Brakes, FSTB....(pics)

[DrewQ45]

One of my brake lines popped weeks ago so I ordered SS Braided set which arrived last Friday. Yesterday was rainy and nasty so I just chilled. I got started on things this morning.

Along with the lines, I decided to install the new FSTB which I just got from Jeff (thanks man, you're the best), new cross-drilled/slotted Rotors from iRotors and Stillen adjustable tension rods. The latter two were purchased over a YEAR ago and I never got around to it! .... Hey, the car was running and stopping fine so I was in no rush (lol).



The lines are Russell Brake lines...seem to be pretty good quality...each end is reinforced and sealed from dust and dirt as you can see here... You're looking at a rear hose..the fronts have two additional points where you secure it to the body with spring clips. Using pliers, I bent each and every clip used to a steeper curve so they would hold strong. You don't want movement with brake linesl and the clips weren't holding well without the slight modification.



Here is the brake line that popped... the break occurred just below the metal crimp and just before I got on the highway (phew). My foot sank right to the floor and I almost ran right through the light...It was my fault for not changing them sooner...Better pic below this one....

New lines and rotors installed on the front...

I was able to get the front lines and rotors done... I also put on new pads. My biggest stumbling block on the fronts was opening the bleeder nipple on the driver side. The nipple's rubber cap had long disappeared allowing water to enter and rust the threads. I was unable to pull it even using two channel locks and loads of WD-40. I ended up heating the area on the Caliper with a propane torch and tapping with with a hammer until I finally got it busted loose. You should see the teeth marks in the nut... LOL. I had to clean off the rusty nipple with steel wool (we could go places with this but I'll leave that alone)...LOL. That really slowed me up, but the worse was yet to come on the rears.

The inside diameter of the rear rotors (drum portion) was too small to fit over the parking bake shoes!!!... Damn iRotors...they screwed me again but this time, I took me over a year to find out. First it was non-delivery...(paid for the rotors which were never delivered....they billed me then claimed they lost my order...had to get refunded and order again)...now this. I could bang the rotors on over the shoes if I wished but it's a very tight fit and the wheel would not spin freely... I'd be asking for trouble/warpage if I proceeded. I'm going to call tomorrow and see what they can do...they'll probably tell me to go to hell after over a year. If nothing... then I'll take it somewhere and spend the extra $ to have them cut down (hopefully this is possible). I going to take the old rotor with me so they can gauge it off that. I never made it to the fstb and the tension rods but will add more pics when I do.

Word of advice...stay away from iRotors.

..Drew....

Modified by DrewQ45 at 11:53 PM 5/1/2005

Modified by DrewQ45 at 12:03 AM 5/2/2005
Modified by DrewQ45 at 5:39 PM 1/27/2009

[Rex]

Looks like you made some good progress. Now we need to come up with a spare pair of front and rear calipers to start rebuilding and circulating. The idea being, you get a pair of used ones, rebuild, paint the whole works, swap them onto your car and send yours to the next guy. Maybe one of the guys doing an upgrade could let us, before they sell them .

And you're dead on, Jeff's the man for getting the FTSB's going.

[maxnix]

And you're dead on, Jeff's the man for getting the FTSB's going.

Amen! Thanks, Jeff!

[Jeff Williams]

Mark, thanks for the props on the strut bar.

Did you try to adjust the rear ebrake drum? I have bougth rotors from iRotors before, and they fit fine. The ones on the front of Layla are the iRotors ones. I have 60K miles, and have not had any vibration yet. I ahve been through 2 sets of pads, though. The rear cracked, from overheating though. Not really the rotor's fault. I had a caliper sieze on the interstate about 10 miles from the house. Once the pad was gone, it was metal on metal, and sounded like I was dragging a trailer. I had no tools with me, so I forged on, knowing I had already ruined the rotor. I was able to get the caliper un stuck, but every time I used the brakes my hair would stand on end. When I got home, the rotor was well over 600 degrees and cracked like a burnt flywheel.

Get yourself some speedbleeders, to replace the bleeders on all 4 calipers. They are about $12 a pair. It allows you to bleed the brakes without a lot of hassle.

I went through 2 quarts of fluid in about 20 minutes, and flushed my brake system completely. First, with some clear CarQuest DOT4 fluid, then with a quart of ATE Superblue. I used a juice bottle, and about 12" of clear hose. Once the fluid ran clear, I knew it was flushed, then I went to the next wheel and did the same. I went in this order: RR, LR, RF, LF, then I repeated it with the blue fluid. Once it turned blue, I knew it was completely replaced.

By the way, is that the Right rotor, on the left side of your car?

JK, I just thought I would make you look.

[szh]

While I know that some people have had trouble with iRotors.com, I have to say that I did not have any trouble with four rotors that I bought from them (albeit some years ago.)

They worked very well (slotted and drilled Bradi rotors - this is a sister company to Brembo.)

Z

[DrewQ45]

"By the way, is that the Right rotor, on the left side of your car?

JK, I just thought I would make you look. "

Jeff, ....that was almost cold-hearted.... All that work flew through my mind...LOL What made it scary was that I had to think twice about it when I was installing them....Left, right...from what perspective? Sitting inside the car or outside looking at it head on? Luckily my common sense prevailed

Here's where it didn't prevail..... I didn't try adjusting the e-brake but will check that as soon as I get home. It looked as if it was adjusted as low as it could go... maybe I should have tried anyway. After fighting with the front, I was frazzled by the time I got to the back. I may have to take back half of what I said about i-Rotors. The rotors do seem to be of good quality and were much heavier in hand that those on the car... of course the ones on the car have been worn and cut so not a fair comparison... not sure what new OEM rotors weigh.

Caliper seizure is something I fear. Just about everytime I touch the brakes, I grease the slide pins with a lube made just for the that purpose... It's a green grease that comes in two "ketchup" packets and can be purchased for a few bucks from any local auto-parts store. Also, the slide pins sometimes develop rough spots which I smooth down with steel wool prior to greasing. Those are usually the spots that end up sticking when things get dry.

I'm a bit wary of the speedbleeders... It's just something else that can go wrong and when It comes to brakes, I want to keep it as simple as possible. I also can't justify buying them since bleeding is a rare occurrence (cheapskate). I'll just bleed them using the old method.

Does anyone use the Valvoline Full Syn Brake Fluid? Just wanted to know if any drawbacks were found.

..Drew....

[szh]

I may have to take back half of what I said about i-Rotors. The rotors do seem to be of good quality and were much heavier in hand that those on the car... of course the ones on the car have been worn and cut so not a fair comparison... not sure what new OEM rotors weigh.

This is from an old post by Dennis (Q45tech):

Stock 240SX 300ZX Turbo Slyline GT-R (R34) Infiniti Q45

Rotor Diameter: 10 inch 11 inch 11.6 inch 11 inchRotor Thickness: 18mm 30mm 32mm 28mmRotor Weight: 12.5 lbs 17.5 lbs 19 lbs 17.5 lbsCaliper Type: 1-piston sliding 4-piston fixed 4-piston fixed 2-piston slidingCaliper Weight: 9.5 lbs 6.5 lbs (alum), 10lbs (iron) 6.5 lbs 11 lbs

As you will note the Q front rotor at 17.5 pounds unfortunately many replacement rotors [same size] can be as low as 16.0 pounds.

Studying BMW M cars indicates 56 pounds of rotors for 3500 pound cars therefore one could assume [that a 4300 pound Q would need [4300/3500= 1.228 x or 68-69 pounds of rotors........something like a 22 pound front rotor with thicker/heavier rears [10>12 pounds] ............too achieve the same brake mass as a 1988 M5 BMW.

The newer LS430 has 20.1 pound front rotors vs 18.8 lbs in the 1998 LS400 vs 16.8 pound in the orginal LS400 [1990].

"One brake manufacturer showed us a cutaway of an offshore "economy" rotor for a particular vehicle that had 32 ribs. The OEM rotor, by comparison, had 37 ribs and provided up to eight percent better cooling than the economy rotor when tested in the laboratory. And because the OEM rib design ran cooler, pad life was 28 percent longer than the economy rotor.Another aftermarket brake manufacturer showed us test results that proved their rib design improves cooling and makes their rotor three times quieter than a competitive rotor. The recorded sound levels showed noise as high as 85 decibels screaming out of the Brand X economy rotor compared to only 40 to 50 decibels from their own "premium" quality rotor. "

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf10 ... ionSlides/ ws2003/Bhat031703.ppt

[Jeff Williams]

Sorry to scare you. I put mine on backwards, and had to re-install. I have seen several slotted rotors installed backwards on 300zx's since then.

If you look on the top of the strut tower, there is a "R" stamped in the passenger's side, and a "L" stamped in the drover's side.

My rotors did not come with a "R" or "L" on them. I was so excited to get them on the car, I didn't pay attention until I was taking some pictures. The rears were on right, and the fronts were on wrong.

[elwesso]

Glad your getting it done Drew...

I have a bad rear caliper.. Fortunately im putting on new brakes so its all gravy..... But definitely glad your doing good here, keep it up!

[DrewQ45]

Thanks fellas.... Good info szhosain.

I made some good progress last night. I was able to adjust the drum brake and get the rear rotors installed. I’ve also replaced the brake lines with steel braided along with a broken stud on the rear passenger side. Once again Jeff, you are the man! I’ve come to realize that at a certain point when you’re laying on the floor all day and your back is hurtin, you need to just take a break so your mind can recoup. I’m really getting too old for this crap…but I do enjoy it still… the greatest pleasure being the $$$ I’m saving instead of lining the dealer/someone else’s pockets and I know the job is getting done right!!!

Replacing the rear lines was less work than the fronts, but pulling the rear driver’s side flex brake line off the hard steel line was a bear due to things being in the way. None of my brake line connections broke loose with a 10" wrench and would strip the nut when I tried. I had to use two channel locks or pliers/channel lock combo to pull them and the size of those tools along with my big paws makes it hard to maneuver. I pre-sprayed them with penetrant so they would soak until I got to them.

Folks, if any of you are replacing the lines with steel braided... I suggest that you first catch, but not tighten the end connecting to the hard steel line running along the chassis leaving it very loose. This will allow the new line to twist into a comfortable position free of stress when you connect the caliper end which should be your next step. You then connect all the metal clips (bend them to a steeper angle for a stronger hold) except for the last clip at the steel line connection. You should then tighten up the steel line connection (doing this prior to the clip allows the line to move up and down enabling you to get a grip on the nuts with your tools). This should lengthen the life of your new lines by eliminating the stress on it. I actually started out doing it the wrong way but quickly realized, went back and did it right. NOTHING should be forced into position.

Jeff, I wonder what the difference is between the R and L rotors? It’s imperceptible to me. I lined them up and the both looked the same in every way. There must be a reason but it escapes me.

Wes… IMHO there are only two major things that can go wrong with a caliper. Either the seals go bad causing a leak, or the slide pins dry out and cause it to lock up. Greasing the pins is probably the easiest form of maintenance I can think of.

Well…that’s it for now… My 13 year old daughter will be my “2nd man” in the brake bleeding process…she’ll be stomping on the brakes while I bark out the commands…should be fun. While I was working on the car yesterday, I heard a loud “thud”…she comes running out saying the industrial sized container of laundry detergent (Costco) fell off the shelf and busted on the floor. Detergent was splattered from ceiling to floor…. Of course she “didn’t do it”, even though she was the one doing laundry…I keep telling her that we need to get the house exorcised since there must be a ghost who keeps screwing up things. All I could do was laugh and tell her “make this look like it never happened” while handing her a bucket and rags.

Hmmm...those speed-bleeders are actually starting to entice me right about now......

More to come….. Strut bar and Tension Rods….

Drew.

Modified by DrewQ45 at 10:46 AM 5/3/2005
Modified by DrewQ45 at 10:50 AM 5/3/2005

[maxnix]

Great tip on the brakelines, Drew. Thanks.

[Jeff Williams]

It is the direction of the slots. The slots should push dust and water to the outside edge, just like directional treads on a tire. as you rotate the rotor in the forward direction, watch along the edge of the brake pad. as the slot becomes clear, the gap moves toward the outside of the pad surface.

Don't forget to keep an eye on the master cylinder fluid level. Dov't ever let it suck air! Only do about 2 "pump up and bleed" shots, then add a little more fluid. With the speed bleeders, all you ahve to do is stand by the master cylinder and watch the clear bottle, to see when the new fluid pumps out. That way you can keep the fluid level topped of in the master cylinder.

I bought a whole bottle of the caliper lin grease. It was about $5, and should last me to the end of my natural life.

[szh]

Thanks fellas.... Good info szhosain.

You are welcome, but it is really Dennis (Q45tech), as usual, that deserves the commendation!

Z

[DrewQ45]

And right you are... Dennis is a wealth of knowledge on the Q.... thanks Dennis.

[DrewQ45]

Got home today and bled the brakes all around including the two nipples on top of the ABS. Not that it would matter much because my ABS is not working at the moment. I had a mechanic friend of mine change the driver’s side wheel bearing over a year ago (maybe more) and when he was done, the yellow ABS light was on. According to him, he did nothing to cause it, but it wasn’t a problem till he worked on the car. When I start the car, the ABS light is off… as soon as I start driving, it turns on.

In all I bled almost a quart of brake fluid by the time I was done. Is it okay to bleed brakes with the reservoir cover off? I left it off cause I kept adding fluid.

Anyway… I took the car for a test drive and was not happy with the results. The pedal feel is slow and mushy…almost lethargic. Certainly not what I would expect with new rotors and steel lines. I went for a long drive stomping on the brakes after making sure no one was following closely… a few times I got the wheels to lock up but for the most part, they were strong but gradual stops with wheel lockup occurring at pretty low speeds if it did at all. Since the ABS is not working, I’m thinking the wheels should lock up as soon as I slam on the brakes and I should be getting quick/sharp and fast response from the pedal.

I have a feeling that the driver’s side front caliper needs new seals. When I was putting it back on, I noticed that one of the rubber piston boots was not neatly folded in accordion fashion as one would expect, rather the rubber was a bit wrinkled. I didn’t think much of it until I started checking the brakes after my test run. Using an extendable shop mirror, I checked for brake fluid leaks at all points. I was able to see a tiny wet spot or trickle going down the back of the inner brake pad (driver’s side). I’ll give it till tomorrow and check again. Anyone know what a caliper kit goes for nowadays?

Verdict…. I’m not a happy camper yet. I’ll try bleeding the brakes again but am not looking forward to taking the wheels off again..

Any suggestions welcome.
Modified by DrewQ45 at 10:58 PM 5/3/2005

[Jeff Williams]

It does sound like a bleeding issue. The air should migrate to the caliper, so bleeding them again might get some foamy fluid or even air. watch very closely, and make sure your daughter doesn't release the brake until you have re-closed the bleeder.