beating the competition

[hannibal]

I dont even have a 240sx yet, but Ive been trying to set some goals for my KA-T project. Lately, Ive been considering how much power I would need to beat a variety of stock cars.

Most cars I would consider "fast" run a mid 13sec 1/4 mile. This includes M3/M5's, Mercedes AMG's, NSX's, C5 Vettes, 911's, and pretty much any car youre likely to meet on the street.

Then I would only have to worry about Vipers, 911 turbos, and more exotic (rare) cars. They run about a mid 12sec 1/4 mile.

So my question is, on a S14 in street trim (5 spd of course) with good tires and good driver, how much power would I need to run low 13's? This would take care of that first group. Im guessing around 260whp (300hp at the crank)...

How about the second group? I figure low 12's would handle 99% of cars on the road. How much power for low 12's?? I would say at least 320whp...

I would like to start off running with that first group of cars and then upgrade my setup to hang with the big boys when I grow the balls. What do yall think??

Jay

PLEASE dont flame me. I know this type of question is asked a lot, but I'm more concerned with hanging with Vettes and Vipers than running a low 1/4 mile time.

[WDRacing]

For Vettes and Vipers your going to need 400+ to the wheels my friend. They're useable torque curve starts at 2100 and doesn't stop till 6000.

WD

[hannibal]

WD,A 2002 Viper with 460hp (crank) can run mid 12's, and the 240sx has to weigh less than a Viper GTS. So a S14 with similar power (400whp) has gotta be able to match the Viper at least. Are you saying that on the street, a Viper would have the advantage because of its awesome torque curve??Anyway I guess 320whp is a little low for low-mid 12's.

Thanks for the replyJay

[TomsMR2]

the new z06 runs LOW 12's. that things a beast. *fap fap fap*

how about set some lower goals? like.. ALOT lower? you need to set obtainable, reasonable goals before you go jump headfirst into a gigantic project.

do you have thousands upon thousands of dollars to spend? can you do ALL the work yourself? is there a dyno tuning facility around (you will need this)? theres so many things you gotta look at.

you're looking at making a fully built (forged everything), standalone controlled, very laggy high strung car. if you think this is gonna be a daily driver, think again.. chances are, you'll have ALOT of downtime. you're working with less than half the displacement of the other cars, you'll be playing catch up alot.

aim for the mr2 turbos, dsm GSX's, WRX's, 5.0 stangs, cambirds etc. once you spend too much money getting to that point, get more money and start again.

[hannibal]

I'm starting to see that a low 12 sec streetable car is big idea. And I guess a KA-T isnt the best way there either. Maybe I'll have to "settle" for a 13 sec car. I think that's do-able with stock internals (300whp @ 12 psi)

TomMR2, I would spend thousands of dollars on the right car.As for the cars you listed, a S14 will be able to run all over them with just a 7 psi kit.

I guess my question wasnt any better than the others.

Jay

[nlzmo400r]

yea, and the brand new vipers srt1o's are running 11.9s with a good driver and good conditions, so if you're looking for a ka-t to run low 13's and 12's, you're needing 385hp at the wehels atleast, and as far as vipers, you need atleast 425 at the wheels, dont underestimate cars just cause they're stock, and besides, how often are u really going to run into nsx's and 911 turbo's and such on the tsreet?

[nlzmo400r]

WD,A 2002 Viper with 460hp (crank) can run mid 12's, and the 240sx has to weigh less than a Viper GTS. So a S14 with similar power (400whp) has gotta be able to match the Viper at least. Are you saying that on the street, a Viper would have the advantage because of its awesome torque curve??Anyway I guess 320whp is a little low for low-mid 12's.

Thanks for the replyJay

vipers weigh 32oolbs and the 24o's weigh about 28oo for an s14, however, look at the tire size and torque of the viper, N/A power is totally different from TURBO power

[SingleCamSam]

Quote »so if you're looking for a ka-t to run low 13's and 12's, you're needing 385hp at [/quote]

If i can run 13.6 on street tires with a 100 shot wet kit and an intake+open exhaust (this is a single cam i.e. about 110hp to the wheels stock), i don't think it'll take that much horsepower to run high 12's. 300whp plus some good driving will get him low 13's at least.

[gyfer]

...As for the cars you listed, a S14 will be able to run all over them with just a 7 psi kit.Jay

Stock MR2, WRX, EVo can kick your 7psi kit...

You forget these car come in stock turbo form. All it need is just a after-market boost controller.

Even running at 12psi@300whp in your 240, you will still have trouble to keep up with them.In addition, running 12psi in stock internal require more than just "running race gas". Not it cannot be done.. but good luck

[JESTER]

Just my opinion.

But if you are wanting to take cars like that, I say...

Save your money and buy RB25 or RB26. Basic Performance Upgrades can get you close to your mark. If that doesnt do it, a good quality nitrous system will.

But you are looking at $8000 to $10500 depending.

[WDRacing]

Ok, so you might be able to take a completely stock Viper with street tires on and a bad driver if your car is running 12's. An exhaust and drag radials puts the Viper well beyond your reach.

Anyway, the KA should be able to make 350 or so on stock internals. It just depends on your mods and how you tune it.

Not to sound mean or anything, but do you have any idea about forced induction motors?? How much money are you wanting to invest?? Are you willing to do any block work?? You can run 12's pretty easy with an S13. You just need to know how to extract the power and put it down.

WD

[hannibal]

Honestly WD, I have no first hand knowledge about forced induction. Everything I know (or think I know) comes from what Ive read or seen other people do. This whole process will be a learning experience for me. That's why I wanna work on the KA. So if (or when) I screw up, I can get parts for much less than any swap.I cant justify spending $3k turboing a KA at 7psi and be at the limit of my setup and still lose to a stock C5. From my understanding, the cost difference between a 250whp (7psi) setup and a 300whp setup is relatively small. You just need more fuel and better tuning. The same type of parts are required but obviously tuned for more boost. I'd rather spend the extra money knowing that as I learn more, I can safely raise the boost. (Why drop in 370cc injectors when a youre gonna want 50lbs a year later??) So I would like a system capable of making much more power than I start with to give me room to grow. In the long run, I think this will save me money.I know less than many of yall about building a "high strung" turbo car, but if my goals point me in that direction I'm willing to spend the time and money to learn.

Thanks guysJay

[:: orion ::]

[quote=" IWannaS15

...From my understanding, the cost difference between a 250whp (7psi) setup...[/quote]

250rwhp at 7psi is a stretch...

A T3/T4 at 7psi will give you ~235rwhp...

The N-sport T04B-R will give you ~240rwhp with the expense of 1000rpm more lag.

Dunno what turbo you'd need for 250rwhp at 7psi - But it'd be HUGE.

- - - - - - - - -

But you're correct about saving money by building for 300rwhp - Get the JWT 3-bar setup with 50lb/hr top feeds, Cobra MAF, and custom fuel rail...and you'll have the fuel/timing control for a relatively safe ~320rwhp on pump gas, 350 if you want to push it.

Let us know what you do - Brian

[gyfer]

... Why drop in 370cc injectors when a youre gonna want 50lbs a year later...

Because your stock ECU cannot produce any smaller pulse to control your injectors. ( spray more gas due to bigger injector size) You will run rich at idle. To solve this ( i believe ), you have to lower your Fuel Pressure at idle point. Then again adjusting fuel pressure will affect A/F point at higher rpm.

So... Why use a 50lbs injectors if your 370cc injectors can handle 350hp ?

[hannibal]

The one thing I think everyone agrees on is that boost is addictive. So I would rather start with a setup running at 50% of its potential than to rig a system that is maxxed out as soon as I install it.Brian, thanks for the correction on hp at 7psi. I like the JWT setup you suggested. That would handle just about anything I could do on stock internals. Im gonna do some more research on that setup.

Thanks againJay

[oi138]

So... Why use a 50lbs injectors if your 370cc injectors can handle 350hp ?

Because 370cc injectors can't handle anywhere near 350hp. Hell if you do the math at 350 rwhp 50lbs. are about at 100% duty cycle at that point.

[bruinbear714]

Honestly WD, I have no first hand knowledge about forced induction. Everything I know (or think I know) comes from what Ive read or seen other people do. This whole process will be a learning experience for me. That's why I wanna work on the KA. So if (or when) I screw up, I can get parts for much less than any swap.I cant justify spending $3k turboing a KA at 7psi and be at the limit of my setup and still lose to a stock C5. From my understanding, the cost difference between a 250whp (7psi) setup and a 300whp setup is relatively small. You just need more fuel and better tuning. The same type of parts are required but obviously tuned for more boost. I'd rather spend the extra money knowing that as I learn more, I can safely raise the boost. (Why drop in 370cc injectors when a youre gonna want 50lbs a year later??) So I would like a system capable of making much more power than I start with to give me room to grow. In the long run, I think this will save me money.I know less than many of yall about building a "high strung" turbo car, but if my goals point me in that direction I'm willing to spend the time and money to learn.

Thanks guysJay

The difference between 250whp and 300whp setup is NOT SMALL. There is a reason why all of the basic bolt on turbo kits run at ~7psi and maxes out at about 240whp. The ecu and MAF sensor on the KA engine just runs out of headroom. If you want a 12second car, you will have to either:

1) Rebuild the KA to withstand more boost. Retune ECU, or go standalone, or some sort of engine management.

2) Go SR with bigger turbo, new manifold, retune ecu or engine management.

3) Stick an RB25 in there.

If it's a project car, I personally would go with the RB25 in an S13 chassis since I have a lifetime to get it running. If it's a daily car, I would either bolt on a turbo kit and be happy, or do an sr swap and run at 10-12psi of boost and be happy.

[Exar-Kun]

except to run over 15psi on the SR you'd have to redo a lot anyway...-chetdo things right, or not at all man.

[WDRacing]

As much as everyone likes JWT, and he's definitly proven, he's also a RIP OFF. I can't believe how much he actually charges people, not to mention the waiting list. If you have alot of money and don't mind waiting 3-4 months, more power to ya.

WD

[Exar-Kun]

I agree, but who else can make a ECU read the Z32 MAF, 550cc injectors, and such I plan on running?-chet

[SingleCamSam]

I'd have to agree. For just a little more than what JWT charges you could get an SDS. But is there anything that's cheaper AND easier than JWT other than a hacked maf?

[bruinbear714]

I just wished there was a PowerFC type of deal for the KA engine... that would definitely encouraged more people to turbo up the KA.

I was planning to map out the addresses on the KA ecu's, but just simply ran out of motivation. I have the rom code, but that is useless unless I can map out what each piece of the code means.

I came up with several ideas to do that, but they all require a lot of time investment. My goal for this project, if it ever takes off, is to eventually be able to program blank EPROMS and have it replace the OEM eprom data. That way, all sensor data (o2, tps, maf, etc etc) can be changed to suit different sensors.

[TomsMR2]

want infinite injector options? wanna run ferrari injectors one day, then geo injectors the next? wanna ditch the maf for a map? wanna ditch the entire ignition system? want something capable of running 150hp one day, then 1000hp the next?

you need standalone. hands down. you can start small, and go big. endless tuning is availble, using any part you damn well please. sensors etc etc are WAAAAY cheaper thru your local GM dealer, and are high quality.

if you have big goals, standalone is what you need. for tuning, go stock with no mods, or go standalone. everything else is half assed.... yes even jwt ecus.

[gyfer]

Hacked ECU will work like Standalone. You are very much reprogram the ECU to accept everything. Instead of changing the values in Standalone, your erase and "hard-program" the ECU the changes you made on your car.

Is like:A normal calculator - come with fixed processor than pre-program <- Stock ECUA TI calculator - come with sophicated processor than you can program the processor to do stuff you want ( like playing tetris in your calculator) <- Standalone

Both have pros and cons.Cons example: Do you like to restart your Microsoft Windows everyday in your Pentium Processor, when you get "Fatal Error - Illegal operation" blue screen ?

[huguetpj]

bruinbear... do you have the ROM code for the KA24E or KA24DE? If it's the DE I'll be most interested to take a look if it's the E just send it over I'll may probably take a look at it while I work on the DE one myself.

[hannibal]

Bruinbear, I dont think it makes sense to get a JWT ECU for 370cc and have to retune when you upgrade injectors or MAF. Why not pay to setup your system for your highest goal since you can always run less than that.And from what Im learning, I would choose an RB25 for a 12sec car. THe SR just doesnt appeal to me.I would consider a standalone if its more cost effective than the JWT (retune, retune again, retune again) idea. But I would need help in tuning it.

Jay

[bruinbear714]

bruinbear... do you have the ROM code for the KA24E or KA24DE? If it's the DE I'll be most interested to take a look if it's the E just send it over I'll may probably take a look at it while I work on the DE one myself.

Yeah, I have it somewhere on my computer.. I think it was for the single cam engine as the DE ecu's have their rom data internal to the microcontroller.. but I am not sure on this and don't remember....

Bruinbear, I dont think it makes sense to get a JWT ECU for 370cc and have to retune when you upgrade injectors or MAF. Why not pay to setup your system for your highest goal since you can always run less than that.And from what Im learning, I would choose an RB25 for a 12sec car. THe SR just doesnt appeal to me.I would consider a standalone if its more cost effective than the JWT (retune, retune again, retune again) idea. But I would need help in tuning it.

Jay

It makes sense if you are looking for a plug-n-play solution and can't afford downtime on your car, ie if it's your daily driver. If it's a project car, then it's a different story.

IF I had a project car to work on, it would be an S13 and I would do the RB25 swap and go with the PowerFC for engine management.

If it was my daily driver, I would go with the route that requires the least amount of downtime, which would be either 1) sr swap over a weekend, or 2) bolt-on turbo kit over the weekend.

[TomsMR2]

Hacked ECU will work like Standalone. You are very much reprogram the ECU to accept everything. Instead of changing the values in Standalone, your erase and "hard-program" the ECU the changes you made on your car.

no, a hacked/piggyback ecu is no where close to the capabilities of standalone. stock ecu's monitor and control the engine a certain way.. standalones do it whatever way you want. i dont think you can reprogram a stock ecu to detect knock and retard timing when needed... or reprogram it to use map sensing.Quote » Cons example: Do you like to restart your Microsoft Windows everyday in your Pentium Processor, when you get "Fatal Error - Illegal operation" blue screen ? [/quote] ... laptops are TOTALLY unnecessary for standalone. a standalone unit fully operates independantly. the laptop, or even desktop is used to tune values, or monitor/datalog while driving. once its set and tuned, you dont need a computer.

look at accel DFI. they work great, and are cheaper units.

[C-Kwik]

Hacked ECU will work like Standalone. You are very much reprogram the ECU to accept everything. Instead of changing the values in Standalone, your erase and "hard-program" the ECU the changes you made on your car.

Is like:A normal calculator - come with fixed processor than pre-program <- Stock ECUA TI calculator - come with sophicated processor than you can program the processor to do stuff you want ( like playing tetris in your calculator) <- Standalone

Both have pros and cons.Cons example: Do you like to restart your Microsoft Windows everyday in your Pentium Processor, when you get "Fatal Error - Illegal operation" blue screen ?

A hacked MAF will work nothing like a standalone. It's more related to a piggyback where it just fools the ECU into thinking it is getting a different amount of air so that it changes the injector pulse width accordingly. A piggyback is similar in that aspect, but it will provide the ability to alter airflow signal voltage at different points to further fool the ECU. A hacked MAF can only give the voltage it puts out, so you can't tune it more precisely.

A Standalone offers full resolution and control over the motor within the limits of the standalone. With a piggyback and hacked MAF, you are limited to the abilities of the stock ECU or at least the ECU you are running.

As far as Windows, get a better version. I've never had any problems with WIN2K or ME. 95 and 98 suck.

[TomsMR2]

2K/me is teh devil :P .. well, ok.. xp is worse :P

i wanna downgrade to 3.1... because im oldskool