best way to tap oil return without removing oil pan

[ftrs13]

I know that the best way to drill into the oil pan is to remove it first, but I was curious what the best way to do it while the pan is still on the car?I also know that the bearing housing is right behind the wall of the pan, how much space do I have to play with between the oil pan and that piece?

any pictures that you might have of a finished one would be helpful, if you have any kicking around

ThanksSteve

[Tictakman]

dude just take off the oil pan. if those shavings get into the engine then you will have a lot bigger problem on your hands. just unbolt the engine mounts, take off sway bar and jack up the front if the engine. not too hard to do.

Zak

[PMan_S13]

Yeah, if you are worried about just taking off the oil pan you might want to either find someone to help you or seriously reconsider turbocharging your car. There are a lot of things that are worse than taking off an oil pan...

[ftrs13]

well, everything else is pretty much done, I know its not the best thing to do, but its just been giving me such a headache. the worst reason right?? and Im just running out of time, thats the worst part. being stressed for time isnt a good way to finish off a job such as this

[LongIsland240]

I was curious what the best way to do it while the pan is still on the car?

There isn't a good way to do it. I'm sure a few people here may even say they have done it and it worked out ok...but I would never risk engine damage over something so easy to do right. If you have everything else done already and you did all that by yourself, this should be easy. It'll take you 3-4 hours tops, and well worth the extra peace of mind. IMO

[daniel240]

i did mine w/ out taking it off and it worked fine, i changed my oil twice and there isnt a speck of metal. search the forums there is a recent thread on how to do this.

[ftrs13]

I think I have decided to remove it, the next question that goes along with this is how to remove the oil pickup? because Ive read that must be removed before the pan can slide forward out of the bay.

[spitz7985]

when you have the engine jacked up and the oil pan unbolted, there will be plenty of room in there to unbolt the pickup.

when i took off my oil pan, i only had to unbolt on mount (the passenger side is a lot easier to get a wrench on) and used a floor jack to raise the engine up an inch or two. also, you don't need to completely unbolt the sway bar. you can leave the endlinks connected. it's really not a hard job.

[PMan_S13]

The real fun part is trying to get that oil pickup back in..

[ftrs13]

thanks guys, its all finished, and quite nice

[240marcuSX]

is it absolutely neccessary to mess with the sway bar at all? or does it just give you a bit more room, because if at all possible id want to not even mess with my front sway bar. thanks.

[ftrs13]

that is the easiest part, just take off 2 bolts from each side, and it hangs there giving the extra 3 or 4" that the pan needs to get out

I wouldnt be afraid of the sway bar, its not a problem

[MikeMurphy]

You can grab a part that sits between the clock and the oil filter and it allows you to reroute some of the oil w/o tapping into pan. I did a quick search but cant seem to find it again. I know they exist.

[j-z]

thats for use with an oil feed. you cant return oil there, it has to go to the pan. i know on some of the miata kits they tap the dipstick tube for the return line so you dont have to tap the pan. i dont know if this will work on the 240 cause i havent had a chance to check it out.

[ftrs13]

the hole to return is way too small

[brage]

The f-max kit instructions suggest the fastest way to get the oil return done is to center punch a hole in the oil pan and then tap it w/ a 3/8" NPT tap. You can then thread in a 3/8" brass hose barb. This is how I am running right now. A major issue is that you must center punch the pan below the oil level to avoid hitting the pickup. This is generally considered to be a bad thing by most folks (including myself) I view my setup as temporary, but again I have not experienced ANY problems with it.

The basic laws of physics keep the oil flowing, IE as additional oil is added to the return line the oil level in the pan equalizes itself with the level in the return line because of gravity.

When I drop in my built motor in the next 8-10 months I will have an AN fitting welded to the pan and use a SS return line from the turbo.

Right now I just have a hose barb on the turbo oil outlet and on the oil pan with heater hose running between.

I have not experienced any problems with this setup.

BTW most aftermarket supercharger, etc kits suggest centerpunching the oil pan ABOVE THE OIL LINE.

I don't think you can center punch the KA pan above the oil line without hitting something.

Edit: I found my F-Max instructions, I'll post what they said...

[MikeMurphy]

the hole to return is way too small

Depending on how small it is, its a good thing. Some people put blocks in their return line anyhow to up the oil pressure in the turbo anyhow. Im no pro at this stuff though.

[IvoryJ30t]

actually, as long as the turbo itself is above the oil line you can tap the return at the bottom of the pan and it will still drain. it makes no difference.

if you dont believe me, heres a little test.

fill your bathtub with water. get a beer bong and a gallon container. fill the container with water.

hold the end of the beer bong's hose above the waterline of the tub, and pour the water from the container into the funnel.

ok, now refill the container. put the end of the hose at the bottom of the tub without plugging it against the bottom of the tub. pour the water into the funnel.

any difference? i didnt think so...

[brage]

actually, as long as the turbo itself is above the oil line you can tap the return at the bottom of the pan and it will still drain. it makes no difference.

if you dont believe me, heres a little test.

fill your bathtub with water. get a beer bong and a gallon container. fill the container with water.

hold the end of the beer bong's hose above the waterline of the tub, and pour the water from the container into the funnel.

ok, now refill the container. put the end of the hose at the bottom of the tub without plugging it against the bottom of the tub. pour the water into the funnel.

any difference? i didnt think so...

yeah... basic fluid dynamics eh

[IvoryJ30t]

yeah. im giving the high school physics kids an excuse to bring a beer bong to school.

i was expecting someone who know their physics to chime in on this one sooner. its painful to see people belive the placement of the return tap has any bearing on the oil flow back to the pan.

[brage]

yeah. im giving the high school physics kids an excuse to bring a beer bong to school.

i was expecting someone who know their physics to chime in on this one sooner. its painful to see people belive the placement of the return tap has any bearing on the oil flow back to the pan.

I still don't like the idea of oil sitting in the heater hose all the time

[IvoryJ30t]

heater hose?

[IvoryJ30t]

if the return hose can handle the hot oil comming out of the turbo, the the little bit of oil that backs up into it wont hurt.

the only down side is that if the hose comes off, the oil will drain out to the level of the tap.

but if the hose comes off, your gonna have oil spraying out of the return hose anyway if its running.

[MikeMurphy]

I was under the impression that there should be oil pressure in the turbo, not just a very wimply flow by the opper tap through the turbo down to the lower tap. No pressure sounds like a oil coking party to me.

[IvoryJ30t]

what the hell are you talking about?

we failing to realize that the "upper tap" is to an oil gallery that is being fed by the oil pump?

the oil doesnt magically rise out of the pan and flow through the turbo.

the whole point of this conversation is that once the oil is fed to the turbo, its up to gravity to drain the hot oil back to the pan.

[PMan_S13]

If any of you have taken apart a turbo you will see why you want the return line to be high flowing...

The oil seals on a turbo are not designed to withstand any real pressure. This is why any backing up in the return will cause smoking; the pressure is forcing the oil past the seals and into the downpipe.

Gravity does have it's part in returning the oil. But the incoming oil will also force the old oil out. So you can see why having less back pressure is always a better choice.

[AceInhole]

i was expecting someone who know their physics to chime in on this one sooner. its painful to see people belive the placement of the return tap has any bearing on the oil flow back to the pan.

the placement of the tap has everything to do with oil flow back into the pan. oil doesn't really "flow" through the return line. by the time it exits the turbo, it's more of a foam than a liquid. oil in "foam" form being lighter than oil in liquid form, will end up backing up the return line increasing backpressure on the turbo.

As previously stated, turbo center sections do NOT want to see backpressure on the return side. turbo bearing sections don't really like high pressure at all. I think Maximum Boost recommends 25psi as a max pressure for a turbo, less than half of what your engine is doing above 3k rpm.

[brage]

f-max stuffs:

[j-z]

yup and thats why they make oil restictors for the oil feed. im gonna use one on my ka setup. i learned this the hard way. on the lude when i had the motor built i had the turbo rebuilt too. i ran a -3 feed line to the turbo but with no restrictor. the turbo was fine until i went on a 2 hour road trip to gainseville at a constant 90 mph. 90 mph in 5th in that thing was like 4k rpm so the oil pressure was way up there. once i made it there i stopped to meet with other luders (i was going there for a prelude meet). with my car idling still for about 5 mins i went to drive off and a **** load of blue smoke just poured out everywhere. i was running a -12 return line that went straight into the pan. too much pressure just ate it up.

[IvoryJ30t]

the placement of the tap has everything to do with oil flow back into the pan. oil doesn't really "flow" through the return line. by the time it exits the turbo, it's more of a foam than a liquid. oil in "foam" form being lighter than oil in liquid form, will end up backing up the return line increasing backpressure on the turbo.

As previously stated, turbo center sections do NOT want to see backpressure on the return side. turbo bearing sections don't really like high pressure at all. I think Maximum Boost recommends 25psi as a max pressure for a turbo, less than half of what your engine is doing above 3k rpm.

i know it comes out of the turbo as a foamy froth, but the pressure of the incoming oil is more than enough to over come the weight of the two inches or so of oil the return tap is submerged in.

if the addition of 0.1 psi of pressure to the bearing housing is enough to blow the seals, you have a problem.