Bailout working?

[480sx]

Excuse us ignorant people for stepping on your edjumacated toes. I'm sure glad people like you and Ish are around to help steer us and tell us what we should know and do. I'll shut up now and let you and others dictate to the rest of us.

Finally some rewards for all our hard work.

I love how you get all butt hurt about it and dont even admit that you screwed up by having NO idea what we were talking about.

Then i love the last part too where your being sarcastic, 'letting others dictate to the rest of us', while your trying to tell us how we shouldnt call people ignorant. Sounds kinda like.. Telling us what we should say...

[ishkabibble]

Matt's a big fan of the butterfly effect. It allows him to reach far enough to justify his predetermined conclusion that the Dems are to blame for everything. Next thing you know, he'll be arguing that Dennis Kucinich sneezing caused the Iraq War.

[WDRacing]

You don't have to be educated to form an opinion on what your tax dollars should be spent on. Since they are after all, taxes taken directly from you.

Since it's an opinion, it can be expressed as such right? Does that make us ignorant? Perhaps the guys slinging the ignorant word around would care to put a plan to bail out the Nation on the table...since you're so much smarter then most.

Nate, for being someone that is all about calling people ignorant, you need to pull your head out bro. Bailing out the big 3 is a bad idea. Bad free market decisions lead to bussiness failure. Which is underserving of MY tax dollars.

I wouldn't have bailed out AIG either. In fact, I wouldn't bail out any bank that made high risk housing loans and here's why.

Private Mortgage Ins. It's something we pay every month if you don't have 20% to put down on your house. This is so the banks can take out an ins policy incase you forclose. The PMI on my house is a touch over $200/month...any idea how much of an ins policy I can get for $200/month ? How about 250% what my house is worth. So if these high risk loans are being forclosed on, shouldn't the banks be safe? Oh...they didn't actually buy an ins policy, they just pocketed the PMI...gotcha.

The damn Gov just now installed someone to keep track of oversight for the bailout. Where's the money...um, we don't really have a list of where it went....THATS ignorant.

[AZhitman]

A couple of you need to go over to the automaker bailout thread.

I see some real confused thinking going on in here: Namely, that bankruptcy = auto industry collapse, and the notion that the majority of Americans support a UAW bailout.

[smockers83]

Why must every thread turn into someone calling someone names? If you want to argue, make an argument wherein argument means defending your view. If you're incapable of doing so, then don't post. Can we stop the bickering and talk about the issues? Yeah? Thanks.

[480sx]

You don't have to be educated to form an opinion on what your tax dollars should be spent on. Since they are after all, taxes taken directly from you.

Since it's an opinion, it can be expressed as such right? Does that make us ignorant? Perhaps the guys slinging the ignorant word around would care to put a plan to bail out the Nation on the table...since you're so much smarter then most.

Nate, for being someone that is all about calling people ignorant, you need to pull your head out bro. Bailing out the big 3 is a bad idea. Bad free market decisions lead to bussiness failure. Which is underserving of MY tax dollars.

Man, people in general have their head up their asses. You cant say that Americans know what the hell is going on, im not saying i do either.

All about calling people ignorant? Idk, when have i ever called anyone ignorant other than in this thread.. Im pretty freaken ignorant myself, im not trying to put myself on some pedestal here. This is a deeply rooted problem and there is no easy fix. I hold the belief that most people in general have no idea whats good for them, and are like sheep. Sorry to be an ******* about it, but for real.. I guess the word ignorant carries a harsh condentation that i wasnt trying to convey.

O/C its an opinion, i made that pretty clear. Simply because i think people are ignorant does not make it so. The general population of the world seems to have no idea whats going on, its not just an American thing. I also said most, not all.

General public man.. Give me some kinda a break here, you arnt what i would call general public and neither are any of the regulars who post here. Hell, anyone with an interest in politics at all goes outside of the general public. Its a rarity you know.

My point was this. 'We' have already voted to bail out the economy. 70 billion dollars has already been allocated to stop the downward spiral of the American economy. This is a bad idea, IMO. However, now that its done and over with, i feel that the people should still have a say in where that money goes. Whats the difference between bailing out wallstreet and bailing out the big three? At least when you bail out the big three you save a crap ton of jobs. If they fail our economy is going to take an even harder hit. Its all part of the problem, its much larger than simply wall street. If were going to do a bailout(which we did) then why the fvk should it only be contained to the banking industry? Are they the only people who are in trouble here?

Money is just being handed over now to the banks to spend as they wish now, again, breaking promises and not following the game plan set up by congress and the bailout legislation.

IMO i think we should have a bottom up bailout, this trickle down crap doesnt seem to be cutting it anymore. Is this necessarily the right idea or the best way? Probably not, its just the opinion of a 23 year old, take it for what its worth.

EDIT - No ones even name calling here.. Aud took something personal that was in no way directed at him at all, or anyone on this forum and i poked at him for it.

[WDRacing]

I don't think Matt took it personally at all.

The Big 3 bail out has another thread. I don't wanna express anything here that I've already said there. In short, IMO is stupid. Read that thread for a more detailed version.

I'm not saying that Americans aren't ignorant. But saying that they don't know what's good for themselves? Dude, it's a free country, prosper or don't. Taking my tax dollars and giving them to businesses that made really bad decisions is not my idea of good for me. You might think so, but I sure as hell don't.

This bailout is already F'd up. They can't even account for all the money they've lent out so far. The Gov needs to GET OUT of the free market. The only thing they should have done with the bail out money is buy the mortgages in crisis, set up a refi at affordable rates over a long term and press on with pride. The people can keep their homes and the banks have money to lend credit on. Everything else that fails...fails.

[480sx]

Dude, it's a free country, prosper or don't.

Point taken.

Taking my tax dollars and giving them to businesses that made really bad decisions is not my idea of good for me. You might think so, but I sure as hell don't.

I think its a horrible idea! Iv said it over and over again. But since its already done, and is being done, why not give some to one of the hearts of american businesses. Anyway, ill go through the big three bailout thread and add my 2c.

This bailout is already F'd up.

Agreed.

The Gov needs to GET OUT of the free market.

Very tricky situation really. In theory it sounds great but from what i have seen of this economic crises, government could have been more careful when regulating lending and this crisis we are in now could have been avoided. In a sense, this 'free reign' that was given to banks is partially responsible for this situation, so whos to say a completely unregulated economy would work. Economics is a very complicated and murkey field, no one really has the 'ideal' way of doing things. Its all theory, testing, and practice it would seem.

The only thing they should have done with the bail out money is buy the mortgages in crisis, set up a refi at affordable rates over a long term and press on with pride. The people can keep their homes and the banks have money to lend credit on. Everything else that fails...fails.

Agreed. People and businesses need to learn to live within their means and credit is an enabler for bad decision making, in one line of thinking. For those of whom had to learn the hard way, cut them some kind of socialist style break THIS ONE TIME(still not really a big fan.. but again, 'we' already passed a bailout plan), and let it be a learning lesson for future generations.

[audtatious]

Then i love the last part too where your being sarcastic, 'letting others dictate to the rest of us', while your trying to tell us how we shouldnt call people ignorant. Sounds kinda like.. Telling us what we should say...

Telling you what to say would be me editing your posts.

I don't get butt hurt over forums. What's the point? Now, instigate? That I do at times.

[audtatious]

Matt's a big fan of the butterfly effect. It allows him to reach far enough to justify his predetermined conclusion that the Dems are to blame for everything. Next thing you know, he'll be arguing that Dennis Kucinich sneezing caused the Iraq War.

Except, gee, since this forum was created I have called BS on the Republicans too. Of course, with numerous members constantly blaming everything on Bush and the Republicans ( not saying they are blameless ) it is my duty to make sure dirt is thrown right back.

As far as the bailout it was handled rather stupidly. Bush wanted it, McCain wanted it, Paulson wanted it, Obama wanted it and the Dems running the show wanted it. So they take a swipe at it and it fails. Back to the drawing board they add earmarks for the votes. This time they get it passed with some Republican support. The bailout itself has no oversight and is fully in the hands of Paulson. Wonderful plan. Everyone who voted for it and got an earmark should be fired. Since Bush and his Administration is "out" I think we start with Pelosi, Reid and Frankie.

[ishkabibble]

I see some real confused thinking going on in here: Namely, that bankruptcy = auto industry collapse

It does. Very few people would buy cars from a bankrupt automaker, and then the bankruptcy stigma would follow them for a generation. It's better to just sell off the carcass and start over with a fresh corporate culture.

Perhaps the guys slinging the ignorant word around would care to put a plan to bail out the Nation on the table...since you're so much smarter then most.

Here's my plan: Let the chips fall where they may. We'll survive despite the pain in the short term.

Except, gee, since this forum was created I have called BS on the Republicans too.

On occasion.

it is my duty to make sure dirt is thrown right back.

It's your perceived duty to troll? You've got a lot to say, but for some reason we've got to troll you to get it out of you. It's a vicious circle, I guess.

[audtatious]

On occasion.

Sorry, I don't feel the need to harp on Bush and the NeoCons as a whole as we have people randomly blame them for everything anyway.

It's your perceived duty to troll? You've got a lot to say, but for some reason we've got to troll you to get it out of you. It's a vicious circle, I guess.

You troll, I troll back. Big circle jerk I guess.

[WDRacing]

Here's my plan: Let the chips fall where they may. We'll survive despite the pain in the short term.

I'd back that plan. Imagine a world where we actually held people and businesses accountable for their actions.

[AZhitman]

It does. Very few people would buy cars from a bankrupt automaker, and then the bankruptcy stigma would follow them for a generation. It's better to just sell off the carcass and start over with a fresh corporate culture.

Chrysler. Iacocca. Plenty of people bought their cars.

Reorganization is exactly what is needed, and that can be done in Ch 11.

Who wants to buy a "carcass"?

Bankruptcy doesn't impact day-to-day operations. No money from the government unless they're willing to drop / renegotiate all the UAW contracts and shady supplier contractual agreements.

[audtatious]

Looks like CitiGroup is sittin pretty now.....

Check this out:

Citigroup and ACORN Sign Groundbreaking Agreement to Expand Homeownership in Communities Around the CountrySeptember 20, 2004 http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=2082

Guess it worked in getting someone else to foot the bills....

[ishkabibble]

Chrysler. Iacocca. Plenty of people bought their cars.

Yet they are about to be bailed out a second time. Also, the environment has changed. Far fewer people are loyal to American brands, and they are stigmatized.

Reorganization is exactly what is needed, and that can be done in Ch 11.

If they file Chapter 11, we can keep repeating this every decade or two.

Who wants to buy a "carcass"?

There is plenty of value in the carcass; both physical and IP.

[Cold_Zero]

My guess is no, the Bailout is not working.

U.S. Pledges Top $7.7 Trillion to Ease Frozen Credit (Update2)http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/...=home

Didn't Congress originally authorize 700billion dollars?

Another great linkhttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/...kygWs

[AZhitman]

Yet they are about to be bailed out a second time. Also, the environment has changed. Far fewer people are loyal to American brands, and they are stigmatized.

With good cause.

No offense ish, but "American brand" means little to nothing anymore.

You know where these cars are built. You know where the subassemblies come from. And you know where the money goes.

It's a global automotive market.

Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai, VW, M-B are ALL building cars in the US with American workers and dumping TONS of money into the US economy.

Some of them consist of more "domestic" content than the Big Three.

So, no. I could give a damn if they file Ch 11. Restructure, reorganize, tell the UAW to piss off (none of the other companies are strangled by unions).

Sub-suppliers are feeling the sting as well, should they be bailed out too?

Here's MY proposal: Redo NAFTA. Slap a tarriff on anything coming into the US. You wanna buy a BMW? You're gonna pay $2K on top of the sticker price. Don't like it? Buy something else. Hell, they do it to US automakers, so why not some reciprocity?

The UAW's mafia-like tactics and political influence have GOT to stop. Unfortunately, our boy BO is neck-deep in the arse of the UAW.

[smockers83]

So, no. I could give a damn if they file Ch 11. Restructure, reorganize, tell the UAW to piss off (none of the other companies are strangled by unions).

Sub-suppliers are feeling the sting as well, should they be bailed out too?

Here's MY proposal: Redo NAFTA. Slap a tarriff on anything coming into the US. You wanna buy a BMW? You're gonna pay $2K on top of the sticker price. Don't like it? Buy something else. Hell, they do it to US automakers, so why not some reciprocity?

The UAW's mafia-like tactics and political influence have GOT to stop. Unfortunately, our boy BO is neck-deep in the arse of the UAW.

+1 for the fall of the UAW and Gettelfinger!

But...

Suppliers are feeling the sting, however, if you bail out the industry and it survives, the suppliers no longer need to be bailed out because the three can now pay them back. If they fail, then the suppliers may fail as well, which in turn will hurt the foreign market as well.

Also, if we start putting up barriers to trade, its only going to hurt us even more. The domestic industry advocated for the government to do this against Toyota back in the day and look where that's gotten us. It only would exacerbate the problem and make the domestic industry even less competitive. Fix the problem instead, make the companies competitive by putting contingencies on their loan. Don't redo NAFTA because none of the foreign car companies are under NAFTA.

[audtatious]

I doubt it will go down that way. For some reason I have the sneaking suspicion that once those in charge of Congress has verified that Unions will be saved via a bailout plan that they will do everything needed to ensure the automakers get their bailout.

[480sx]

No offense ish, but "American brand" means little to nothing anymore.

You know where these cars are built. You know where the subassemblies come from. And you know where the money goes.

It's a global automotive market.

Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai, VW, M-B are ALL building cars in the US with American workers and dumping TONS of money into the US economy.

Some of them consist of more "domestic" content than the Big Three.

So, no. I could give a damn if they file Ch 11. Restructure, reorganize, tell the UAW to piss off (none of the other companies are strangled by unions).

Sub-suppliers are feeling the sting as well, should they be bailed out too?

Man thats a good point and a fresh perspective. Honestly, what have the american auto manufacturers done for us recently?

[AZhitman]

Not much. Most innovations are pioneered by companies that are percived as "foreign".

The reality is, there are only a few cars COMPLETELY built and assembled in America, and IIRC, one of them isn't from the Big Three. So, terms like "domestic" and "import" are actually archaic and outdated.

[ishkabibble]

No offense ish, but "American brand" means little to nothing anymore.

Brand is the perception of a company. The Big 3 are certainly perceived as American.

You are correct about "domestic" and "import", though.

[AZhitman]

So is Budweiser.

Any emotionally-fueled argument about "Amurrican cars" representing some sort of greater benefit is effectively dead.