Brake line problem...

[dbutler249]

So I went to swap out my front brake pads yesterday and it turned out they were fine - it's the rear's that need replacing.Kinda sucked since I bought the pads for the front, but hey - no biggie.That's not the issue though.I noticed that the brake pedal had that "mushy" feeling to it after I was done and decided to bleed the brakes lines to get all the air out of the lines (I'm not sure what the technical term for this is, but I used the tubing process I keep seeing referred to on here).I got air out of and have fluid running to all my brake lines including my anti-lock brakes lines under the hood - except for the front left (drivers side)... now I have little to no braking power at all.Any clues as to what's going on here and how to fix it?I planned on taking it to a shop this afternoon, but if you guys had any ideas or suggestions as well.Hope this makes sense and any help is most appreciated

[Q451990]

The only thing I can think of, is that the Q uses a dual chamber master cylinder, so you may have run the front portion dry during the flushing process without being aware of it... then topped it off, but have a big air pocket in there? Your ABS should have front and rear bleed screws too...

Did you follow the bleeding order in the FSM?

LRRRLFRFFront ABSRear ABS

Did you remove the bleeder screw completely to see if it's clogged? Most Q bleeder screws lost their protective rubber caps long ago. Any obvious leaks in the flex lines going to any of the calipers?

Heath

[dbutler249]

I didn't bleed the entire line (I just loosened the bleed screws to get air out of the lines). I had plenty of brake fluid in the reservoir, but topped it off anyways when nothing was coming through the FL line.

I went FR, FL, RR, RL, Front ABS, Rear ABS

I just hoping its not the master cylinder...

[troy3399]

My best guess you didn't bleed it properly. This is how you do it.

Before servicing the vehicle, refer to the Precautions Section.

CAUTIONWhile bleeding the brake system, pay attention to the master cylinder fluid level.

Turn the ignition switch OFF and disconnect the ABS actuator and electric unit (control unit) connector or negative battery cable, if equipped with ABS. Raise and safely support the vehicle. Attach a vinyl tube to the right, rear bleeder valve. Depress the brake pedal fully 4 or 5 times. With the brake pedal depressed, loosen the bleeder valve to let the air out, (connect tube with half water in bottle so you can see air bubble) then tighten it immediately. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until no more air comes out. Tighten the bleeder valve. Fill the master cylinder reservoir. Repeat the above steps for the left front, left rear, and the right front calipers, in that order.

[Q451990]

I would ignore the post above this one... water? Water should never be anywhere near your brake system since it's the enemy of brake fluid performance! Brake fluid is hygroscopic and will absorb water that then boils as the fluid is heated during stopping. Brake fade city! Heaven forbid someone sucks this water back into the brake system... You should be able to view the fluid's air content by looking through a clear vinyl tube that's used between the bleeder and your collection pan.

Also, the order I posted is the one from the FSM. Remember that the ABS actuator, for this application, "replaces" the master cylinder in terms of the location. The idea is to bleed the brake that is farthest away from the source.

To the o/p, I assume you know that bleeding the brakes means having an assistant build pressure in the system by pumping the brake pedal until it's firm, then keeping their foot on the pedal while you open the bleeder valve. Then you close the bleeder valve before the assistant lets the pedal move up from the floor. Otherwise you'll suck air back into the system...

There are several ways around this - my favorite being speed bleeders. These replace your bleeder valves and have a check valve in there, so you don't retighten them during the "pumping up" portion...

There are also vacuum pumps that can be used to pull the fluid through the system.

In any case, the goal is to get clear, bubble-free, fluid coming out of each caliper in the order above.

Heath

[dbutler249]

Yeah - I had an help with the bleeding process - I loosened the valve, had my friend pump the brakes and I tightened the valve once the fluid started to flow...well expect the FL - no fluid what-so-ever. I actually took the entire bleed screw out to see what the deal was and it was bone dry, so it hasn't had fluid going to it in quite some time.

[Q451990]

Time to work your way backwards on that line from the caliper to the hard line, to the ABS pump.

But I would go back and re-do the entire process again in the correct order to make sure you didn't create an air bubble in there that needs to come out. Try the simple stuff first...

Heath

[troy3399]

Reply to Q451990"I would ignore the post above this one... water? Water should never be anywhere near your brake system since it's the enemy of brake fluid performance! Brake fluid is hygroscopic and will absorb water that then boils as the fluid is heated during stopping. Brake fade city! Heaven forbid someone sucks this water back into the brake system... You should be able to view the fluid's air content by looking through a clear vinyl tube that's used between the bleeder and your collection pan."

brake suck water back into brake system LOL. Are you really that dumb? I say take a coke bottle put half water in then have an assistance depress bake fully while release the air. It's impossible water suck back into because pressure coming out not in LOL

[dbutler249]

Such a pain - So the mechanic said that he wouldn't be able to see what the problem is until I replace the rear pads. Makes sense since that effects the pedal compression but all this back and forth crap is annoying. He also said that I need new rotors since its metal on metal right now - which is bull 'cause I checked them out and even though its close, there aren't any markings or groves on the plate.Here we go again -

[elwesso]

I would never let brake fluid anywhere near water.. Theres simply no reason to do so. Also, when you let off the pedal it will bring some fluid back in... Not a real appreciable amount but still....

Ive found the Q brake system is pretty easy to bleed, and I typically do it by myself, however having a helper is nice. Buying one of those "one man brake bleeder" things is nice, its got a check valve in the lid so it lets air out but not back in. Speedbleeders are nice too, but I dont know if id recommend them, mine leak a tiny bit..

I would start by bleeding the master cylinder, THEN bleed all 4 lines. The MC usually only needs 2 pumps to get the air out, but you may need more on the other ones...

[Q451990]

brake suck water back into brake system LOL. Are you really that dumb?

Are you really that dumb?

You close the valve after the fluid squirts for a reason... to keep it from sucking air back in. So if something goes wrong... assistant lets off too soon, or you forget to close the valve, the hose can act as a straw and suck water back into the system. So I stand by my statement. It is asinine to have water anywhere near the brake system. Check the acutal fluid through the clear vinyl hose you use to bridge the gap between your caliper and catch pan for inspection.

Heath

[qship96]

I agree 100%. Troy needs to go back to basic automotive skills 101 before he does some serious stupid damage to his car, or god forbid, anyone elses car who listens to his advice!

[Q45tech]

A smart person would replace all flex brake lines every 10 years or 150k.WHEN you have one fail remember this little chat.

[maxnix]

I agree 100%. Troy needs to go back to basic automotive skills 101 before he does some serious stupid damage to his car, or god forbid, anyone elses car who listens to his advice!

Posts quickly, thinks little if at all much later.

[Trumpkin]

It's impossible water suck back into because pressure coming out not in LOL

This statement is false. When you lift the pedal the bleeder sucks in. This is the reason why you close it. If you are a noob please do not try this! What is the point of the water? If you want to use fluid for some reason atleast use brake fluid in the bottle! THINK, then post!

[dbutler249]

Ok - so I went ahead and bled the brake lines in the appropriate order and although I got rid of a lot of air in the lines, it didn't fix the problem. Just to recap what that problem is...I have little to no braking power right now. The pedal goes to the floor and even though I can feel the brake pads clamping down on the rotors there doesn't seem to be any substantial compression behind it. I removed the front right bleed valve (before bleeding process) and it was bone dry. Looks like there hasn't been fluid reaching it for some time.So far I think I have a collapsed line to my front right brake.All the other lines have fluid going to them just fine.Any more thoughts?

[Trumpkin]

There is a good chance it is a brake hose and not the line. Brake hoses can rust from the inside causing a block. Water may have entered the system at one time (esp. if troy owned it!). Or it may be a result of age. Either way it sounds as if the right hose is clogged. Remove it and try to blow air through it. If no air will go through that is your problem. Assuming the bleeder is not clogged.

[dbutler249]

I just heard back from the mechanic and the front brake hose was partially collapsed after all, but fluid should have still been reaching the calipers.He's saying the master cylinder is bad, but I have doubts since there's brake fluid reaching all the other lines... what are some other (less expensive) problems that I should have looked in to before going that route?

[Trumpkin]

what are some other (less expensive) problems that I should have looked in to before going that route?

I don't really understand this statement??? What route are you talking about? It's clear you are limited with your knowledge/skill or your car would not be at the shop. I'm not trying to be rude, however brake system repairs on a car this old are common! Are you whining about cost? Then do it yourself. Frankly it sounds like you gave up too soon. Don't ask our advice then confuse us by bringing silly questions in. What exactly is wrong with the master cyl.?

[maxnix]

brake suck water back into brake system LOL. Are you really that dumb? I say take a coke bottle put half water in then have an assistance depress bake fully while release the air. It's impossible water suck back into because pressure coming out not in LOL

Wow!

That needs to be enshrined in the blooper post Forum!

[maxnix]

At 17 years of age and with unknown but likely imperfect maintenance, it is time to replace all rubber including caliper seals in your brake system.

Unless you want to die on the highway. If you do, paint your bumpers bright orange so I can stay away from you.

Of course your mechanic is turning the rear rotors on a lathe and measuring hub run-out?

[dbutler249]

I don't really understand this statement??? What route are you talking about? It's clear you are limited with your knowledge/skill or your car would not be at the shop. I'm not trying to be rude, however brake system repairs on a car this old are common! Are you whining about cost? Then do it yourself. Frankly it sounds like you gave up too soon. Don't ask our advice then confuse us by bringing silly questions in. What exactly is wrong with the master cyl.?

You're absolutely right - I am VERY limited in my knowledge when it comes not only my car, but car's in general. I'm not really whining about cost since the quoted price for parts & labor the mechanic gave me is well within my budget - I'm just wondering if anyone else has run into similar situations and knows how to go about this. I would like to further my knowledge and skill set when it comes to working on car's myself and am simply looking for any and all advise. I can't say I specifically know whats wrong, but the mechanic stated that the MC is not putting out the amount of brake fluid it needs to and should be replaced. The reason I question this is because I get brake fluid to all my other brake lines - its just the front drivers side line that isn't getting any fluid to it. I might not be using or even know the correct verbiage, so I can see my posts for help being frustrating, but any patience and help is most appreciated.

[maxnix]

Both you and your "mechanic's" assumptions may be in error.

Read some brake posts on here. But you most likely need to replace all brake system rubber, shim kits, pads and shoes, turn the rotors, and measure hub run out before reinstalling rotors.

[dbutler249]

Thanks to everyone for their input. I have new pads and shims all the way around and all of my rotors are in order as well but will look into the brake system rubber.Earlier someone commented about bleeding the MC, but I wasn't able to see the bleeder valve and was wondering if anyone knows where to look for it.

(Again - not all that car savvy, but trying to learn)

[Trumpkin]

The mc has no bleeder. You must "bench" bleed it. That means do it off the car. The best way to aquire car skills/knowledge is spend 20+ years doing it! Most of these other guys only get their hands dirty if they fall in the shop!