it on here and share with you

[nismo1003]

I suggest you should called arias to see what they say about the piston rings. then we can compare.

if we have to take it hard to break in the motor ?should we run it hard( WOT , w/boost)?
Modified by nismo1003 at 9:47 PM 2/10/2005

[nissanfanatic]

http://www.stealth316.com/1-tech.htm

This place has some info on break-in.

[virus77]

This is something that I am dealing with now also. Basically the rundown from my own research is that everyone will not only tell you different (and opposite) things, but most people will say that the OTHER way will break your motor and drastically reduce your power output. ...So yeah, its a pretty tough decision on what to do.

The hard break in theory says that you want to load the engine up so that the rings expand under that load and wear properly against the crosshatching in the cyl bore. Proponents of this theory say that if you dont load the engine up and expand the rings right away, you will wear down the crosshatching to the point where it is no longer as effective in conditioning your rings and you will never get properly seated rings.

The easy break in procedure is just the opposite. Usually people will give a timetable of how high to rev the engine, how much load to put on the engine over a certain amount of miles etc etc. Basically the idea is that you want to slowly break the engine in instead of subjecting it to a violent and potentially damaging first few miles.

One thing that both camps tend to agree on is that you never want to "lug" the motor around during the first hundred miles or so. What I mean is dont try to cruise up a hill in 5th gear at 1000 rpm, that kinda stuff. Everyone seems to agree that this type of thing is especially bad for a new motor. Also both camps agree that in breaking in a motor, you should give the motor a chance to run at various RPMs and loads. Highway cruising is not a good breakin technique, you need to be all over the place so the engine sees more varying conditions.

I myself plan on splitting the difference somewhat. Once I get my engine started I will run it through some heat cycles, change the oil a few times in between, and then take it out for some light cruising around town with maybe a few short slow bursts of load + rpm. I'll put maybe 30-50 miles on it before I drive it 25 miles to the dyno/tuning shop... There they said they will put it on the dyno and run it for about a half hour at various RPM and load points, sorta a dyno break in. After that I will tune it under load up to probably about 1 bar. I will be back after a couple thousand miles to re-tune it for 20 psi +.

Thats exactly my thoughts on this subject at this time as well, but its your frist paragraph that scares me the most . Since Ivan runs built motors often I was hoping he or someone like him that works on freshly built motors can enlighten us with some experiance.

[virus77]

yeah the above links are pretty helpful. This was a good section.

We asked four top motorcycle engine builders what they do to ensure peak power output and optimum engine life. Here is a capsulation of their responses. "If the wrong type of oil is used initially, or the break-in is too easy, rings and cylinders could (read will) glaze and never seal properly. A fresh cylinder wall needs some medium to high engine loading to get the piston rings to seat properly for good compression but make sure you don't lug or overheat the engine. Use high quality, low viscosity oil (Valvoline 30 weight), no synthetics, too slippery. If synthetics are used during initial break in the rings are sure to glaze over.

An engine's initial run should be used to bring oil and coolant (air, oil, and/or water) up to operating temperature only, with little or no load, then shut down and allowed to cool to ambient temperature. This is important. After each run the engine needs to completely cool down to ambient temperature. In Texas, especially in the summer, that's still pretty hot. After a cool down period, start it up again and take the motorcycle for it's fist ride (you hope).

This time give the engine light loads at relatively low rpm and stay out of top gear. Lugging the engine, i.e., low RPM with a lot of throttle (manifold pressure), is more detrimental than high rpm. Another key is too constantly vary engine load during the entire break-in period. A constant load is not ideal for breaking in bearing tolerances. This second run should last only 10-15 minutes before another complete cool down.

The third run should see slightly higher rpm with light to medium power loading using short bursts of acceleration to help seat the rings. Again 10-15 minutes of running should do it and again avoid top gear. A forth run should consist of light to medium engine loads with a few more bursts of medium-high rpm, and lasting just 10-15 minutes varying the engine load and again avoiding top gear. Next while the engine is still warm drain the oil and change the filter. This gets out the new metal particles that are being worn away. Most of the metal particles will break away within the first 50 -75 miles. To ensure the rings seat well, use the same high quality oil and don't be shy about short duration high rpm blasts through the lower gears after the oil has been changed.

A few more 15-20 minute sessions should be used to work up to the engine's redline gradually increasing the engine loads. After some definite hard running and 250-500 miles it's a good idea to check the valves. After 500 miles re-torqueing the head is suggested. Switch to synthetic oil but not before 500-1500 miles. Most of the engine experts warned of the danger of breaking in the engine too easily and ending up with an engine that will always run slow whether it is from tight tolerances, inadequate ring seal or carbo n buildup. Engine load is more detrimental than rpm because of the head created internally, so avoid lugging the engine but rev it freely especially in the lower gears. Basically, be sure not to get it too hot but be sure to seat the rings properly.

Granted its for motorcycles, the idea applies to cars aswell.

[fiznat]

yeah that website is actually pretty popular as far as people looking for break in methods. Over on fresh alloy they even call the "hard break in" method the "moto method."

As far as bearing "break in," there is no such thing. Your bearings should have no direct metal to metal contact (they float on oil), so therefore there is no break-in. The only thing you really need to break in on an engine like ours is the piston rings and perhaps cams if they are brand new.

Since Ivan runs built motors often I was hoping he or someone like him that works on freshly built motors can enlighten us with some experiance.

I talked breifly with Ivan about it, and he is NOT a fan of the "moto method." We didnt really get into complete details but he favors an easier break in procedure. I'm sure he'll chime in to tell us himself though...

[virus77]

I was a little concerned with the fact that most articles were motorcycle based aswell, thats why I wanted to bring it up.

[IvanAtSPRacing]

Here is my take on the break in.

We build probably 50 motors a year at Sound Performance and most of those motors are installed by us and are started for the very first time by us.

I believe in a full thermal cycle on the intital start up. During the warm up we top off coolant (burp the system) check for leaks and set the timing if nessasary. Leaks might not show up when the oil is cold and thick and the radiator has no pressure in it. After a full cool down, all fluids are checked again and a bolt check is done.

After everything is checked out, a test drive is in order (10-15 min). I believe in constantly changing the RPMs. Staying at one rpm can cause the rings to chatter and wear funny into the cylinder walls. My test drives are laps around the parking lot or a short drive on the street. At first I am just looking to make sure everything is working the way its suposed to. I start off with light acceleration and work my way up to moderate acceleration staying out of boost (most of our cars are boosted). As the test drive progresses, I run higher and higher RPMs (maybe to 75% of red line). Then its back into the shop for a leak and bolt check and a another cool down.

At this point, to be perfectly honest, most cars are either put on the dyno to tune the engine management and / or do horsepower pulls or they are taken out on the street to make some boost. It is nessasary for us to make sure everything is operating like it should be ie: boost control functioning, intercooler pipes not blowing off, nothing coming loose under power, etc. We do work our way up to full RPMs and WOT Boost during this time, always making sure things are working the way they should. Then final checks are done. At this point, the cars are given to the customers and they are asked to take it easy on the car for a while and bring it back in a couple days or couple hundred miles for an inspection and oil change.

As far as Moto Man and some of his ideas: He claims that if you dont force the pistons into the cylinder walls hard right away, that they wont wear their way into an effective seal because the cross hatch marks are worn away not too long after initial start up. My question is: How the hell are cross hatch marks worn away if the rings arent touching them like he claims? If the cross hatch marks are being worn away, then obviously they are honing the rings into an effective seal and likewise, the rings are honing the cylinder walls into an effective sealing surface. If the rings are "lightly" touching the cylinder walls at first (light break in) instead of being forced, then less wear will happen on the rings AND the walls and the cross hatch marks will remain untill you DO beast on the car and the rings are forced into the cylinder walls.

[klattr1]

break her in like your own girlfriend.you dont want to kill it so much the first time cuz you want it to last forever!

[sil80drifter]

Well I guess this is odd, cuz I posted this

http://www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=101571

a little while ago before this thread BUT:

IVAN, what Motoman is saying is that when barely new, there IS friction between the rings an the cylinder chambers, due to the imperfections of either as they are brand new, quote:

"How Do Rings Seal Against Tremendous Combustion Pressure ??"

From the actual gas pressure itself!! It passes over the top of the ring, and gets behind it to force it outward against the cylinder wall. The problem is that new rings are far from perfect and they must be worn in quite a bit in order to completely seal all the way around the bore. If the gas pressure is strong enough during the engine's first miles of operation (open that throttle !!!), then the entire ring will wear into the cylinder surface, to seal the combustion pressure as well as possible.

The Problem With "Easy Break In" ... The honed crosshatch pattern in the cylinder bore acts like a file to allow the rings to wear. The rings quickly wear down the "peaks" of this roughness, regardless of how hard the engine is run.

There's a very small window of opportunity to get the rings to seal really well ... the first 20 miles !!

If the rings aren't forced against the walls soon enough, they'll use up the roughness before they fully seat. Once that happens there is no solution but to re hone the cylinders, install new rings and start over again."..."The point of this is to remove the very small (micro) particles of ring and cylinder material which are part of the normal wear during this process. During deceleration, the particles suspended in the oil blow out the exhaust, rather than accumulating in the ring grooves between the piston and rings. This keeps the rings from wearing too much. "

Because the rings have not sealed when you fist put them in, there will be blue smoke, and etc, because there is blow by which means that there is not quite enough lubrication to let the rings form a complete seal and ride on a film of oil. Also he notes that rings do wear during startup and warmup, for the exact same reason, they are not warm enough, and have not expanded to the right size to seal everything off and form a good seal.

After the break-in process is complete, and the engine is warm, there is no "weardown."

And to answer your initial question, virus77 here is another quite from Motoman:

Notice that this technique isn't "beating" on the engine, but rather taking a purposeful, methodical approach to sealing the rings.

sil80
Modified by sil80drifter at 4:22 PM 2/12/2005

[goshoryukenx]

I have read some good stuff and most of these ideas will definately work into a succesful motor break in strategy.. but all the BUT's and IF's are giving me a head ache. Does this area of discussion have NO absolutes and definites? :-\

[IvanAtSPRacing]

[QUOTE=sil80drifter]

The Problem With "Easy Break In" ... The honed crosshatch pattern in the cylinder bore acts like a file to allow the rings to wear. The rings quickly wear down the "peaks" of this roughness, regardless of how hard the engine is run.

If the rings aren't forced against the walls soon enough, they'll use up the roughness before they fully seat. Once that happens there is no solution but to re hone the cylinders, install new rings and start over again."...

sil80

Looking at MotoMans quote above. My question is; How do the rings "use up the roughness before they fully seat"? If the rings arent pressed hard against the cylinder walls, then the rings arent getting fully broke in and likewise, the cylinder wall cross hatch marks arent being "used up" Think about a file for a second, you will remove more material when you press harder, also, the file will wear more quickly. You can do the same job with lighter pressure but it will take longer, but the same job is being done. He isnt making much sense.

[virus77]

At this point, to be perfectly honest, most cars are either put on the dyno to tune the engine management and / or do horsepower pulls or they are taken out on the street to make some boost.

So Ivan, essentially you get to operating temperatures and do your laps around the block, but after you get on a dyno or the street and load up the motor for testing, so you do apply pressure in the break in procedure, just not like motoman says.

When is it alright to start using full boost and driving normal, 1000 miles?

[TrunkMonkey]

When is it alright to start using full boost and driving normal, 1000 miles?

the way i was taught, mileage means nothing when breaking in an engine. the last engine i built was left idling at normal operating temperature for about 30 minutes while i checked for leaks, odd noises, proper level, etc.. it was then driven around town (stop and go traffic and a couple of interstate runs) for about an hour. after that the oil was drained, the oil pan dropped, and oil filter removed to check for any metal. all the fluid levels were then double checked, and that was that. the car's been running strong for over 3 years now. as ridiculous as it may sound to some, the philosophy i've come up with is if nothing goes wrong during this time frame, nothing will.

-demetrius

[IvanAtSPRacing]

I am not really saying what is or isnt correct for proper break in.

I did however state how motors that are fresh are treated here at the shop (unless the cusomer had other requests).

I do believe the break in time is a lot shorter then some people think. If it was CRITICAL for a motor to be eased into performance for long life and best performance, then manufacturers would be doing that at the factory instead of being left in the hands of customers.

[nissanfanatic]

I do believe the break in time is a lot shorter then some people think. If it was CRITICAL for a motor to be eased into performance for long life and best performance, then manufacturers would be doing that at the factory instead of being left in the hands of customers.

I agree here. Looking at the new daytona's the last time I was in our local cycle shop, they just have certain RPM limits for each amount of mileage. As you put more miles on the engine, the RPM limit rises. Its not an actual RPM limit, but just a notice on the gas tank with recommended RPM limits.

[sil80drifter]

If the rings are "worn" in their unexpanded state, they do not seat properly when they DO expand later on. Hence, when you don't put enough load on them and just drive around during break-in, they wear (both the rings and the cylinder walls), but the rings wear wrong, while wearing down the cross hatch pattern of the cylinders, and when they DO expand (when you punch it while driving around or what not), the rings are now worn in the wrong places will let blow by and etc occur.

sil80

[deezlins]

what about when you rebuild a motor and have the cylinder bored and honed, they dont usually re-crosshatch it do they?

what about cryo treated rings, if they are that much harder and harder to wear, wouldnt that affect break in?

what about coatings on the piston skirt, like the swain poly-moly coating, i think i heard its supposed to partially transfer to the cylinder wall during movement, wouldnt that affect ring wear some?

if the rings are filed and fitted correctly, how much do they actually need to wear on the cylinder walls?

[sil80drifter]

honing = crosshatching

when rings "wear in" they don't actually decrease in size, they just get rubbed in some against the walls and follow the imperfections already present due to the crosshatch, so they form to the pattern of the bore and vice versa. They don't wear down a noticeable amount when breaking in.

piston skirt coatings are NOT transferable to the cylinder walls, they are usually there to give the piston better heat-handling capability, such as specifric heat transfer ability of retaining heat on the surface but repelling it from beneath the coating... There are many coatings and purposes for that matter.

Again, the wearing in has nothing to do with having the rings filed/gapped right. The "wear" occurs on the outside edge of the ring and you should picture it more as a "rub in" than a "wear in." It's incredibly minimal and is really hard to measure with most tools (even micro meters), and certainly cannot be seen with the naked eye.

sil80

[deezlins]

you said that you should break it in hard so the rings will expand more and wear right. well if they expand more when you "punch it", then wouldnt they decrease when you werent? so would they be worn right and seal correctly for higher load or whatnot, but be sealed a little wrong when driving lightly?just trying to understand this the best i can.

[sil80drifter]

punch it = drive hard to wear them in, after that it = just gunning it.

under regular conditions, the rings expand to proper size and are just fine, whether you "punch it" or not, but for example the reason they wear when you just start the car (normally after breaking in etc), they let blow by occur because when still cold, they are not expanded to their operating size. This is why it's impotant to warm up your car before you get on it, otherwise blowby occurs and there is extra wear on the rings and cylidners.

Other reasons for warming up the car are are block vs. head vs. valve expansion rates, oil viscosity at cold temperatures, and etc.

When you break the engine in, AFTER YOU WARM IT UP. when you "punch it" the rings get expanded more than if you drive it during the so called gentle break-in (even more gentle than normal driving). This makes sure that the rings seat properly and wear in correctly. When yo drive normally after the break in, they will be seated in just about that same position as when you just "punched it." When you break them in gently, they do not expand fully (because you drive them under 3k rpm and light throttle), and do not wear in properly. This causes worse performance when you actually drive the car normaly, and performance losses when you get on it under normal conditions.

sil80
Modified by sil80drifter at 10:10 PM 2/22/2005

[96240SX41]

this thread here is going to be a life saver for me come june-july haha. i am defiently copy-pasting everything said and adding these sites to the favorites. Looks like both ways have there ups and downs, i'm probably gonna do like fiznat and split the difference of them. Sounds like the best idea!

[deezlins]

i still dont understand why the cross-hatching would wear the same rate regardless of if the ring was pushing against it just a little in its unexpanded state, or more in its fully expanded state?

[sil80drifter]

"cross-hatching" doesn't wear. it's a term for the process of honing. please restate your question.

sil80

[deezlins]

I meant the cross-hatching as a noun, not a verb. The cross-hatch pattern on the cylinder walls.

also, does anyone know about the cryo-treated ring question, i mean if its so important for the rings to wear and match with the cylinder wall, then wouldnt cryo-treated rings be much harder and tougher and not break in right?

[KATwo40]

break her in like your own girlfriend.you dont want to kill it so much the first time cuz you want it to last forever!

GAWWD!

[deezlins]

anyone know the answer to that cryo ring question?