Got the winter tires swapped in my wifes 2015 rogue a couple weeks ago and notice the wheel bearing noise...again...
I foolishly assumed it was the replacement gone bad, based on all the trouble I had with the original change. (front drivers side replaced August 2022) So I got a new one under warranty, swapped it out, but the noise is still there. I get the roar when turning left, goes away turning right, and gets louder when going straight as I speed up.
So I jacked up each wheel, but there is absolutely zero play in any of them. The only other tell was the rear drivers side rotor was a lot hotter at the hub than the other 3, and I'd just done the rear brakes the week before, so I know it's not a brake issue.
That's pretty much given me enough confidence to order the rear drivers side bearing, or is there another definitive check I could do?

You won't find any play in a Nissan wheel bearing until it's ready to fall off the car. They get a flat spot or glitch in one of the rollers and the "click" you hear with a stethoscope turns into a roar under load and road speed. If you jack the suspect wheel and spin it, you'll hear some kind of little noise with a stethoscope. Any clicking or ticking at all means a bad bearing, the most noise a healthy bearing makes is the "white noise" whisper of a passing breeze.

Yeah, I couldn't hear or feel anything when spinning the wheels either, but I was told I wouldn't without a stethoscope as you say. So would you take a chance on the hotter wheel being the bad bearing?
I'd get it diagnosed at a shop but I'm away during the week these days and she can't be without a vehicle.

I was always told if the noise went away when turning one direction, then the bad bearing was on the opposite side, but I've read the opposite as well, along with the opinion that it could be either side, that the noise/direction isn't a definitive answer for which side is bad. On top of that, it SOUNDS like it's coming from the front, not the back...

Actually, it depends which side of the bearing is affected. With any bearing, a left turn loads the outboard side of the righthand bearing hardest and vice versa, but with rollers, if the damage is to the inboard part of the roller you can get contradictory results. I don't advise guessing, a good mechanics' steth is $7 at Harbor Freight:
https://www.harborfreight.com/mechanics ... 63691.html

PS - If it sounds like the front, it's possible it's the carrier bearing on the right front axle and not a wheel bearing at all.

Didn't know that was a thing, even searched local classifieds for a regular stethoscope. Hah, and they're 50% off right now at princess auto. (Our equivalent to HF) I'll pick one up and play doctor on the weekend.

thanks

There is no play for one major reason.

They are not only obitaly formed, but also are also fastened to the
axle shaft. This decreases deflection for brake pad push-back on
bends. If there were no axle bolted to the front of the hub, you
would have play in the bearing. I had a Camaro, and the rear
wheel bearings were the same as the front. I had one go bad, but
there was no play because the axle is bolted to it, at 200 ft-lbs.
What it did do, was growl, and oval out and was like an out of
balance tire. Having the axle bolted to the hub will save you
from the wheel falling off. This is why the Dodge Viper front
wheel bearings get a dummy axle-bolt and nut. It is a 4" bolt the
diameter of the axle shaft with a 3" diameter head at the back of
the knuckle; the bolts is splined too, and bolts to the hub. So, if
the bearing tears up, the front wheel won't fall off. Yeah, it
would scrape and sound like hell, and probably seize up when you
stop, but that wheel won't come off. I have seen the rear wheel
fall off a Mustang, which is solid axle. The axle broke right
behind the hub plate, and the wheel. with the hub in it, slid
right off...

When a wheel bearing is bad, you will hear it growl. The pitch will
go up and down with speed, and may subside with braking, as it
pulls the bearing straight.

SKF makes X-Tracker wheel bearings for higher performance cars.
They angled the bearings to reduce deflection. They also have
a few different types, but they're very strong. X-Tracker is only
available in an orbitaly formed bearing last I knew. I got a set for
my Camaro, and it made a noticeable difference when cornering.

Anyhow, yeah, be glad you have axles bolted to the bearing hubs.

Also, as stated, the passenger side axle has a carrier type bearing
because it's so long. That will make noise when the bearings
go bad.

PowerslavePA wrote: ↑

Tue May 30, 2023 11:27 pm

They are not only obitaly formed, but also are also fastened to the
axle shaft. This decreases deflection for brake pad push-back on
bends. If there were no axle bolted to the front of the hub, you
would have play in the bearing. I had a Camaro, and the rear
wheel bearings were the same as the front. I had one go bad, but
there was no play because the axle is bolted to it, at 200 ft-lbs.
What it did do, was growl, and oval out and was like an out of
balance tire. Having the axle bolted to the hub will save you
from the wheel falling off. This is why the Dodge Viper front
wheel bearings get a dummy axle-bolt and nut. It is a 4" bolt the
diameter of the axle shaft with a 3" diameter head at the back of
the knuckle; the bolts is splined too, and bolts to the hub. So, if
the bearing tears up, the front wheel won't fall off. Yeah, it
would scrape and sound like hell, and probably seize up when you
stop, but that wheel won't come off. I have seen the rear wheel
fall off a Mustang, which is solid axle. The axle broke right
behind the hub plate, and the wheel. with the hub in it, slid
right off...

When a wheel bearing is bad, you will hear it growl. The pitch will
go up and down with speed, and may subside with braking, as it
pulls the bearing straight.

Very well-constructed explanation, +1.

I learned about that 3rd bearing on my wife's Santa Fe. I'm so glad to know my daughter's Rogue has one as well. I replaced both of the hub/bearing combos and the growl was still there. Innerweb research showed an intermediate shaft. Yay! I ordered a genuine NOS Hyundai intermediate shaft from ebay but had to have a shop replace it as I had just had shoulder surgery. Fun fact: the "guaranteed to fit" int shaft from Rock Auto did not, in fact, fit. I opened a case to return it, and by then, I had the OEM, so I sent them pictures of both side by side. They had no recourse but to take it back and refund my money. Hopefully the Nissan replacement is more straightforward and I can go with aftermarket should the need ever arise.

Found the culprit. There’s play where the drivers side cv axle enters the differential.
Couldn’t hear anything at the hub with the stethoscope, but my technique could definitely use work, had a hard time not getting noise from the earpiece “hoses” running together, or the tip of the probe rotations on the hub as it spun.
Anyway…I went through the front axle section of the service manual and couldn’t see anything about a bearing. Am I looking in the wrong section? Or is a cv replacement what’s required here?

The bearing is in a bracket halfway between the CVT case and the wheel, but the shafts are an assembly. If the inner or outer CV is shot it can be rebuilt (if you want to go through the effort), but when you replace the whole shaft the carrier bearing is part of it. The reason for the 2-piece CV is to limit torque steer, which is present in all FWD's because of unequal axle lengths. One axle "winds up" more than the other under acceleration, causing the car to steer toward the side with more windup and then snap back if the throttle is dropped. Some OEM's address that by making the longer axle tubular and the shorter one solid. Since tubes are inherently stiffer, they wind up less and equalize things. Nissan's solution instead is a very stiff half shaft extending from the case, allowing equal-length axles extending to the wheels. Both approaches work well, but the Nissan way requires a bearing in mid-shaft on the long side. That's what the carrier is there for.

It's still a bad design, introducing another failure point.

Both axles are tubular, one solid or hollow, makes the
hollow one weaker. The equal length is not 100%
accurate. The passenger side is very long. Carrier
type bearing or not, it's still much longer.

I know what you do mean, they're equal from the driver
side to trans, and passenger side to bearing. Still, that
one long shaft is one long shaft. There is more then 6"
inside the transmission on the passenger side too.

I don't like the design at all. The only reason it is not
one long shaft is because it would act like a torsion bar
as one long piece, so they had to make it two pieces.

PowerslavePA wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:28 am

I don't like the design at all. The only reason it is not
one long shaft is because it would act like a torsion bar
as one long piece, so they had to make it two pieces.

Yah, the torsion bar thing is exactly what causes windup. The longer bar twists further than the shorter one and torque steer results. While it's true that a tube is much weaker than a solid shaft in terms of absolute yield force, it's also much stronger (stiffer) in response to torsion. That's why the tube-solid combination works on cars using unequal lengths. However, that's always a compromise in engineering terms. The degree of windup on each side will differ depending on the applied torque, which means you'll always be stuck with some degree of torque steer at some throttle setting. The absolute yield is never an issue unless the axle is under-designed for the amount of torque produced by the drivetrain, and you rarely see that. Tubular axles twisting are usually the result of performance guys overdoing what they're doing.


I'm not crazy about the Nissan design but I'm not adverse to it either. The inner shaft is very rigid from a torsion standpoint compared to the solid outer shafts. So while the carrier bearing does add an extra failure point, from the standpoint of how well it works at controlling torque steer, I think it's better than the tube-solid approach. It isn't a "tuned" compromise like tube-solid, instead relying on geometry and not materials. So long as the inner halfshaft is sufficiently rigid, there's never any torque steer at all.

Hm, so I've gone through the axle replacement procedure starting at FAX-57, and I've got a few questions.
Primarily, should I be concerned about the location of the play? It's not play in one of the joints, it's literally where that "can" part of the axle sits in the transfer case, which has me a bit worried now there's something wrong INSIDE the tx.
If the problem is (hopefully) just the CV, do I NEED the special tools they spec in the procedure? Could I get it out without that slide hammer tool/attachment?
And how much risk is there to damaging the oil seal when putting the new CV back? (do I need that tool that protects it).
Finally, I don't see a listing for any kind of front seal under drivetrain, I'm looking for the "output shaft seal" under Transmission, correct?

Thanks! if I get the parts ordered today they should be here by Friday so I can deal with this on the weekend.

In-and-out play where the halfshaft goes into the transfer case is usually because the carrier bearing is sloppy. The shaft itself is splined to the transfer shaft and only held in by the lock ring, which isn't meant to hold it tight. So the likely culprit in that case is the axle and carrier. Up-down-side-side play at that spot means the transfer case bearings have a problem, there should be no movement perpendicular to the axle.

If the transfer seal is good, my advice is to leave it alone. If you're careful about insertion then there's little risk of damaging it, and they're very critical about depth when you're replacing them. So it's something of a PITA and very easy to screw up. If I recall correctly you'll find the seal in with the parts drawings for the axles, and be careful to get the right one. The drawings will also show a dust seal, which isn't what you want. Whether you'll need the slide hammer is a crapshoot, sometimes they fight you and sometimes they don't. Getting the carrier bearing out of the bracket is the part that's usually most difficult, they're often seized.

Up-down-side-side play at that spot means the transfer case bearings have a problem

This is what's happening, I could move it up/down about 1/8" where it enters the transfer case.

There is no play in the CV joints themselves, they feel smooth when turning, I can't feel any grinding or roughness, and no "lateral" play, (in-out, as you say).

So that part would be the output shaft bearing, correct? Is that diy'able, or does it have to be pressed or require some disassembly of the transfer case? Definitely don't want to get into that.

And again, if that bearing has gone bad and there's play going on INSIDE the transfer case, what are the chances that it's messed up the gears in there?

Yah, that's the ring gear outer bearing, it's inside the transfer case. The FSM indicates the case doesn't need to come out to replace it, the cover just has to come off. Never actually had to do one myself, because blown transfer cases are usually way blown. For that reason, I'd take a fluid sample first to see if there's a lot of metal in it. If so, the other internals are probably a mess and you'll be better off getting a good used unit from the JY. If the metal is minimal then you could try replacing the bearing.

Ok, I'll do that before I order anything. If I end up swapping the transfer case, does that involve draining the CVT fluid? I was going to do that as well, but I'll hold off on that too until I get to the bottom of this if I may have to change it again...that stuff ain't cheap!

thanks,

No, the tranny and xfer don't share fluid on the Rogue. It is a bit of a job, though. The exhaust needs to drop and the subframe has to be lowered.

Ugh. Crossing my fingers for clean fluid then. Thanks again.

So, I’m back to thinking it’s actually the CV. I’ve driven it a bit the last couple days, and it definitely sounds and feels like a rotational thing at slower speeds. And your comments about never having done one made me question whether I’d looked closely enough. That and I couldn’t see having an issue with something inside the tx case without it imploding.
It turns out what I was thinking was play at the tx case entry, is actually play in the joint closest to it.
I can’t actually move the axle right where it enters the tx case, but there’s a tiny bit of movement there when I rock the joint, which makes sense. If there’s movement in a joint, there’s going to be some movement on the opposite ends.
But I only get play up and down, not side to side or in and out.
This is in the shorter axle on the drivers side, so no carrier bearing.

The driver's side is a completely different story because it's a single-piece shaft. Up-and-down play there is almost guaranteed to be a bad inner CV.

Yeah I’m pretty certain that’s the problem now. I’ve wanted to change the axle anyway, just because I tore up so much of the thread getting the axle nut off, I don’t feel great about how much thread the new nut had to grab.
While I’m here though, what does “axle noise” sound like? I’ve read you can get axle noise if the bearing is too tight, but the torque spec I looked up called for 188 ft/lbs which seems excessive. I havent done a lot of them, but I’d never seen one torqued so tight.

CV's make the most incredible variety of noises, I wouldn't deign to even try describing them. Clicks, clunks, whirs, whines, clatters, thumps, you name it. I don't believe I've ever heard one giggle, but pretty much anything else.

VStar650CL wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:04 pm

CV's make the most incredible variety of noises, I wouldn't deign to even try describing them. Clicks, clunks, whirs, whines, clatters, thumps, you name it. I don't believe I've ever heard one giggle, but pretty much anything else.

Steering CV Joints almosy always only make noises going around bends; the "clikity-clikity-clickity" noise.
That is because the CV joint is on a bend, and any wear in the ball bearing sockets, the
bearings make that noise as it moves by being squeezed in the worn socket under pressure.

CV joints that are on the rear axle or inner CV joints, they do not bend. When they wear, they
go out of balance, or they just break. I had a Pontiac Vibe, and the inner CV joint on my driver
side front axle never made any noise, it just tore apart. I stepped on the gas, I got a THUD, then
a nasty scraping noise, and the car would not move.

PowerslavePA wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:13 pm

CV joints that are on the rear axle or inner CV joints, they do not bend. When they wear, they
go out of balance, or they just break. I had a Pontiac Vibe, and the inner CV joint on my driver
side front axle never made any noise, it just tore apart. I stepped on the gas, I got a THUD, then
a nasty scraping noise, and the car would not move.

Agreed, the inner tripod joints often just shatter and come apart. But they also make noises unrelated to steering because they only see an angle change from bumps, not from steering input like the outers. And because the tripod is a sort of hybrid-bastardization of the pin bearing setup in a regular U-joint, when they do go bad, they can make some really weird sounds.

Well,for all intents and purposes, you can use a U-Joint when there is
not going to be any angle changes. U-Joints do not move at a constant
velocity as they angle, and it gets worse the more angle is put on it. As
you probably know, that is the reason for Constant Velocity Joints (CV-Joint).

U-Joints, I have always called them needle bearings, guess they're the same.

You could actually use a conventional U for the inners if the axles were longer. The short length of the shaft means an extreme angle change as the front end bounces up and down, more than the 7 degrees most engineers consider maximum for a conventional single U. They could use a double Cardan joint, but the tripod is simpler and accomplishes the same thing. But, those pin bearings can cause the same weird s#!t you can hear out of any conventional U, complicated by the fact that it's going places a regular U can't go. I just think it's a good thing they don't fail often, and usually break when they do instead of making technicians crazy.

So it turns out the problem wasn’t the CV after all. Swapped it, noise still there. Although the old one was definitely more loose than the new one, so I’m telling myself it needed to be changed anyway.
By process of elimination the passenger front wheel bearing was next in line. Swapped that today and it’s fixed….well, at least THAT noise is fixed. I now have a weird “wobble” under load that I first noticed yesterday, I was hoping the new bearing would take care of that as well…no such luck.

It only happens when accelerating between 70-80 km/hr, annd much more noticeable going uphill. As in, you can start to feel it as you hit 70, then between 70-80 it can get pretty violent depending on the incline, then when you top 80 it goes away. A side to to side wobble of the entire vehicle is the best way I can describe it.
It’s the first time I’ve ever experienced it, and not something you wouldn’t notice (it’s my wife’s car and she tends to not notice noises etc. but this were both in the car when it happened and she said it was the first time she felt it as well). So either it’s a whole new issue, or something I’ve messed up.
To recap, over the last few weeks I’ve swapped a front driver wheel bearing and cv axle (bearing was weeks ago, cv axle a week ago), and changed transfer case fluid (also a week ago, fluid was dark but not black, and no metal), and didn’t get this until yesterday.