Brakes-Dealer vs. Independent Repair Shop

[goM35]

I have an '06 M35X and the rear brakes are at the point of needing new pads. What's the consensus on dealer vs. my local goodyear repair shop? Goodyear will use Ceramic pads and resurface the rotors, plus throw in lifetime on pads-I only pay for labor in the future. The dealer charges $330 vs. $175 at Goodyear...so it's a no brainer assuming the job is the same. Appreicate any experiences with non dealers brake work and what to ask for that you can share.

thanks.

[NightWatch]

Any reputable shop will do a decent job on the brakes, there's really nothing out of the ordinary on the M series as far as brakes go. Depending on your relationship with the 3rd party shop, they may come back and recommend a bunch of brake services that may or may not be necessary that will greatly increase that $175 figure. Pads are relatively inexpensive so "lifetime" on pads that doesn't include labor really doesn't get you much.

[M4T5]

I prefer doing them myself. If your comfortable with Goodyear's services then let them do the brake job.Also, how many miles are on your car?? One thing they may also recommend is a brake flush. This is recommended over 30Kmi or whenever your first set of brake pads need replacement. You can either let them do it with their aftermarket type fluid or just go to a Nissan dealership and have them perform the brake flush. Not sure if Nissan would be any cheaper than Infiniti, but others seem to make it out that it is.Both will use the same products in your Infiniti.

J

[YMm45]

yeh i would agree i did my brakes last week in all i ended up paying for parts about 65$ and that's only cause i used hawk pads but they were well worth it i turned the rotors myself at my old school but i must say a very simple brake job nothing really strange i was actually really surprised with my local goodyear i stoped by there to find out how much it would cost to turn my rotors and they told me 47 each with out tax to me that was outrages but G/L with wich ever way you go

[Q45tech]

Redesigning ABS, Traction Control and brake system by changing to other than oem pads often creates problems in panic cold wet stopping distances.

Aftermarket pads are only promised to fit nothing else, especially the friction vs temperature curve or the initial friction ramp up rate in the first 1.0 second when you travel up to 100 feet.

The US has no specifications for aftermarket pads unlike oem pads which must meet minimal standards

It is a miracle that aftermarket pads do as well as they do without any actual testing on a vehicle.

Only the guy who rear ends someone accuses the other guy to be at fault for stopping to quickly.

[M4T5]

Redesigning ABS, Traction Control and brake system by changing to other than oem pads often creates problems in panic cold wet stopping distances.

Aftermarket pads are only promised to fit nothing else, especially the friction vs temperature curve or the initial friction ramp up rate in the first 1.0 second when you travel up to 100 feet.

The US has no specifications for aftermarket pads unlike oem pads which must meet minimal standards

It is a miracle that aftermarket pads do as well as they do without any actual testing on a vehicle.

Only the guy who rear ends someone accuses the other guy to be at fault for stopping to quickly.

But is there results stating oem pads are superior to aftermarket units??If I were to use Hawk pads, I would also be switching to slotted/ drilled rotors as well. Just my preference. Usually the combo works very well.

J

[xsbc63x]

I prefer doing them myself. If your comfortable with Goodyear's services then let them do the brake job.Also, how many miles are on your car?? One thing they may also recommend is a brake flush. This is recommended over 30Kmi or whenever your first set of brake pads need replacement. You can either let them do it with their aftermarket type fluid or just go to a Nissan dealership and have them perform the brake flush. Not sure if Nissan would be any cheaper than Infiniti, but others seem to make it out that it is.Both will use the same products in your Infiniti.

J

is their anything special you need to bleed the brakes on the m? like on some cars you need a scan tool to actuate the abs

[GJEMD]

"One thing they may also recommend is a brake flush. This is recommended over 30Kmi or whenever your first set of brake pads need replacement."

flushing modern brake fluid @ 30,000 miles is about as important as making sure all the labels on the soup cans in your cabinet are all facing forward

[goM35]

Thanks to all you experts for the valuable comments. Since i'm not a do it yourselfer, i'll head down to Goodyear next week for service.

Btw, is it common for the inside brake pad to wear significantly more than the outside pad? That's what I found to be current on my rear brakes...and the fronts too, though they have plenty of meat left on them.

[M4T5]

"One thing they may also recommend is a brake flush. This is recommended over 30Kmi or whenever your first set of brake pads need replacement."

flushing modern brake fluid @ 30,000 miles is about as important as making sure all the labels on the soup cans in your cabinet are all facing forward

You really know nothing about maintenance do you???Fluids break down and so do there chemical counterparts.The brake system is subjected to a lot of heat. The fluid will break down. The anti corrosion additives break down as well. This keeps the internals free of corrosion. Keeping the internals of a brake system in top condition should be a great priority to any auto owner. The sad thing is...like you and many others, they neglect maintenance due to ignorance or just not caring enough about their condition of their vehicle.Do what "YOU" want with your vehicles. I just feel sorry for those who own them after you!

J

[M45Caliber]

M4T5 is partially correct in that heat does play a roll is fluid breakdown (or in this case would it "brake"down?) ahem.. at any rate the biggest culprit in brake fluid breakdown is moisture absorption over time, so in many cases it's the AGE of the fluid as opposed to the number of miles driven.

As for rear pads, my understanding (and only the Infiniti engineers could explain WHY...) is that the FRONT OEM pads on our M's are ceramic and the rears are metallic, which is why they wear out 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 to the fronts.

This is the first car I've owned (out of 56, mind you) where the REAR pads wear out BEFORE the fronts.

I too have been toying with putting ceramics on the rear... but I don't know what the consequences might be. I intend to discuss this with a braking professional to find out. Maybe head over to Bondurant Driving school (it's 15 miles away) and talk with some of their mechanics on the pros and cons of such a switch.

OK GUYS -- another topic -- IS IT NECESSARY to machine the rotors when changing out the pads? I've heard ASE certified Master Mechanics swear to both YES and NO answers... so what has been your experiences? Back in the day, when we raced IMSA and SCCA, all we would do is just swap pads and be back on the track... with no adverse effects at all.

One dealer advisor told me the dealers do NOT machine the rotors; their brake jobs actually just consist of swapping out the pads - they've found it doesn't make a difference, and many dealerships don't have the cutting machines on site.... any truth to this?

Machining rotors makes them thinner, thus more prone to warping. Is this an issue with the M's? Keep those cards and letters coming....

[M4T5]

The main reason to "cutting" rotors down is to achieve an even flat surface. If there are no signs of a warped rotor, then a light scuffing or cross hatching to the rotor surface is all that is needed. What I mean is, you take a cordless drill with a sanding disc on the end of it and just scuff the inner and outer pad contact surfaces of the rotor.This will ensure a rotor to pad matching or a break in to seat the pads properly to the rotors. I highly advise this step if the rotors are not going to be resurfaced due to the fact that the rotor surfaces may have a glazing layer on the surfaces. This glazing can create glazing on the the pads which will result in less braking power (marginal) and the irritating squeal or squeaks.

You really cannot compare IMSA or SCCA type racing brake pads/ rotors to your everyday aftermarket brake pads or rotors. Who has the time to turn or replace rotors on race day anyways?

BTW, any dealer that does not have a brake lathe and performs brake jobs should be avoided! I can see dealers like BMW or Mercedes not having a brake lathe due to the fact that when their rotors are warped they require replacement, not resurfacing.

My main reasoning to changing out the brake fluid when the pads need replacement is due to the corrosion inhibitors breaking down and not being able to protect the internals brake fluid passages from corrosion. You can always go by the brake fluid test that uses a paper type stick that determines the condition of the fluid. Keep one thing in mind though about that. It may have been good right at that time, but that doesn't mean it could start failing just a few thousand miles later. Hope this helps or clears some of this up.

J

[SteveTheTech]

It is a miracle that aftermarket pads do as well as they do without any actual testing on a vehicle.

Only the guy who rear ends someone accuses the other guy to be at fault for stopping to quickly.

Brilliant people so often try to find the cheapest and thereby best repair without considering the side effects.

CVS brand Night-Quill isn't the same as the good stuff. Not all things are created equal.

There are a few talking points I wanted to address here.

If your going to go aftermarket, go with Akebono. The original pad maker. They may wear similarly to OE but every 30k really isn't too awful for reliable silent operation.

The pads from places like IOS aren't too expensive. Ceramics and slotted rotors aren't needed for 99% of M owners.

Brake fluid gets dirty and it's extremely hydroscopic. I flush all my cars at 10-15k, but that's just me. It's something small and often over thought but it's what directly connects your foot to the brakes, sounds important to me.

IS IT NECESSARY to machine the rotors when changing out the pads?

I've done hundreds if not thousands of brake jobs, both with resurfacing, replacing rotors, and just a simple pad slap. Infinitis specification for lateral runout is 0.005", any more and replacement is recommended. Many people with never notice variance of up to 0.008-0.010" .Removing 0.006" from the rotors and giving it a non directional finish will give your brake pads the chance to break into the rotors correctly. There is a chemical exchange that happens when the rotors come up to temperature and you properly bed the pads to the rotors you will get the best results from your brake job. I got lazy one of the last times I put pads on one of my cars and didn't resurface, the brakes felt the same and seemed to fade faster. The following weekend I filed down the pads, resurfaced the rotors and match mounted them to the hubs. I'm telling you not as a dealer tech but as an Infiniti connoisseur a proper brake job will yield results that are worth the work/money.

An M deserves the best, I spent years working for Goodyear and I would not bring wifes RSX to them to mount her tires. I like piece of mind, especially when it comes to brakes. If they were fixing a CEL the worse thing that could happen is I get left stranded not crashing into the guy in front of me.

I have told all my trainees and young apprentices that come through the shop to always take brakes seriously, don't slack on it and for gods sake if you don't know ask. You need to consider the owner of the car his/her family members and the people who they will be driving near for the next few years, there are no second chances.

/rant

[M45Caliber]

Steve -- you never answered the one question nagging me (no not my wife this time...) Ceramic pads in the back vs. the factory metallics or organics or whatever they are... I notice that, for the rear brakes, ceramic and semi-metallics (or whatever) are both available. With ceramics wearing so much longer and minimizing brake dust, is there a performance reduction in installing the ceramics on the back as well as the front?

[SteveTheTech]

Yeah the reason I skipped that one is I do not know the answer for you. I looked through all the information I have access to and I'm drawing a blank on the differences and available options.

Let me ask one of my parts guys I bet he'll know something more about it.

[M4T5]

I'm too with you on that one. Infiniti is not the only manufacturer that does this either. I've noticed quite a few vehicles that have had this type of combo. At least there is an application for rear ceramic pads for the M's. Many other makes do not have the rear ceramic pad choice in the aftermarket segment.

I too would like to know the reasoning for many auto manufacturers using metallic pads on the rear of their vehicles.

J

[M4T5]

Just a little Brake pad info to read. I have yet come across the reasoning for ceramic/ metallic pad combo.

http://www.autoanything.com/ar....aspx

Another reading: http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/ic10422.htm

Here's a statement from a brake pad seller: Do I need to use the same friction on the rear as on the front?

There is no easy answer to this one. Front – Rear braking has many different configurations. You have rear discs and rear drums. Sometimes your front and rear brakes are evenly matched and many times they are not. You may see 12” rotors, front and rear or 12” front and 9” or 10” rear. Many times you have metallic front pads with organic rears. Hydraulic pressures also affect the mix. Fronts run 800 to 1000 psi and rears 400 psi or less.

At Brakewarehouse.com, we start with what your vehicle’s manufacturer recommends. This does not always mean we will recommend matched friction front and rear.

J
Modified by M4T5 at 10:49 AM 3/8/2009

[audtatious]

Hmmm...I tend to agree with Q45Tech and Steve. I have 140k on my Maxima (same set of rotors BTW ) and have obviously had the brakes done a few times. With aftermarket bads (mid line and even the high-end pads I've tried) I was not happy with them, they were noisy and the pads wore faster. Since letting Nissan replace them with OEM pads I have been happy with pedal feel and lack of noise.

[YMm45]

i must disagree with saying that aftermarket pads don't compare to oem factory i have used hawk pads all my like on all my cars this includes two drag cars i can honestly say that they are way better then the oem pads i had on the car i had about 3 months of wear left on my pads said per the dealership and everyone that drove my car said the same as i did it stopped horrible it had a slight shake in it after changing the pads to hawk pads and turn of the rotors and its night and day i would suggest just do your research on your pads i wont just put any pads on my car

[GJEMD]

Hmmm...I tend to agree with Q45Tech and Steve. I have 140k on my Maxima (same set of rotors BTW ) and have obviously had the brakes done a few times. With aftermarket bads (mid line and even the high-end pads I've tried) I was not happy with them, they were noisy and the pads wore faster. Since letting Nissan replace them with OEM pads I have been happy with pedal feel and lack of noise.

how many times have you flushed the brake fluid??

[SteveTheTech]

There is no easy answer to this one. Front – Rear braking has many different configurations. You have rear discs and rear drums. Sometimes your front and rear brakes are evenly matched and many times they are not. You may see 12” rotors, front and rear or 12” front and 9” or 10” rear. Many times you have metallic front pads with organic rears. Hydraulic pressures also affect the mix. Fronts run 800 to 1000 psi and rears 400 psi or less.

That's a good non biased way to put it. Makes sense when you think about it.

i must disagree with saying that aftermarket pads don't compare to oem factory i have used hawk pads all my like on all my cars this includes two drag cars i can honestly say that they are way better then the oem pads i had on the car i had about 3 months of wear left on my pads said per the dealership and everyone that drove my car said the same as i did it stopped horrible it had a slight shake in it after changing the pads to hawk pads and turn of the rotors and its night and day i would suggest just do your research on your pads i wont just put any pads on my car

So your saying when your pads where almost completely worn out your brakes sucked? That's usually how it goes. Hawks may indeed work for you if you race your M or drive aggressively. As stated several times in this thread, 99% of drivers will never have an issue with the OE brakes.

I make NO money if you buy OE, to me what you do to your car is irrelevant we're all here to just share our stories.

[goM35]

Btw, is it common for the inside brake pad to wear significantly more than the outside pad? That's what I found to be current on my rear brakes...and the fronts too, though they have plenty of meat left on them.

[yosM45]

I have a shop here by my house in Ruskin, that will turn my rotors and install my pads for $30 a wheel. So i buy OEM pads, and pay $120 for the install. Can't beat it, especially when Infiniti wants $300 just to turn the rotors.

[M4T5]

Keep in mind that your brake shop of choice should re-surface the rotors on the car. Not off the car. It can be done the other way, but on the car resurfacing is the best way to even out run out and be hub matched at the same time. If this is a reputable shop, they should have an on the car brake lathe.Just an FYI.

J

[YMm45]

idk to me 3 months left is about a average of about 3000 miles to me i think if i have that long left they should perform just a little better not sure if any one else had this problem or maybe it was just me I did have a lip on the rotors that i had to remove while turning them but i did not really see how that could of been the problem either

[QUOTE=SteveTheTech]

So your saying when your pads where almost completely worn out your brakes sucked? That's usually how it goes. Hawks may indeed work for you if you race your M or drive aggressively. As stated several times in this thread, 99% of drivers will never have an issue with the OE brakes.

[szh]

how many times have you flushed the brake fluid??

On my cars, every 30k miles or 2 years ... whichever comes first.

Z