Battle of the Standalones

[ch187]

a trip to a pro-fabricator got me thinking again. He's got a volvo 240 that he's built the **** out, fabricating a lot of his own piece. dude's a genius. he mentioned standalone and i asked him what he ran. wolf. v400 or 500. i remembered seing a few CAs running this system and i did a little research. so im wondering, TMS im awaiting your input, what you think would be the best bang for buck system.

WOLF 3D V500

8 Smart, Full sequential Injector outputs, driving 1-32 injectors, including high flow, low impedance injectors down to 0.5ohms per output pin.The V500 injector driver system reports live status of all injector channels including peak and hold reached times, injector current, short, weak and open circuits.

Latest 3D graphing, live dashboards and Datalogging software.

Advanced high-detail Fuel, Ignition and Control mapping systems, 2048 points at 125rpm steps with Easy Tuning modes.

Wide-Band Air-Fuel-Ratio (Lambda) system.

Dual Memory system, Power/Economy, Petrol/Gas modes and more.

16 General Purpose Output (GPO) functions supporting Auxiliary Outputs, with windowed switching 6 MultiController Output (MCO) functions, supporting 3D and 2D multi-axis tables for mapped linear control of any extra outputs desired, including PWM, solenoid position and trim control of internal ECU parameters GPO and MCO functions can support VTEC/VVT, NOS, Water Spray, Stepper Motor, Emissions Control, Idle Up, Warning Lights, and any other additional devices required. Wide-Band Air-Fuel-Ratio (Lambda) Closed Loop Control Idle Speed Control Stepper Motor Control Turbo Boost/Wastegate Control Turbo Timer support Shift Light function, dedicated with up to 6 stages and flash point.

13 Auxiliary Input pins available as many extra inputs Camshaft, Crankshaft, Reference and Sync Trigger inputs, Hall Effect, Reluctor and Optical, user selectable Internal MAP sensor up to 30psi boost (higher with external sensor) External MAP or MAF Sensor Throttle Position Engine Temperature Lambda/Oxygen Sensor, Dual Channel, Narrow Band or Wideband LSU4 Air Conditioning Request Vehicle/Wheel Speed

15 to 27 Auxiliary Output pins available as extra outputs (unused Injector and Ignition pins can be used) 8 Smart, Full sequential Injector outputs 8 Full sequential Ignition outputs Fuel Pump Thermo Fan Idle Speed Control Tacho Output Turbo Timer

Internal MAP sensor reads boost pressures up to 30psi.

$1514

looks promising but how does it compare??

haltech, SDS, megasquirt. is there any others to consider?

this will be used in conjuction with a T04s or GT3076r. fabricating my own twin scoll manifold which is in progress now. im not ****ing around anymore

[themadscientist]

Boost boy might have a word or two on the subject; I believe he has messed with Wolf products before and has more experience tuning standalones than me. I have gotten by piggybacking all this time; the Haltech is my first foray without a jimmy hat. Tweakit has my Haltech on a plane! Do the goodie dance! I expect to have the shoestring 18 screwed together and fired up by October. I will get a full, detailed writeup compiled and whatever I learn I will share regarding the haltech on the CA. I believe we have a decent writeup for the Megasquirt and SDS already; maybe you can take one for the team and be the guinea pig for the Wolf.

[boost_boy]

The Wolf V500 system has an impressive resume which supercedes earlier wolf 3D systems. It comes down to this, exactly what are you going to be doing with your car (drag, drift, autoX, etc.), who's going to be tuning that system, the individual's knowledge of said engine's characteristics, and mainly, how much are "YOU" willing to throw at the car to add supporting mods to accomodate such a system because those DSM 450s and a T28 does not warrant the use of a standalone engine management.

Bottom line is this, the person that's tuning your car should be the one helping you make this decision because ultimately and more than likely, installation and tuning will fall upon that individual or a business for the most part. There are just too many standalone systems out there that seems to suit any budget that may very well be competent enough to help you achieve your objective without breaking your pocket.

Other standalones to consider with my opinions are:

AEM= Excellent for tuning, but will scare away most CA owners because most are budget-boosters.

Megasquirt= This system seems to come in two phases: Partially assembled for those that are electronically engineered via schooling or have prior experience with electronics and just want to save a few bucks or just strapped on cash. Fully assembled for those that don't mind paying a few extra bucks for a finished product. There's a gang of users around the world and also a few CA18 users on this forum somewhere, so at least you can try and get more feedback from one of them. Just too bulky of a system and though I own two Ford Taurus SHO vehicles, I'm not interested in sourcing Ford stuff to complete an aftermarket engine management. But they do work and people do use it, so my opinion is just what it is.

Haltech= Very good tuning device that has proven itself in this business. The cost is not as bad as it used to be, but it still sports a "Stay away budget booster" price tag as well. I've seen a lot of engines destroyed with this system. The tuners all seem to blame the system, but when I tune them, no blown engines? I think the tuners are the ones screwing-up, but it doesn't make me any better than them, just more cautious.

Microtec= Cute, compact, but powerful system that is very well capable of getting the job done at the hands of a good tuner. I personally am not a fan of the system, but from the couple I've tuned, if needed, I could get used to tuning them.

Motec= Big baller stuff. Over-kill for what I need, but I would love to get one. I can't justify to my woman why I purchased a system that is equivalent to a few months mortgage. No need for this one...........

SDS= It's a decent system for the money spent. It also sports a "stay away budget-booster" price tag which is probably that of most CA owners engine sets. If you don't like using key pads, stay away from this one as the key pad is LCD (backlit optional). I'm not going to get into what it's capabilities are because they have a website: http://www.sdsefi.com that will help you better understand the product than I can. All I can say is this system works for what I need it for and it's pretty powerful in it own reicht. One sentra has the headroom to run 37psi of boost and the other sentra has the headroom to 60psi of boost (Money well spent).

In closing dude, do your research and consult with your tuner to see what he/she/it suggests and go from there. I've left out a few standalones for a reason , so good luck on whatever you select.

Dee

[r34 gtr]

I considered the Wolf 3D a while back, and nearly bought one, but as usual every time I have the money for a good computer, the engine itself breaks. I know of quite a few ca powered vehicles in Australia using the system with great results, and if you have someone locally who knows how to tune them well, you may want to consider it based on that alone.

I have also heard good things about the Hydra EMS and though I do not have any real experience with it, it should not be left out of a comparison. It seems like quite the powerful unit, and with proper knowledge it could prove very good for your application.

I'm running the Megasquirt II v3 and if you can handle building it and installing it, its not bad at all - especially for the price. You just cant find anything that comes close to comparing for the price. I am still getting the hang of tuning it, and so I will refrain from telling you how easy it is and everything, because I have not quite reached that point yet. You will also have to read a good bit in order to have any clue what you are doing. It also does not do sequential injection, which doesnt bother me, but may be important to you. One other thing about Megasquirt ive found is that there arent too many places that can tune it for you. its pretty much DIY the whole way.

gt3076r. wow. I am quite jealous actually. One of these days I'll throw down on something like that, but for the time being I need to concentrate on getting this hunk o junk running right.

[ch187]

thanks for the words guys. theres a local guy that did my turbo. he dyno tunes 800hp supra all day..i'll talk to him, he's quite a smart guy. but i also may talk to the guy thats tuning travis' wolf system. i plan on fabricating all my parts in the fall. buy my parts in the winter. when tax season comes around get my ems. which will give me plenty for any standalone i want+tuning. the standalone wont even see my 450s and gt28r. they'll see my 800-1000cc and my gt3076r...but you have a good idea Dee. i'll talk to them about tuning. but I do know he does AEM because he's been selling,installing, and tuning for 5 years. i just didnt think they made it for the CA.

[The_Chosen_One]

I'm running the Megasquirt II v3 and if you can handle building it and installing it, its not bad at all - especially for the price. You just cant find anything that comes close to comparing for the price. I am still getting the hang of tuning it, and so I will refrain from telling you how easy it is and everything, because I have not quite reached that point yet. You will also have to read a good bit in order to have any clue what you are doing. It also does not do sequential injection, which doesnt bother me, but may be important to you. One other thing about Megasquirt ive found is that there arent too many places that can tune it for you. its pretty much DIY the whole way.

Its not easy for you because its you Tim As for sequential its in beta right now which means about 30 people around the world are using it so the creators are waiting for Feedback before going public with it.

If a place can tune a system like Haltech, AEM EMS, Wolf, FAST etc etc and they cant tune MS than I'd stay away. MS is not different from those system, a experienced tuner can jump in and get their feet wet and use the program without any problems.

Dont forget KC your probably not gonna use 10% of the features of some of these EMS so dont let all that extra **** sway you. I have MS but I didnt get it for the 2 step, Anti Lag, launch control, yada yada, because I know I wasnt gonna need it, its there if I want to.

[ch187]

yeah id thought about megasquirt but i dont really want to do a trigger wheel and edis. id rather just keep the factory cas and use external coilpacks if nissans decide to crap out on me. dont worry i havent forgotten about it. also does it use fuel cut for rev limiting? i always thought it did.

[r34 gtr]

ive got mine set for ignition cut. you can choose either.

tuning the msII isnt hard, the interface makes it dead easy, but as I have yet to get the car running the way I want, I just thought I might as well not say anything. Ill let everyone know how much I love it when I get it tuned properly on 15psi after I break in the seals on the new head.

[dash]

if there was a "megasquirt-head" amongst us, who worked out the bugs and had an easily adaptable option for the ca18 ~$700. It would be hard to beat.One such system offered for miatas and a 4AG application been sorted.I prefer EDIS to eliminate coilpack, CAS and spline problems for good.

A similar setup using Megatune? offered for our starions for $495 fuel-only, then $200 additional for ignition control. With the supplied map, some have run 25+psi on pump gas, right out the box! Excellent dyno runs too & fast cars to match.

Proving to be a great way to dive into programmable ecu.MUST have that "megasquirt-head" ca18 enthusiast to make it happen thoTakes the "sting" outta the relatively 'crude' standalone.

[r34 gtr]

But we do have a proper CA "megasquirt-head" amongst us. We even have a good proven map for the stock ca18det! The reason I have not gotten mine tuned properly is a lack of time (I am at achool and the car is 250 miles away at my house) and the fact that it is far from stock.

[The_Chosen_One]

if there was a "megasquirt-head" amongst us, who worked out the bugs and had an easily adaptable option for the ca18 ~$700. It would be hard to beat.One such system offered for miatas and a 4AG application been sorted.I prefer EDIS to eliminate coilpack, CAS and spline problems for good.

A similar setup using Megatune? offered for our starions for $495 fuel-only, then $200 additional for ignition control. With the supplied map, some have run 25+psi on pump gas, right out the box! Excellent dyno runs too & fast cars to match.

Proving to be a great way to dive into programmable ecu.MUST have that "megasquirt-head" ca18 enthusiast to make it happen thoTakes the "sting" outta the relatively 'crude' standalone.

I guess I'm not the Megasquirt-head than, after all I made the write up. I build kits for people. Their are several people in this forum running my kits, Tyrannix has the first kit I built, ca18datsun510 has my 3rd kit, Secret Squirrel will be receiving my 5th kit as I'm finishing it up soon.

My kits dont cost $700 either, I build the ecu and the wiring harness for about $500, they do come with a map to get the motor started and running, soon I will be posting up a better map since the current map is extremly conservative, I'm just lazy to fix my downpipe issue but I'll be doin that soon.

Do a search on Nico for Megasquirt you'll see I've been involved in a lot of the threads, even posted up the write up for the KA using the KA's stock ignition.

[ch187]

yep, julian is own little mega-whore. eh, for 500 i may do it. i'll let you know julian, its pretty tempting as long as it has ignition cut, its probably going to be the shops drift car next season.

[r34 gtr]

even if it didnt have ignition cut, you could always take care of that by running a MSD ignition instead of EDIS.

[ch187]

interesting thought. how does MSD calculate crank angle. use the CAS or a trigger?

[iliketocrash]

i suggest you stay far away from MSD products. i understand that lots of people have used MSD products forever and are perfectly happy with them but i've seen a lot more issues, first hand, with their products than i have seen success.

[ch187]

i always thought they were for big blocks and track cars. meh..

[Nunook]

just realized something. Since someone successfully uses gm coils instead of the stock cop coils. doesn't that mean we could use our stock cop(or better yet split fire coils) in wasted spark on the megasquirt. i know the stock coils would probably be stressed a hella lot, but it would work?

[dash]

I guess I'm not the Megasquirt-head ...... posted up the write up for the KA using the KA's stock ignition.

Checked in on the MS thread a few times but didn't realize TCO offered MS packages.A write up is one thing... but its when you see the monsters rise up from the grave, equipped these MS "packages" is what makes folks stand up and take notice. Those sorta results is what'll "put you on the map" so to speak, no doubt.

Clipped your email TCO. I'll probably hit ya up after my starion is sortedSo we have our official ca18 "megasquirt-head" then. Good to know!

[The_Chosen_One]

just realized something. Since someone successfully uses gm coils instead of the stock cop coils. doesn't that mean we could use our stock cop(or better yet split fire coils) in wasted spark on the megasquirt. i know the stock coils would probably be stressed a hella lot, but it would work?

think of it this way, the FORD coil pack is actually 4 coils with 2 coils wrapped around 1 terminal wire. So if you wanted to use the stock COP you would have to wire them up in parallel, that way it prevents the COP from burning out. The only problem is probably trying to test what settings work good with the cop.

Eventually I'd like to switch over to LS1 coils but the problem is that the LS1 coils trigger on the negative pulse instead of positive.

Either way the FORD pack should be good for my needs as they tend to love boost.

[themadscientist]

I am hooking th Haltech up to my factory coils. I have seen plenty of powerful Nissan engines still utilizing the stock coils. With the E8 I can run full sequential ignition so the coils will have even more time to charge between events.

[boost_boy]

I am hooking th Haltech up to my factory coils. I have seen plenty of powerful Nissan engines still utilizing the stock coils. With the E8 I can run full sequential ignition so the coils will have even more time to charge between events.

Well, good luck with the stock coils and CAS. I'm very sure you can do just fine with or without them, but I enjoy the ease of removing a spark plug wire to check my plugs as opposed to undo those coilpacks. And though the CAS is very accurate, that's just one less thing to fail as well.

Technically speaking, this thread is not a battle of standalones, but merely trying to understand the differences of the many systems that are out there and what system caters to what user's preferences (ie cost, user accessible functions, etc, etc). Pick whatever you want (you gotta love variety).

Here's a video where I was fairly new to standalones. The standalone I was using was an SDS EM-2 that I bought for about $500 and sent it back to racetech SDS for some upgrades. This car was street tuned (never saw a dyno yet), using one of my builder's funky upgraded T25s, open diff, tires that scrubbed my struts, a ricey exhaust, and my friend's girlfriend in the back seat all after leaving Moroso motorsports park racing everything not tied down that day and having a conservatively tuned car: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1pWnnkIcbw

And though it's an old video, it just shows the potential of a standalone once the users understands the characteristics of the powerplant, components, and the fuel system they're tuning. I may have not been the best tuner then and probably nowhere near the best now, but the job gets done and no blown engines to date with numerous happy customers including myself.

Dee

[ch187]

i had thought about using different coils but which ones could i use? i dont know the difference between them. im making my manifold and thought about mounting/grounding them to that. because your right Dee, i love just pulling a wire to check the plugs. and the "battle of the standalones" was just figuratively speaking..and instead of using a CAS the only other option is the trigger wheel and vr sensor correct?

[boost_boy]

i had thought about using different coils but which ones could i use? i dont know the difference between them. im making my manifold and thought about mounting/grounding them to that. because your right Dee, i love just pulling a wire to check the plugs. and the "battle of the standalones" was just figuratively speaking..and instead of using a CAS the only other option is the trigger wheel and vr sensor correct?

Well, GM coils are what I'm using, but I can also use the MSD coils if I saw a need. You need to check with whatever manufacturer you're going use to see what's coil systems can and should not be used with your system. Crank triggering is what I use and what I prefer because it eliminates the CAS and besides that's all the system I use will allow, but you are correct as far triggering opions are concerned for this motor.

Dee

[mothius]

Dee,

could you elaborate on your trigger timing setup, I don't know if you remember I have a cam with a spoke broke in it (270 cam) I want to use.

Tony

[The_Chosen_One]

Dee,

could you elaborate on your trigger timing setup, I don't know if you remember I have a cam with a spoke broke in it (270 cam) I want to use.

Tony

This is the crank trigger that SDS tells you to use.

http://www.sdsefi.com/techhall3.htm

[jt15833]

i may have missed alot and this may have been answered but how is it they are using those sensors without the tooth wheel i see attached to everyones crank when i see MS on these boards?

also what do you guys think about greddy emanage? even though its not standalone =/

[boost_boy]

i may have missed alot and this may have been answered but how is it they are using those sensors without the tooth wheel i see attached to everyones crank when i see MS on these boards?

also what do you guys think about greddy emanage? even though its not standalone =/

SDS uses three powerful magnets strategically spaced apart and carefully embedded in your crank pulley. I'm pretty sure MS owners will help you understand how the MS system crank system operates, so either keep reading or just standby for another response. And as for the emanage, great tuning piece, but you'll need to have someone familiar with it. There's a couple of members here who have had experiences with it as well.

Dee

[mothius]

I wonder, can you use the sds trigger system on the megasquirt?

[The_Chosen_One]

i may have missed alot and this may have been answered but how is it they are using those sensors without the tooth wheel i see attached to everyones crank when i see MS on these boards?

also what do you guys think about greddy emanage? even though its not standalone =/

There are different types of triggers used for standalones. For example the OEM trigger for the CA uses a optical disc which reads holes in a disc and tells the ecu to fire the injectors and coils.

Some of the MS guys use a 36-1 tooth with a VR sensor, this works by a positive to negative signal. The VR sensor has a magnet at the end and when the motor spins it reads the trigger wheel teeth it lets MS know where the engine is.

However MS can use 95% of Ignition triggers on the market and OEM. So you can use a Optical, Hall, VR etc etc.

And Mothius you could use the SDS trigger with MS, I just dont like that you have to mount the magnets on the crank pulley.