Best performance exhaust manifold/headers

[Valdis]

I'm currently looking at getting MSP exhaust manifolds but wanted to know what other options are out there. The MSP's are $700 and I'm not sure if spending $700 for 10-15hp is worth it. Though I don't want to buy headers for $200 just to have them crack on me in a few months. I've heard mention of Stillen exhaust manifolds/headers but I can't find a place that sells them (I don't even know if they are still being made)
I don't want to go with anything off of ebay (megan racing), unless there's a hidden gem out there that I'm not aware of.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Z-owned]

MSP's are your best bet for reliability and performance. gains will depend on your other mod's but they are worth it. AMS also sells some claiming better flow but they are just cheap chinese junk knock off's of the msp's and should be avoided.

[Valdis]

MSP's are your best bet for reliability and performance. gains will depend on your other mod's but they are worth it. AMS also sells some claiming better flow but they are just cheap chinese junk knock off's of the msp's and should be avoided.

Thanks, that's what I thought... just wanted to make sure.

[300ZXttZMAN]

MSP or ported stock. IMHO everything else is useless.

[Z-owned]

I would advise against porting the stock ones, there is a local guy out here that used to do them for people but they get so thin that they crack and they never were as good as msp's to begin with.

[BigTDogg (MA)]

Valdis, also know that the MSPs may only boost your peak HP by a 10 -15 HP mark, but what they do really well is move your curve to the left, so your spool up happens at lower RPM. That's the biggest advantage to getting them.

BTW, mine were $1K when I got them, and I'd do it all again at that price. Car is very, very street friendly.

[skywhine]

Curious as to what reduction in lag you saw with the MSP's? Stock or aftermarket turbos?

I ask as back in highschool i had a turbo Mr2 that started stock. Turbo would start spooling around 2200rpm and hit full boost around 3500-4000rpm. Then i added an equal length manifold and 3" turbo back straight pipe. Turbo then started spooling around 1200rpm and 20 psi at around 3000rpm. This on stock turbo, stock engine and IC. Not the wisest choice i ever made but at the time i was pleased.

Im curious because i plan on purhasing 550bb kit to compliment the nismo injectors i just bought and my engine builder asked if i was getting manifolds too? If im going to do it i should do it right.

Im building a drift car, so i dont need every last ounce of power, i just need about 500 wheel that is also useable power and not ALL top end, hence why ive decided against 272+ duration cams. Also ive come to the conclusion that nico members are a bit biased towards the MSP's, and no offence-i wouldn'd even consider the knock offs. But are they going to be necassary for my build. Or would the stockers do just fine? If im only going to see a 500 rpm reduction in lag, i might save that $700. Or if it actualy makes a durastic change like on my mr2, id be inclined to purchase them. I guess the determining factor would be lag reduction.

Sorry if that last bit seemed rude, not my intention. Any experiance will be greatly appriciated.

[Valdis]

Valdis, also know that the MSPs may only boost your peak HP by a 10 -15 HP mark, but what they do really well is move your curve to the left, so your spool up happens at lower RPM. That's the biggest advantage to getting them.

BTW, mine were $1K when I got them, and I'd do it all again at that price. Car is very, very street friendly.

Awesome, I did not know that. Only had my 300zx since November so I don't know much at all.
Anything that will help my turbos spool quicker is a winner, IMO.

How about port matching? Did you have to modify the ports on the engine to match that of the MSP manifolds? I'm also interested in knowing how much it lowers spool up time.

Thanks.

[300ZXttZMAN]

I would advise against porting the stock ones, there is a local guy out here that used to do them for people but they get so thin that they crack and they never were as good as msp's to begin with.

Hmm interesting I have heard of people porting them and not running into any problems.. Naturally they will never perform like MSP's.

OP, the MSP manifolds are well worth it.. They are truly an OEM fit.

[BigTDogg (MA)]

Curious as to what reduction in lag you saw with the MSP's? Stock or aftermarket turbos?
Sorry if that last bit seemed rude, not my intention. Any experience will be greatly appreciated.

No you're fine The problem with this mod is that not many people do a proper scientific experiment. The labor involved with a turbo replacement on these cars is so significant that only 1 or two people have ever done a true apples to apples comparison. That is to say that they removed the engine and replaced ONLY the manifolds. A better comparator is look at cars with upgraded turbos with and without the MSPs. You'll notice that those with spool roughly 500-700 RPM sooner than those without.

Below is my graph showing my 91 TT with Stage III mods + SZ Regular split DP + TP and Z1 SMICs at 11 PSI. Stock manifolds. Overlaid on that is my 90TT with MSP manifolds, Sport 500 turbos, SZ 3" expansion DPs and a bunch of other mods. Both with a bone stock engine (actually the 91 only had 91 PSI compression in cyl #1). I did not port match the heads when I installed the MSPs because my engine was not apart. Previous owner had the heads rebuilt 30K before my engine pull, so I figured if it ain't broke don't fix it. That and my budget told me I couldn't go with a ton of engine work.



As you can see, my spool is nearly identical to stock, but I'm using larger turbos. Compare this curve to other Sport 500 dynos and you'll find that there is more power earlier. This isn't only due to the MSPs thought, as I said it's hard to find an apples to apples comparison. I also added a Selin dual MAF translator kit, the Expansion DPs are much better than their previous generation Y splits, and I also went to 3" test pipes. The benefit is definitely there though.

[Awesome, I did not know that. Only had my 300zx since November so I don't know much at all.
Anything that will help my turbos spool quicker is a winner, IMO.

You're on a great forum to get your learn on

My two cents is as follows; If you're replacing your turbos, get the MSPs as a "while you're in there upgrade". If you're thinking of just replacing your manifolds, it may not be worth it to you. If you're doing an engine build and getting new turbos, get the heads port matched to the MSPs. If you're doing an engine build and don't get MSPs, you've spent your money foolishly elsewhere.

[Valdis]

My two cents is as follows; If you're replacing your turbos, get the MSPs as a "while you're in there upgrade". If you're thinking of just replacing your manifolds, it may not be worth it to you. If you're doing an engine build and getting new turbos, get the heads port matched to the MSPs. If you're doing an engine build and don't get MSPs, you've spent your money foolishly elsewhere.

I'm not doing an entire engine build but it's going to be a big and very expensive job.
JWT 500 "wild cams" or the JWT 400+ , they are the same price so might as well go with the more aggressive.
JWT valve springs
MSP Exhaust Manifolds... ("fit all turbos made for the Z32 T2 flange")
Replacing all my 2.5" exhaust pipes with 3".. DP's, TP's and exhaust
550 or 740 injectors (most likely going with the 740's, better to have too much than not enough )... (I don't need to change the fuel rail to a 300 degree rail since I have a '96 do I ??)... I always thought '96's already had the 300 degree fuel rail, but I don't know much so I'm probably wrong.
SMIC's either Z1's or Massives, I'll probably go with the Z1's to save $$
Just got my new boost controller in the mail today... guess I'll want a turbo timer so I don't blow stuff up.
TURBOS.... (GT600R's, maybe?) I have no idea what I'm going to get, need to do a bunch of research and educate myself. I need "T2 Flange" turbos because that is what MSP connect to... so at least that will narrow my search down.
Oh yeah, and the never avoidable ECU flash.

So yeah, since I'll have my engine out to replace the Cams.. I'll have a bunch of other stuff done while it's out.

[skywhine]

Thanks TDogg. For now ill look into porting the stock manifolds and purchase the msp's in the future when i re build the heads with solid lifters and cams, proably port and polish the heads as well. Seems the stockers ported should do fine for the amerater local series, if i ever do pro-am then ill build the heads and get msp's.

[bartZ32tt]

No, you definitely don't need 300* rail - it's said to flow more but I couldn't justify the expense personally. Although it'd be cleaner to use AN fittings, the stock rail will do just fine.

Turbos - definitely depends what your goals are. Set a very specific goal for yourself so that your budget/build stays on track. I have already learned this lesson myself - I am considering selling a few parts that I bought in the past simply because my goals have changed since the time I bought them. (I'll send you a PM about this btw).

Turbo timer - if you're on a tight budget, you may consider skipping this (you can always add one later). Yea, it's more convenient but it's not crucial - the alternative is to just sit in your car idling for an extra min for cool-down after a boosted run, but upgraded intercoolers/oil cooler will help with this also.

The only thing I will say about the MSP manifolds is this: if you don't get those while the engine is out, it better be because you're getting a 2.5" planar inlet pipe kit with Selin translator. That's the only performance-oriented bolt-on mod that I consider a justifyable alternative for while the engine is out. Or even better - do both!

[BigTDogg (MA)]

JWT 500 "wild cams" or the JWT 400+ , they are the same price so might as well go with the more aggressive.

Talk to Kyle at Import Parts Pro or Greg at SpecialtyZ about this. May not always be better to go more aggressive, especially if you're not ported to flow more.

JWT valve springs
MSP Exhaust Manifolds... ("fit all turbos made for the Z32 T2 flange"). TURBOS.... (GT600R's, maybe?) I have no idea what I'm going to get, need to do a bunch of research and educate myself. I need "T2 Flange" turbos because that is what MSP connect to... so at least that will narrow my search down.

Sure, a little bit. There are still about 30 options . Personally I suggest the JWT Sport 550, as it's one of the best street turbos available right now. http://www.importpartspro.com/jwtsp55tuup9.html

Replacing all my 2.5" exhaust pipes with 3".. DP's, TP's and exhaust
550 or 740 injectors (most likely going with the 740's, better to have too much than not enough )... (I don't need to change the fuel rail to a 300 degree rail since I have a '96 do I ??)... I always thought '96's already had the 300 degree fuel rail, but I don't know much so I'm probably wrong.

95 and 96 TTs had the phase two or "new style" rails which accommodate the newer injectors. The 300° rail is an improvement over those as well, but you do not need the 300° rail to fit new style 740s.

SMIC's either Z1's or Massives, I'll probably go with the Z1's to save $$

I run the Z1 SMIC and they're great units. If you're not upgrading the IC pipes to 2.5" yet, I'd say they're ideal. When you upgrade the IC pipes and throttle bodies to 2.5", then you should get the Massives.

Just got my new boost controller in the mail today... guess I'll want a turbo timer so I don't blow stuff up.

A turbo timer is nice to have, but definitely not needed. Just don't run your car hard for the last few minutes of your drive and you'll be fine.

Oh yeah, and the never avoidable ECU flash.

This may prove to be your toughest issue, especially if you have emissions OBDII testing in your state. This is the Achilles heel of the 96TT. When calling Greg or Kyle for engine advice, be sure to mention you have a 96. I'd contact SpecialtyZ about their off-the-shelf EPROMs. That'll get you started, but what you really want is a custom dyno tune from SZ or Ztuner. That'll get you the most out of your upgrades. Significant changes over an OTS chip/EPROM.

So yeah, since I'll have my engine out to replace the Cams.. I'll have a bunch of other stuff done while it's out.[/quote]

May want to look into replacing your main EFI harness while you're in there. Wiring Specialties makes a good one. Also might I suggest some silicone heater core hoses from Z1. Buy them once and never have to replace them again.

Lastly, I'd suggest calling Specialty Z when you order the exhaust stuff. If you were to get the exhaust and other items, perhaps turbos or injectors or everything from them, I'm sure they'd work out a package deal for you.

Hope that helps

[Valdis]

Talk to Kyle at Import Parts Pro or Greg at SpecialtyZ about this. May not always be better to go more aggressive, especially if you're not ported to flow more.

When I spoke with Greg he suggested the JW 500 cams. I'll be sure to bring this up with him again to make sure.
As far as exhaust, with my goal of 500-550whp would 2.5" work or do I need 3"? How about 3" down pipes, a 3" to 2.5" test pipe and 2.5" exhaust (I ask because that would be the cheapest route for me.)

Sure, a little bit. There are still about 30 options . Personally I suggest the JWT Sport 550, as it's one of the best street turbos available right now. http://www.importpartspro.com/jwtsp55tuup9.html

I've been looking at those for a while now, they do look really nice and would fit the whp goal I have for my car.... ~500whp-550whp... enough to smoke my Uncles 2011 Shelby GT500 he just bought, LOL

95 and 96 TTs had the phase two or "new style" rails which accommodate the newer injectors. The 300° rail is an improvement over those as well, but you do not need the 300° rail to fit new style 740s.

AMEN, less money

I run the Z1 SMIC and they're great units. If you're not upgrading the IC pipes to 2.5" yet, I'd say they're ideal. When you upgrade the IC pipes and throttle bodies to 2.5", then you should get the Massives.

I was looking at Z1's or Stillen... how do AVS SMIC's compare to those? When I spoke with Greg he suggested a FMIC, my local performance shop also suggested the FMIC. I'm not too keen on going with something that blocks the radiator... I've found people also saying that you don't need a FMIC unless you plan on going BIG power.
If I want to change to Massive intercoolers in the future, I can change all the needed hoses without pulling the engine, right? My IC pipes have been upgraded, they are metal not rubber... I'll get a picture up.

A turbo timer is nice to have, but definitely not needed. Just don't run your car hard for the last few minutes of your drive and you'll be fine.

Sounds like a plan

[This may prove to be your toughest issue, especially if you have emissions OBDII testing in your state. This is the Achilles heel of the 96TT. When calling Greg or Kyle for engine advice, be sure to mention you have a 96. I'd contact SpecialtyZ about their off-the-shelf EPROMs. That'll get you started, but what you really want is a custom dyno tune from SZ or Ztuner. That'll get you the most out of your upgrades. Significant changes over an OTS chip/EPROM.

I live in Kansas and we have NO emissions testing, FTW!! So are you saying I'll need to ship my car to SZ or Ztuner? I could do that if it's needed. We have a local dyno, but I'm sure the companies you mentioned would do a better job with a Z32.

May want to look into replacing your main EFI harness while you're in there. Wiring Specialties makes a good one. Also might I suggest some silicone heater core hoses from Z1. Buy them once and never have to replace them again.

That never crossed my mind... don't even know what a EFI harness is. I'll have to look into that. I'll also check into the hoses.

[Lastly, I'd suggest calling Specialty Z when you order the exhaust stuff. If you were to get the exhaust and other items, perhaps turbos or injectors or everything from them, I'm sure they'd work out a package deal for you.

Yes, when I spoke to Greg he mentioned getting me a package deal.
Thank you for all the input, it helps a ton.

No, you definitely don't need 300* rail - it's said to flow more but I couldn't justify the expense personally. Although it'd be cleaner to use AN fittings, the stock rail will do just fine.

Turbos - definitely depends what your goals are. Set a very specific goal for yourself so that your budget/build stays on track. I have already learned this lesson myself - I am considering selling a few parts that I bought in the past simply because my goals have changed since the time I bought them. (I'll send you a PM about this btw).

Turbo timer - if you're on a tight budget, you may consider skipping this (you can always add one later). Yea, it's more convenient but it's not crucial - the alternative is to just sit in your car idling for an extra min for cool-down after a boosted run, but upgraded intercoolers/oil cooler will help with this also.

The only thing I will say about the MSP manifolds is this: if you don't get those while the engine is out, it better be because you're getting a 2.5" planar inlet pipe kit with Selin translator. That's the only performance-oriented bolt-on mod that I consider a justifyable alternative for while the engine is out. Or even better - do both!

Thanks for the concurrence about the fuel rail, saves me a headache.
Turbos... Goal is 500-550whp, the JWT Sport 550 are looking really good. They do have a T2 flange right? They need to be compatible with the MSP manifolds.
"2.5" planar inlet pipe kit with Selin translator" ... NOOO idea what that is, google search in my near future.

Thank you both for the input!!

[BigTDogg (MA)]

When I spoke with Greg he suggested the JW 500 cams. I'll be sure to bring this up with him again to make sure.
As far as exhaust, with my goal of 500-550whp would 2.5" work or do I need 3"? How about 3" down pipes, a 3" to 2.5" test pipe and 2.5" exhaust (I ask because that would be the cheapest route for me.)
I've been looking at those for a while now, they do look really nice and would fit the whp goal I have for my car.... ~500whp-550whp... enough to smoke my Uncles 2011 Shelby GT500 he just bought, LOL

I was looking at Z1's or Stillen... how do AVS SMIC's compare to those? When I spoke with Greg he suggested a FMIC, my local performance shop also suggested the FMIC. I'm not too keen on going with something that blocks the radiator... I've found people also saying that you don't need a FMIC unless you plan on going BIG power.
If I want to change to Massive intercoolers in the future, I can change all the needed hoses without pulling the engine, right? My IC pipes have been upgraded, they are metal not rubber... I'll get a picture up.

I live in Kansas and we have NO emissions testing, FTW!! So are you saying I'll need to ship my car to SZ or Ztuner? I could do that if it's needed. We have a local dyno, but I'm sure the companies you mentioned would do a better job with a Z32.

That never crossed my mind... don't even know what a EFI harness is. I'll have to look into that. I'll also check into the hoses.

Yes, when I spoke to Greg he mentioned getting me a package deal.

Thank you for all the input, it helps a ton.

If Greg suggested those cams he knows better than I do.

3" Expansions downpipes -> 3" to 2.5" test pipes -> 2.5" HKS Turbo Exhaust (not the ricey HiPer) is what I have. As long as you don't have a Stillen or Borla exhaust this would be fine for your power goals.

Don't get an FMIC. Unless you get an HKS FMIC or a T0M's TDM works FMIC, you're getting garbage. Greg runs a T0M's FMIC on his beast. AVS ICs are junk, Chinese knock-offs of the Z1 SMICs.

The rubber IC hoses aren't what I'm talking about. This is what I'm talking about:

http://www.ashspecz.com/shop/prodInfo2.php?prodID=18 Greg sells that set, along with his expansion turbo outlet pipes.

Greg and Seb (Specialty Z) fly all over the country and Canada during the year doing Dyno Days set up by local Z owners. As Greg where he plans on traveling this year, and if it's within a couple of hours, it's worth the drive. Harry (Ztunerz.com) is also an excellent tuner with great experience with our cars.

The EFI harness is the main engine harness which connects your ECU to everything in the engine bay. It goes for about $400, but it lasts 20 years. Chances are your current connectors are brittle and cracking, and possibly corroding.

Replace anything that's rubber on the engine. Hoses, gaskets etc. Preventative maintenance goes a long way in these cars.

[Valdis]

If Greg suggested those cams he knows better than I do.

3" Expansions downpipes -> 3" to 2.5" test pipes -> 2.5" HKS Turbo Exhaust (not the ricey HiPer) is what I have. As long as you don't have a Stillen or Borla exhaust this would be fine for your power goals.

Don't get an FMIC. Unless you get an HKS FMIC or a T0M's TDM works FMIC, you're getting garbage. Greg runs a T0M's FMIC on his beast. AVS ICs are junk, Chinese knock-offs of the Z1 SMICs.

The rubber IC hoses aren't what I'm talking about. This is what I'm talking about:

http://www.ashspecz.com/shop/prodInfo2.php?prodID=18 Greg sells that set, along with his expansion turbo outlet pipes.

Greg and Seb (Specialty Z) fly all over the country and Canada during the year doing Dyno Days set up by local Z owners. As Greg where he plans on traveling this year, and if it's within a couple of hours, it's worth the drive. Harry (Ztunerz.com) is also an excellent tuner with great experience with our cars.

The EFI harness is the main engine harness which connects your ECU to everything in the engine bay. It goes for about $400, but it lasts 20 years. Chances are your current connectors are brittle and cracking, and possibly corroding.

Replace anything that's rubber on the engine. Hoses, gaskets etc. Preventative maintenance goes a long way in these cars.

Added an EFI harness to my list

As far as intercoolers, would you suggest Z1 or Stillen? I read an article and it showed that both had pretty much the same flow rate but the Z1 had less boost presssure lost.

Added 3" down pipes and 3" to 2.5" test pipes to my list... my current exhaust is made by Turbo Tuff and when I looked it up, I didn't find much on them. I found one thread that said the pipes were 2.25" but I went out and measured the pipes, they are 2.5' when measured from the outside of the pipe.

I was looking at 2.5" catbacks and such and I'm not sure what to look for, I don't know which brands are good or bad or if I should even be looking at catback exhausts.

Those pipes http://www.ashspecz.com/shop/prodInfo2.php?prodID=18 look like a good investment, expensive but I think it will help a bunch with airflow... will getting those pipes allow me to get the Massive IC's? If it will allow the Massives then I have another decision to make.. lol

As far as Greg and Dyno Days... they are having a Z Dyno Day in Kansas City in a couple of months, not sure if Greg will be there or not. I'll call and ask.
http://www.the370z.com/mid-western-regi ... -dash.html

Thanks

UPDATE::
I called Greg today and he said that they would be in New York at the end of this month and in St. Louis in April.
Also, Greg suggested JWT Sport 700s instead of the 550's.. since I'll be using pump gas.
He also told me that 3" down pipes -> 3" to 2.5" test pipes -> 2.5" exhaust would work for the amount of power I'm wanting. He said that performance would only be effected slightly when above 6K rpm.
I also asked about lag of the larger 700's and was told that with the new piping, cams and the MSP manifolds they would spool faster than stock turbos
I asked about the off-the-shelf eprom chips and he said SZ doesn't deal with '96's because they are 16bit and are OBDII, he did say that SZ will soon have a harness that will be able to hold a '95 and '96 chip.... after that I got really confused.