Brake Fluid Flush Inquiry 04 M45

[RickMM]

Do you recommend a dealer perform this service? I was quoted $185 for my 04 M45 with 49K. In previous posts I see a Castrol fluid should be used? appreciate any feedback. Thanks-

[ezb57e]

It couldn't hurt after all those years, especially if you live in a damp environment or are hard on your brakes.
The factory has started recommending brake fluid replacement on many vehicles, at various intervals.
I think it's to offset the declining income resulting from reduced maintenance schedules, and more reliable vehicles.
Changing/flushing fluids is a big profit center for repair businesses these days.
Maybe you can get a better deal somewhere.

[Larz]

Supposedly, the reason for changing brake fluid is due to unavoidable moisture in the lines and eventual loss of viscosity in the fluid which results in less effective braking. As the fluid weakens, the distance it takes to stop your car increases - not a good thing when you're doing 70 mph and you need to stop NOW.
As for the interval, I have mine changed when I need discs replaced - that way the mechanic just charges me for the fluid cost since he has the car hoisted and one axle without wheels. He usually charges about $100 + the cost of the brake job.

[szh]

I change brake fluid every 30k miles or so ... occurs a bit over 2 years apart.

Z

[ezb57e]

While it cant' hurt, I just find it interesting that the fluid change has gone from never, to every year on some cars.
Has there been some vast change in brake components or technology?

[Larz]

You raise a good point. Perhaps changes in the formulation of brake fluid (environment regs, gov regs, or maybe just a cheaper quality formula) has caused this. But I'm 31 and I can't recall ever NOT having to change brake fluid about every 2 years or nearly very brake job.

[RickMM]

Thanks everyone for your input.

[ezb57e]

Brake fluid does indeed absorb moisture, and its designed that way, to keep the brake fluid from freezing or boiling.
As it absorbs moisture, its boiling point lowers, increasing the ability of the fluid to turn into a compressible state, which could result in decreased pressure to the pads during braking.
Viscosity is not affected and not a factor.
Flushing it periodically is a prudent move providing you are not being overcharged.
I'm pointing out that Nissan did not include it in their service schedules until fairly recently.

[EniGmA1987]

While it cant' hurt, I just find it interesting that the fluid change has gone from never, to every year on some cars.
Has there been some vast change in brake components or technology?

Never? It has never been never. Brake fluid has always built up contaminants over it's life and should to be replaced every few years. People didn't do it as much because people don't think of things like that, but with growing safety consciousness and testing the dealers and mechanics are recommending the service not only to help keep people safer but also as another source of income.

If you are looking at what to use, I use other Motul brand stuff that is rated higher, but you probably dont need the more expensive one so this would be good:
http://www.amazon.com/Motul-DOT-5-1-Bra ... ds=Dot+5.1

[ezb57e]

Show me in the 90s and earlier manuals where Nissan recommended a brake fluid change. It was NEVER a scheduled service until recently.
So the engineers at the factory "don't think of things like that"?
What do they know, huh?
Certainly there aren't situations where it's is called for, but it is often oversold as is a lot of periodic maintenance.
A LOT of cars worked fine for decades without brake fluid changes.
"Another source of income", now we're getting to the truth.

[Double E]

And no...the dealer is not your only option. You could even go to Nissan to do it or a local mechanic.

[EniGmA1987]

Dang. So hostile. I never said the engineers dont think of things like that, I said people dont, as in the owners and such.

[TDot]

Is there a reason people go to the dealer instead of bleeding it yourself? Is something special done in a "flush" that I'm unaware of?

[EniGmA1987]

Nope nothing special done. I think most people just dont know how to do it or dont want to take the time to do it themselves.

[szh]

Nope nothing special done. I think most people just dont know how to do it or dont want to take the time to do it themselves.

Yup! My reason is the time and effort ... well worth paying somebody else to do it for me.

Z

[szh]

Show me in the 90s and earlier manuals where Nissan recommended a brake fluid change. It was NEVER a scheduled service until recently.
So the engineers at the factory "don't think of things like that"?
What do they know, huh?
Certainly there aren't situations where it's is called for, but it is often oversold as is a lot of periodic maintenance.
A LOT of cars worked fine for decades without brake fluid changes.
"Another source of income", now we're getting to the truth.

Yeah, well, the manuals don't tell you a lot of things that should be done for regular maintenance ... changing brake fluid is one of them.

For example, the standard auto manuals don't tell you to replace brake rotors and pads either, but we all know this is something that is needed periodically with mileage.

Maybe old car manuals did not emphasize/mention brake fluid changes, but we all knew to do so (I am old enough to say that with conviction! ) ...

Yes, we have moved from an era when people either relied on dealerships or a good local mechanic/shop to do the right things (or took care of their own cars much better) "for decades".

Having worked with automotive engineers at some companies now, I can assure you that they assume some of the extra maintenance not mentioned will be managed by the dealers and other shops.

Anyway, in my case, I'd rather make sure that my brakes are operating optimally. When I want to stop, I want to stop as best as I can, with clean fluid, balanced rotors and adequate pad material ... too dangerous otherwise.

Z

[svard75]

I also always remember my dad having his cars brake fluid changed even on his 70s drum brake cars. There are also others who haven't changed it in 10+ years. I wouldn't want to be sitting next to them as they barrel down a road in a heavy old car with failed brakes due to broken or leaky seals due to rust.

[szh]

I also always remember my dad having his cars brake fluid changed even on his 70s drum brake cars.

Yup!

There are also others who haven't changed it in 10+ years. I wouldn't want to be sitting next to them as they barrel down a road in a heavy old car with failed brakes due to broken or leaky seals due to rust.

Exactly right! Or in front of them too, but that is much harder to figure out ... until you see the panic in their eyes (and in yours!) as they screech to a halt behind you due to poor brakes.

Z

[The00Dustin]

I have a great uncle who died in the military long before I was born. When he had just gotten his license in the 60's (or maybe even the 50's), he snuck out and borrowed his parents car. He was only caught because when he went to park it in the garage, the brake pedal just went to the floor, so the car went to the wall. Apparently brakes "just going out" was a lot more common back then. I hear "brake fluid wasn't as good back then" but I suspect it also wasn't changed in that instance. On a separate note, his brother (my grandfather), who is still alive, bought a brand new Harley Davidson in 1971 that he was still driving until he couldn't hold it up anymore, and I've seen the brake fluid in those changed more than once. Finally, I'm pretty sure my 2006 M45 manual doesn't mention brake fluid changes, but I could be wrong on that one. Either way, it certainly benefits from them, and it quite possibly hurt it when it didn't get one for too long (had to have something in the master cylinder replaced when I had brake problems after it was flushed by the dealer).

[Larz]

Here is my take on this:
The manuals don't put brake fluid in the Scheduled maintenance section because it isn't done on any specific schedule. The manual, DOES, however tell you to have the brake system checked per the schedule. That brake system check includes checking the fluid so the tech can tell you when it needs changing. The manual, like the rest of us, considers this part of brake inspection. Same for the power steering fluid - when you have the power steering inspected on the maintenance chart, that includes fluid inspection as well. There is no such thing as lifetime lasting brake or power steering fluid and there never was. Lubricants of this type break down from use and adversely affect the performance of whatever they are lubricating.

[svard75]

Show me in the 90s and earlier manuals where Nissan recommended a brake fluid change....

You could be right, however I am going to guess that in today's overly litigated world manufacturers in all areas have started to really add more information and details to their manuals. My dad's ASE master mechanic was the guy that always suggested a brake fluid flush so that is where he learned to perform them. I remember my dad's 82 Volvo DL manual was about 1/3rd the size of our Infiniti manuals (That plus we have much more technology that requires programming etc.)

[ezb57e]

Show me in the 90s and earlier manuals where Nissan recommended a brake fluid change. It was NEVER a scheduled service until recently.
So the engineers at the factory "don't think of things like that"?
What do they know, huh?
Certainly there aren't situations where it's is called for, but it is often oversold as is a lot of periodic maintenance.
A LOT of cars worked fine for decades without brake fluid changes.
"Another source of income", now we're getting to the truth.

Yeah, well, the manuals don't tell you a lot of things that should be done for regular maintenance ... changing brake fluid is one of them.

For example, the standard auto manuals don't tell you to replace brake rotors and pads either, but we all know this is something that is needed periodically with mileage.
Maybe old car manuals did not emphasize/mention brake fluid changes, but we all knew to do so (I am old enough to say that with conviction! ) ...

Yes, we have moved from an era when people either relied on dealerships or a good local mechanic/shop to do the right things (or took care of their own cars much better) "for decades".

Having worked with automotive engineers at some companies now, I can assure you that they assume some of the extra maintenance not mentioned will be managed by the dealers and other shops.

Anyway, in my case, I'd rather make sure that my brakes are operating optimally. When I want to stop, I want to stop as best as I can, with clean fluid, balanced rotors and adequate pad material ... too dangerous otherwise.

Z

No, why would they?
But they did, and still do tell you how to inspect them to see if they need replacement.
They don't just go bad with mileage.
I'm curious about what other things do you feel are part of good maintenance that the factory doesn't address?
My point here is the difference between replacing things arbitrarily or for a clear justified reason.

[szh]

Well, I do a lot of "extra-maintenance" things to my car that are probably overkill in some ways.

I have a thread about this somewhere ... maybe a search with "overkill" and "szh" as the author will bring them up. I gotta get going home at this time, else I would look for that.

Z

[szh]

For example, the standard auto manuals don't tell you to replace brake rotors and pads either, but we all know this is something that is needed periodically with mileage.

No, why would they?
But they did, and still do tell you how to inspect them to see if they need replacement.
They don't just go bad with mileage.

Well, in the last 23 years that I have owned driven an Infiniti car (around 375k to 400k miles in three cars so far), I can tell you that my OEMs pads have worn down in just about the same mileage (albeit different for each model - the two Q45's were close together and the M45 is a bit different) plus or minus 10% to 15%. With rotors lasting about 3 pad changes worth, with one exception when I tried some cross-drilled, slotted ones. I didn't keep the car long enough to verify miles on that set.

Same is true for miles on the same set of tires for example. I like to stick with the same brand/model sometimes, and they usually go at about the same mileage too.

So, for me, mileage is a good measure of pad and rotor changes and tire changes!

Yet, manuals don't tell you anything about that. I suspect that you are right in that the reason probably has a lot to do with the fact that these changes would be different mileage for each model of tire, pad, etc., so no point in making them "standard" in the owner's manual.

Another example of a crazy thing I do - which no manual talks about, except for Mercedes, afaik: An early oil and filter change or two when the engine is new. I am a believer in doing the first oil and filter change within the first few hundred to five hundred miles, followed by another one around 1750 miles or so before going into a normal OCI interval.

Reason is that I want to remove all the metal particles that debur during break-in. This may well not be needed for all engines - particularly ones that are run for some number of miles by the factory in modern cars, but it ain't going to hurt anything except my wallet a bit! I also change the transmission fluid and gear oil within the first 10k to 15k miles ... for the same reason.

Yes, all this this may be overkill, and it certainly is not mentioned in the manuals (with the Mercedes exception).

Z

[svard75]

Lol from brake fluid to brakes to engine oil changes. Nice segway. Just my 2cents worth on your OCI issues. Engine break-ins are super controversial. Ive read articles that driving the engine hard for the first 20 minutes is necessary to properly seat the piston rings, to following the manual, to not necessary at all. In all cases they agree that an early oil change is mandatory at around 1500miles.

[szh]

Lol from brake fluid to brakes to engine oil changes. Nice segway.

Thread has drifted a bit, yes.

Just my 2cents worth on your OCI issues. Engine break-ins are super controversial. Ive read articles that driving the engine hard for the first 20 minutes is necessary to properly seat the piston rings, to following the manual, to not necessary at all. In all cases they agree that an early oil change is mandatory at around 1500miles.

I read about that driving hard proposal too ... the difference was that what I read was to avoid babying the engine at a consistent rpm.

The recommendation was hard rev'ing (WOT's) to allow the pistons to minutely go past their normal physical operating positions. Essentially deburring the cylinder walls a teensy bit past where the pistons normally operate to. I have no clue whether this actually works or not, but I did do it to my M45. No harm done as far as I can tell.

Z

[illitero]

Show me in the 90s and earlier manuals where Nissan recommended a brake fluid change. It was NEVER a scheduled service until recently.
So the engineers at the factory "don't think of things like that"?
What do they know, huh?
Certainly there aren't situations where it's is called for, but it is often oversold as is a lot of periodic maintenance.
A LOT of cars worked fine for decades without brake fluid changes.
"Another source of income", now we're getting to the truth.

The great thing about knowledge is that it's constantly evolving based on ever-increasing improvements and discoveries. The medical field immediately comes to mind... While there's also absolutely no doubt it is yet another ploy to try and glean more money from customers, I can see the validity in it. The integrity of just about all fluids in a mechanical system are due their appropriate maintenance over time. They can break down or become contaminated. It happens. Don't forget that the brake system isn't exactly sealed past the reservoir, meaning that moisture and particles can come in through the cap for one reason or another; thus introduction into the entire system. There are PLENTY of cars that have worked perfectly fine without fluid maintenance. I had an '07 Focus that did 63k miles before I forced myself to do an oil change. So in conclusion: chill out and stop fighting people that prefer to be thorough in their maintenance. Nothing's a guarantee, but there's no harm in trying.

[DS2009m35x]

I've always changed brake fluid in my cars as other's have said due to water absorption and contaminant build up in the brake fluid. Esp nasty when you retract the caliper while doing a brake job. It's an easy job and I believe can save $ by lengthening the life of your calipers. On my SAABs, I had a Motive pressurized dispenser that screwed onto the MC. This made a one-person job very easy. Unfortunately the MC cap didn't fit the M so I had to resort to the two person method.