to simplfy this discussion id like to leave out so ovous limitations and varaibles. im talking purly thoeritcal:
what do u guyz think is better 4WD (W/ frount 2 sterring of course) or 4 Whell Steering (W/ rear wheels spinning).... and why.
AWD vs 4 wheel steering
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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PabloHoney
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Yea, better for what?? you ae asking about two completely different things, not even remotely close IMHO. AWD has it's advantages and disadvantages, and it also depends on what type of AWD system you are talking about. ATTESSA style with active diffs, Audi style with torsen diffs, or maybe just a 60/40 or 70/30 split. AWS is overrated in my book. If you are gonna do serious autoX/road racing, most people take it off from what I understand.
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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MikeS14240sx
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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PabloHoney
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AWD cars tend to have less lateral grip compared to RWD cars. AWD cars are great if the torque split is applied correctly, as in controlled by computer, like ATTESSA on the Skyline, or whatever the name of the active diff is on the EVO. Otherwise, AWD is great for keeping a car under control by the everyday joe on the street.
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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Nismo_Freak
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theNUD... first off I cant understand your typing much less what your talking about.
Anyways, I believe you are asking if you would prefere HICAS or AWD in a sharp 90 degree turn. The answer is AWD. HICAS is overrated and will actually be counter productive to a powerful RWD car in a turn. The wheels turn out will make the car have a vague feeling and will load the outer tire which will be more likely to spin under throttle. This is why HICAS is removed.
Anyways, I believe you are asking if you would prefere HICAS or AWD in a sharp 90 degree turn. The answer is AWD. HICAS is overrated and will actually be counter productive to a powerful RWD car in a turn. The wheels turn out will make the car have a vague feeling and will load the outer tire which will be more likely to spin under throttle. This is why HICAS is removed.
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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The wheels turn out will make the car have a vague feeling and will load the outer tire which will be more likely to spin under throttle. This is why HICAS is rea
all super hicas cars have lsdz tho im not sure im falloring you
but forget super hicas think instead of an idealaws system and the same for awd dont think of how there applyed now and there flaws. the only differance is weather u want ur frount (stearing) wheels to spin or weather u want your rear wheels to turn in aaddition to spin but yea u know what im talking bout
all super hicas cars have lsdz tho im not sure im falloring you
but forget super hicas think instead of an idealaws system and the same for awd dont think of how there applyed now and there flaws. the only differance is weather u want ur frount (stearing) wheels to spin or weather u want your rear wheels to turn in aaddition to spin but yea u know what im talking bout
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PabloHoney
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Actually I don't have any idea what you are talking about. Why the hell do you want to think about this in an ideal system, such a thing doesn't exist. The pros and cons of each system are exactly what you should be comparing, because those are what determine which is "better" (although you are comparing apples to oranges in my opinion). I don't see what it is you are trying to learn or prove in this post.
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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it think ur making it too complex. talking a touring car w/ no regard for lap time only thinking bout handling what would be better for driving a awd car or aws no dont think bout how thay are applyed surently but in a perfectly working world what would out perform the other. the only differance is weather your frount wheeles are pulling you or if ur rear wheeles are stearing in a rwd car. fundementaly would u rather ur frount wheels pull you in there dirrectin or your rear wheels help u stear round a mean corner. and i ment that nismo knew what i was saying
Ok its time to bring out the spelling detector...there is no way these are typos either...
surentlyCurrently
differanceDifference
frount wheelesFront Wheels
wheelesWheels
stearingSteering
fundementalyFundamentaly
frountFront
dirrectinDirection
It would be better to have AWD because your rear wheels are pushing the car as well as the front wheels are pulling the car and steering at the same time. Its just better logic. In my opinion AWS would cause alot of unbalance at higher speeds, which you dont want.
surentlyCurrently
differanceDifference
frount wheelesFront Wheels
wheelesWheels
stearingSteering
fundementalyFundamentaly
frountFront
dirrectinDirection
It would be better to have AWD because your rear wheels are pushing the car as well as the front wheels are pulling the car and steering at the same time. Its just better logic. In my opinion AWS would cause alot of unbalance at higher speeds, which you dont want.
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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MikeS14240sx
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This thread is like having a discussion with a 2 year old. What ever point this person is tring you make could fall on his face and he still wouldn't accept it.
Example of "fast fingers and a slow brain"
theNUDdistBUDDhist wrote:-- i dont realy stop to spell right no acutualy i dont "fast fingers not fat fingers"
Example of "fast fingers and a slow brain"
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PabloHoney
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C-Kwik
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Nismo_Freak wrote:theNUD... first off I cant understand your typing much less what your talking about.
Anyways, I believe you are asking if you would prefere HICAS or AWD in a sharp 90 degree turn. The answer is AWD. HICAS is overrated and will actually be counter productive to a powerful RWD car in a turn. The wheels turn out will make the car have a vague feeling and will load the outer tire which will be more likely to spin under throttle. This is why HICAS is removed.
I disagree here. HICAS makes two different movements on the rear wheels. First it turns the rear wheels opposite the front so that the car turns at a faster ratio. This give better initial turn in because of the slight toe-out effect on the outer rear wheel. But the rear wheels then quickly transition to point the same direction as the front wheels to provide better stability which is the effect you get from having some toe-in. And keep in mind, I don't actually consider HICAS to be steering. It doesn't actually do anything at slow speeds. It is more of an active rear toe alignment to me. It only makes small adjustments. Overpowering your rear wheels as more to do with getting on the gas too early.
AWD has it's merits. Particularly in lower traction conditions, high HP conditions and exiting turns. But even then, I'd put more on overall suspension tuning then anything else. You'll find that the suspension components and alignment settings will give better lateral grip overall. AWD will have very little benefit during a steady state corner when you are not on the gas hard. Tuned well though, an AWD car can power out of exits quite quickly. Nissan's ATTESA takes it to an even greater level by electronically distributing torque. This is almost an Equivalent to an ABS system's benefit to braking.
C-Kwik wrote:I disagree here. HICAS makes two different movements on the rear wheels. First it turns the rear wheels opposite the front so that the car turns at a faster ratio. This give better initial turn in because of the slight toe-out effect on the outer rear wheel. But the rear wheels then quickly transition to point the same direction as the front wheels to provide better stability which is the effect you get from having some toe-in. And keep in mind, I don't actually consider HICAS to be steering. It doesn't actually do anything at slow speeds. It is more of an active rear toe alignment to me. It only makes small adjustments. Overpowering your rear wheels as more to do with getting on the gas too early.
AWD has it's merits. Particularly in lower traction conditions, high HP conditions and exiting turns. But even then, I'd put more on overall suspension tuning then anything else. You'll find that the suspension components and alignment settings will give better lateral grip overall. AWD will have very little benefit during a steady state corner when you are not on the gas hard. Tuned well though, an AWD car can power out of exits quite quickly. Nissan's ATTESA takes it to an even greater level by electronically distributing torque. This is almost an Equivalent to an ABS system's benefit to braking.
dayum....so basically its all preference!
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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--lep--i wouldnt say that but yea.
--c-k-- yea thats y this hole thing started when i bought my 2nd s13 i was reading tho the manuals an stumbled on S-hicas yea its not aws but has a lesser affect. so i started wondering if whiel exicuting a turn it would be better to have ur frnt wheels spin (awd) or ur rear wheels steer (aws)but if u think the physics of id aws would be more "sporty" in the same sence rwd is "sporty" fallow this trough u go into a 90deg left turn now if your on the accel. easying offor the turn. u turn the wheel entering the corner and lock-up the fronts. in aws or even hicas (assuming ur going fast enough to activace it. does n e 1 know the speeds? i no its lo speed - no med speed = oposite front and high = same as front it would seem logical 0-30 than 30-60 an 60-90 ??) so back to the car u have ur fronts lockedup and turned all ur momentum has been sent to the rear end now if your rear wheels are turned the opsite way u can spin in circles w/ the front tires locked up and i dont mean 1 or 1 360z but if u can keep the peorer speed it should spin like a mother ** and isnt that y rwd is "sporty" now as for awd...
ovbously u cant do that in an awd car i wont even bother listing y. no back to entering the turn u ease off the assel. and turn the wheel now potentualy u can zip trou the turn faster (yeilding fwd effect) now since i dont beliece theres an awd system that doesnt use 3 differentals (LSD) than i would think ur wheels wouldnt skip unless due to ecessive accelortion. thus the rediscovery of modern technology. now the real question is, would u rather zip though turns w/ awd or would u rather carve the shi t out of them but the affect of both in the big pictuer would be thatu cant enter a turn in awd as fast as u would in aws becuase you rear wheels arnt helping you thro it. the more i think bout it it doesnt even realy matter because its exactly even. Back to that 90 deg turn the first 45degs are where the aws will shine sincethats where it turns and the 2nd 45degs is where awd shines cuz now your strighting out thus acceloraTING....
**thinking**
but i still say aws.if u play w/ numbers into the idea w/ aws u can aproche the turn faster meaning ur going into it @ 40 now in awd u cant do that with out transfering all the wieght to the outside rear. so say u go in at 35 and u lose 5mph at 45deg so ur half way trough it at 30 and now accelorating
in the aws say u lose the same amount of speed at 45deg ur at 35 and acellorating. granted awd will provide more traction but olny if its alltime awd not when u lose traction.
what do u guyz think? -- MoNK
--c-k-- yea thats y this hole thing started when i bought my 2nd s13 i was reading tho the manuals an stumbled on S-hicas yea its not aws but has a lesser affect. so i started wondering if whiel exicuting a turn it would be better to have ur frnt wheels spin (awd) or ur rear wheels steer (aws)but if u think the physics of id aws would be more "sporty" in the same sence rwd is "sporty" fallow this trough u go into a 90deg left turn now if your on the accel. easying offor the turn. u turn the wheel entering the corner and lock-up the fronts. in aws or even hicas (assuming ur going fast enough to activace it. does n e 1 know the speeds? i no its lo speed - no med speed = oposite front and high = same as front it would seem logical 0-30 than 30-60 an 60-90 ??) so back to the car u have ur fronts lockedup and turned all ur momentum has been sent to the rear end now if your rear wheels are turned the opsite way u can spin in circles w/ the front tires locked up and i dont mean 1 or 1 360z but if u can keep the peorer speed it should spin like a mother ** and isnt that y rwd is "sporty" now as for awd...
ovbously u cant do that in an awd car i wont even bother listing y. no back to entering the turn u ease off the assel. and turn the wheel now potentualy u can zip trou the turn faster (yeilding fwd effect) now since i dont beliece theres an awd system that doesnt use 3 differentals (LSD) than i would think ur wheels wouldnt skip unless due to ecessive accelortion. thus the rediscovery of modern technology. now the real question is, would u rather zip though turns w/ awd or would u rather carve the shi t out of them but the affect of both in the big pictuer would be thatu cant enter a turn in awd as fast as u would in aws becuase you rear wheels arnt helping you thro it. the more i think bout it it doesnt even realy matter because its exactly even. Back to that 90 deg turn the first 45degs are where the aws will shine sincethats where it turns and the 2nd 45degs is where awd shines cuz now your strighting out thus acceloraTING....
**thinking**
but i still say aws.if u play w/ numbers into the idea w/ aws u can aproche the turn faster meaning ur going into it @ 40 now in awd u cant do that with out transfering all the wieght to the outside rear. so say u go in at 35 and u lose 5mph at 45deg so ur half way trough it at 30 and now accelorating
in the aws say u lose the same amount of speed at 45deg ur at 35 and acellorating. granted awd will provide more traction but olny if its alltime awd not when u lose traction.
what do u guyz think? -- MoNK
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PabloHoney
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Ok, you are assuming that AWD is a 50/50 split all the time, it completely depends on what type of AWD system you are talking about. Also, AWS doesn't necessarily mean that you can enter a corner faster than if you don't have it. It is more for stability while cornering. Why would you lock up the front tires when taking a turn? The minute your tires lock up you should be off the brakes anyway, cuz you are just gonna slide of the track with your front wheels locked, with or without AWS. You also said that you can "zip trough a turn faster" with FWD?? FWD cars tend to push through corners, making them slower through the turn. Have you ever road raced or autocrossed? It doesn't sound like it to me, not to be a di(k, just wondering. And lastly, why do you think AWD loads the the outside rear tire?? When coming into a turn, the outside front tire is loaded the most. ATTESSA is probably one of the best AWD systems out there, and that is on "partial" AWD. I think you might need to do some research.
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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"Ok, you are assuming that AWD is a 50/50 split all the time, it completely depends on what type of AWD system you are talking about. " -- yea thats y i mention fulltime awd
"Also, AWS doesn't necessarily mean that you can enter a corner faster than if you don't have it. " --*see next*
"It is more for stability while cornering. " -- exactly the same kinda stibility the lets you take a corner faster. u wouldnt have to wory bout spining out (your rear end due to puting higher load (speed) in a derection the tires wont turn. because in aws thay will turn keeping the traction)
"Why would you lock up the front tires when taking a turn? " -- because its1 of the first steps you take to spin your car around but its not the only thing u have to do -- "so back to the car u have ur fronts lockedup and turned all ur momentum has been sent to the rear end " (your trying to spin you car around not take a 90deg corner. i used this example to say y i think aws is more sporty. do u see what im saying? )
"The minute your tires lock up you should be off the brakes anyway,..." --i think u sayed this cuz u were thinking i was saying some thing im not. but your front brakes wouldnt losk up is you wernt on them. and your on them to lock them up.
"cuz you are just gonna slide of the track with your front wheels locked, " -- huh? im not getting this 1. in aws ur rear wheels will be turned in acording to your speed and the direction ur stearing in. and unless u go 100 mph to spin ur *** end i cant see y you would slide off the trak.
"with or without AWS." -- how is that?
"You also said that you can "zip trough a turn faster" with FWD?? " no i didnt
"FWD cars tend to push through corners, making them slower through the turn. " -- i dont undersatand what u mean by "push through corners" but i do see how when at the 45deg mark to acellotating in an fwd or alltime awd would "pull" your car out of the turn since the front wheels are spining the the diwwection of the turn (member 45deg mark )
"Have you ever road raced or autocrossed? " -- autoX no but it depends on what u mean by "road raced" if u mean hi speed hiwhway racing than yes. If you mean Moderate speed (high cornering speeds) than yess to that too. with or with out other cars.
"not to be a di(k, just wondering. " nor do i. no offence taken. i just think were on differ pages not thinking the same thing thats all
"And lastly, why do you think AWD loads the the outside rear tire?? " -- see like this. thats not what i meant. i mean cornering awd aws or niether when u turn your wheel your shifting wieth in you car to the outside shocks. but this is prime example oh how good lsd or lsd based awd can be.
"When coming into a turn, the outside front tire is loaded the most. " -- yea your right. i must have been thinking or meaning while spining your car around thats when the weighht is in the rear
"ATTESSA is probably one of the best AWD systems out there, and that is on "partial" AWD. I think you might need to do some research." -- i have had sever posts and topics requesting recomendations for books, websites, info, and other educational discusions like this. but in regards to VLSD as a form of LSD its acutaly inferoir to other LSDs suchass torsen LSD
Torsen LSD --http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_scho ... _4wd_2.htm
ALTEEZE -- http://autozine.kyul.net/techn...1.htm
ATTESSA insnt an alltime awd tho. funnt thing is that freeking car has suped hicas too ! awd and aws just thing i do agree that it is a great thing (ATTeSSA) but only in its sophication. notr mechanly nissan enginers are freekin awsome. acutaly now that i think bout it. the skyline had awd the same year my car had aws (well hicas n e way u get the point) but thay put aws on the best moddles instead of awd and awd w/ vlsds isnt very expansive. so the fact that thay chose aws instead of awd kinda backs my oppionin bout aws.
u sayed i should do some reasurch do u have some good links? -- MoNK
"Also, AWS doesn't necessarily mean that you can enter a corner faster than if you don't have it. " --*see next*
"It is more for stability while cornering. " -- exactly the same kinda stibility the lets you take a corner faster. u wouldnt have to wory bout spining out (your rear end due to puting higher load (speed) in a derection the tires wont turn. because in aws thay will turn keeping the traction)
"Why would you lock up the front tires when taking a turn? " -- because its1 of the first steps you take to spin your car around but its not the only thing u have to do -- "so back to the car u have ur fronts lockedup and turned all ur momentum has been sent to the rear end " (your trying to spin you car around not take a 90deg corner. i used this example to say y i think aws is more sporty. do u see what im saying? )
"The minute your tires lock up you should be off the brakes anyway,..." --i think u sayed this cuz u were thinking i was saying some thing im not. but your front brakes wouldnt losk up is you wernt on them. and your on them to lock them up.
"cuz you are just gonna slide of the track with your front wheels locked, " -- huh? im not getting this 1. in aws ur rear wheels will be turned in acording to your speed and the direction ur stearing in. and unless u go 100 mph to spin ur *** end i cant see y you would slide off the trak.
"with or without AWS." -- how is that?
"You also said that you can "zip trough a turn faster" with FWD?? " no i didnt
"FWD cars tend to push through corners, making them slower through the turn. " -- i dont undersatand what u mean by "push through corners" but i do see how when at the 45deg mark to acellotating in an fwd or alltime awd would "pull" your car out of the turn since the front wheels are spining the the diwwection of the turn (member 45deg mark )
"Have you ever road raced or autocrossed? " -- autoX no but it depends on what u mean by "road raced" if u mean hi speed hiwhway racing than yes. If you mean Moderate speed (high cornering speeds) than yess to that too. with or with out other cars.
"not to be a di(k, just wondering. " nor do i. no offence taken. i just think were on differ pages not thinking the same thing thats all
"And lastly, why do you think AWD loads the the outside rear tire?? " -- see like this. thats not what i meant. i mean cornering awd aws or niether when u turn your wheel your shifting wieth in you car to the outside shocks. but this is prime example oh how good lsd or lsd based awd can be.
"When coming into a turn, the outside front tire is loaded the most. " -- yea your right. i must have been thinking or meaning while spining your car around thats when the weighht is in the rear
"ATTESSA is probably one of the best AWD systems out there, and that is on "partial" AWD. I think you might need to do some research." -- i have had sever posts and topics requesting recomendations for books, websites, info, and other educational discusions like this. but in regards to VLSD as a form of LSD its acutaly inferoir to other LSDs suchass torsen LSD
Torsen LSD --http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_scho ... _4wd_2.htm
ALTEEZE -- http://autozine.kyul.net/techn...1.htm
ATTESSA insnt an alltime awd tho. funnt thing is that freeking car has suped hicas too ! awd and aws just thing i do agree that it is a great thing (ATTeSSA) but only in its sophication. notr mechanly nissan enginers are freekin awsome. acutaly now that i think bout it. the skyline had awd the same year my car had aws (well hicas n e way u get the point) but thay put aws on the best moddles instead of awd and awd w/ vlsds isnt very expansive. so the fact that thay chose aws instead of awd kinda backs my oppionin bout aws.
u sayed i should do some reasurch do u have some good links? -- MoNK
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C-Kwik
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theNUDdistBUDDhist wrote:--lep--i wouldnt say that but yea.
--c-k-- yea thats y this hole thing started when i bought my 2nd s13 i was reading tho the manuals an stumbled on S-hicas yea its not aws but has a lesser affect. so i started wondering if whiel exicuting a turn it would be better to have ur frnt wheels spin (awd) or ur rear wheels steer (aws)but if u think the physics of id aws would be more "sporty" in the same sence rwd is "sporty" fallow this trough u go into a 90deg left turn now if your on the accel. easying offor the turn. u turn the wheel entering the corner and lock-up the fronts. in aws or even hicas (assuming ur going fast enough to activace it. does n e 1 know the speeds? i no its lo speed - no med speed = oposite front and high = same as front it would seem logical 0-30 than 30-60 an 60-90 ??) so back to the car u have ur fronts lockedup and turned all ur momentum has been sent to the rear end now if your rear wheels are turned the opsite way u can spin in circles w/ the front tires locked up and i dont mean 1 or 1 360z but if u can keep the peorer speed it should spin like a mother ** and isnt that y rwd is "sporty" now as for awd...
ovbously u cant do that in an awd car i wont even bother listing y. no back to entering the turn u ease off the assel. and turn the wheel now potentualy u can zip trou the turn faster (yeilding fwd effect) now since i dont beliece theres an awd system that doesnt use 3 differentals (LSD) than i would think ur wheels wouldnt skip unless due to ecessive accelortion. thus the rediscovery of modern technology. now the real question is, would u rather zip though turns w/ awd or would u rather carve the shi t out of them but the affect of both in the big pictuer would be thatu cant enter a turn in awd as fast as u would in aws becuase you rear wheels arnt helping you thro it. the more i think bout it it doesnt even realy matter because its exactly even. Back to that 90 deg turn the first 45degs are where the aws will shine sincethats where it turns and the 2nd 45degs is where awd shines cuz now your strighting out thus acceloraTING....
**thinking**
but i still say aws.if u play w/ numbers into the idea w/ aws u can aproche the turn faster meaning ur going into it @ 40 now in awd u cant do that with out transfering all the wieght to the outside rear. so say u go in at 35 and u lose 5mph at 45deg so ur half way trough it at 30 and now accelorating
in the aws say u lose the same amount of speed at 45deg ur at 35 and acellorating. granted awd will provide more traction but olny if its alltime awd not when u lose traction.
what do u guyz think? -- MoNK
That can really only be answered with "just depends". Driving style, available traction, power, twpe of racing all have an effect on how you might want to set up your car. As far as locking up front wheels the rear wheel's range of steering motion will really be so slight that it will not be bringing the rear around. I believe the Super HICAS systems are active at over 30 mph. Or at least somewhere around that. But to clarify how Super HICAS works, say you turn your steering wheel to the right as you are entering a turn. The rear wheels will angle slightly that the front of the rear wheels point left. Then it will quickly switch to pointing right(into the turn). And the system does this at any speed above the minimum speed. It does not do one direction at certain speeds and then the other at higher speeds. So even if you locked up the front wheels, since the rears would be pointed in, then the rear end would not be coming around. If you lock up entering a turn, either you are on the brakes to hard or you are braking too late and are trying to slow down the car faster than possible. Either way, neither HICAS or AWD can fix that. And even ABS is limited as it will only help reduce your braking distance and help you maintain control. But you will likely take a poor line through the turn.
AWD cars can still be rotated through a turn. There are other movements and set-ups that induce oversteer. Power oversteer on a RWD car is the only type of oversteer a FWD car and most AWD(depending on Bias) cars can't do.
As far as the 1st 45 degrees, all else equal, the AWS may not make as much of a difference as you think. It depends on the overall set-up of the car and the car's static alignment settings. Stock for stock, perhaps it might, but I only say that with the assumption that Nissan Engineers did a good job of tuning it. I can see some bypassing HICAS as it may not work well with custom set-ups. It may create some unpredictable set-ups depending on how you set your alignment. Remember that HICAS was tuned to a specific suspension set-up.
As far as weight transfer, it's doubtful that the HICAS system will drastically change weight transfer charateristics. Nor will being AWD in that of itself. In any kind of a long steady turn, a FWD car, a RWD car and AWD car would all have the same handling characteristics since you won't really be accelerating or braking, but holding the speed steady. It's exiting the turn where you would see differences. Under power FWD vehicle tend toward understeer. RWD cars can tend towards oversteer. AWD can just depend based on bias.
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C-Kwik
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[quote=" theNUDdistBUDDhist
"Also, AWS doesn't necessarily mean that you can enter a corner faster than if you don't have it. " --*see next*
"It is more for stability while cornering. " -- exactly the same kinda stibility the lets you take a corner faster. u wouldnt have to wory bout spining out (your rear end due to puting higher load (speed) in a derection the tires wont turn. because in aws thay will turn keeping the traction)
I agree, but doesn't mean you have more grip either. Overall grip will generally allow you to turn faster. And sometimes the tradeoff for using toe-in to stabilize handling is slow-turn in and perhaps some understeer.
"Why would you lock up the front tires when taking a turn? " -- because its1 of the first steps you take to spin your car around but its not the only thing u have to do -- "so back to the car u have ur fronts lockedup and turned all ur momentum has been sent to the rear end " (your trying to spin you car around not take a 90deg corner. i used this example to say y i think aws is more sporty. do u see what im saying? )
Actually if you lock up the fronts entering a turn, you're less likely to spin, but rather keep sliding forward.
"The minute your tires lock up you should be off the brakes anyway,..." --i think u sayed this cuz u were thinking i was saying some thing im not. but your front brakes wouldnt losk up is you wernt on them. and your on them to lock them up.
I think he was just pointing out that if you lock up, you should back off the brake to get the tires spinning again.
"cuz you are just gonna slide of the track with your front wheels locked, " -- huh? im not getting this 1. in aws ur rear wheels will be turned in acording to your speed and the direction ur stearing in. and unless u go 100 mph to spin ur *** end i cant see y you would slide off the trak.
Read my last post. I think you misunderstand what HICAS actually does.
"with or without AWS." -- how is that?
Again go to my last post. But really, even with AWD and AWS, if you go too fast into a turn, you will not be able to make the turn.
"FWD cars tend to push through corners, making them slower through the turn. " -- i dont undersatand what u mean by "push through corners" but i do see how when at the 45deg mark to acellotating in an fwd or alltime awd would "pull" your car out of the turn since the front wheels are spining the the diwwection of the turn (member 45deg mark )
Actually, if you accelerate too hard in a FWD car when exiting a turn, you can induce understeer heavily. The reason is that the harder you accelerate, the more weight you transfer away from the front wheels. Which leaves less traction for both accelerating and turning.
"Have you ever road raced or autocrossed? " -- autoX no but it depends on what u mean by "road raced" if u mean hi speed hiwhway racing than yes. If you mean Moderate speed (high cornering speeds) than yess to that too. with or with out other cars.
Get onto a race track. You'll find the skills you need are much more technical on a race track. Consider that highways are not as technically challenging in design as highways tend to be designed with ease of travel and safety in mind. Race tracks are usually made to provide some challenges. Most highways do not have a string of turns. Nor do highways tend to allow you to use the entire width of the road safely. On a track, it is important to know the track and adjust your lines through it to promote the highest average speed. Any traffic you encounter will be with those that have the same purpose you do as opposed to normal traffic which has people just getting from point a to b at a leisurely and safe pace. You'll likely find yourself humbled by some stock Honda in the hands of a good driver, even if you had a great suspension set-up. It is just as much driver as it is car.
[/quote]
"Also, AWS doesn't necessarily mean that you can enter a corner faster than if you don't have it. " --*see next*
"It is more for stability while cornering. " -- exactly the same kinda stibility the lets you take a corner faster. u wouldnt have to wory bout spining out (your rear end due to puting higher load (speed) in a derection the tires wont turn. because in aws thay will turn keeping the traction)
I agree, but doesn't mean you have more grip either. Overall grip will generally allow you to turn faster. And sometimes the tradeoff for using toe-in to stabilize handling is slow-turn in and perhaps some understeer.
"Why would you lock up the front tires when taking a turn? " -- because its1 of the first steps you take to spin your car around but its not the only thing u have to do -- "so back to the car u have ur fronts lockedup and turned all ur momentum has been sent to the rear end " (your trying to spin you car around not take a 90deg corner. i used this example to say y i think aws is more sporty. do u see what im saying? )
Actually if you lock up the fronts entering a turn, you're less likely to spin, but rather keep sliding forward.
"The minute your tires lock up you should be off the brakes anyway,..." --i think u sayed this cuz u were thinking i was saying some thing im not. but your front brakes wouldnt losk up is you wernt on them. and your on them to lock them up.
I think he was just pointing out that if you lock up, you should back off the brake to get the tires spinning again.
"cuz you are just gonna slide of the track with your front wheels locked, " -- huh? im not getting this 1. in aws ur rear wheels will be turned in acording to your speed and the direction ur stearing in. and unless u go 100 mph to spin ur *** end i cant see y you would slide off the trak.
Read my last post. I think you misunderstand what HICAS actually does.
"with or without AWS." -- how is that?
Again go to my last post. But really, even with AWD and AWS, if you go too fast into a turn, you will not be able to make the turn.
"FWD cars tend to push through corners, making them slower through the turn. " -- i dont undersatand what u mean by "push through corners" but i do see how when at the 45deg mark to acellotating in an fwd or alltime awd would "pull" your car out of the turn since the front wheels are spining the the diwwection of the turn (member 45deg mark )
Actually, if you accelerate too hard in a FWD car when exiting a turn, you can induce understeer heavily. The reason is that the harder you accelerate, the more weight you transfer away from the front wheels. Which leaves less traction for both accelerating and turning.
"Have you ever road raced or autocrossed? " -- autoX no but it depends on what u mean by "road raced" if u mean hi speed hiwhway racing than yes. If you mean Moderate speed (high cornering speeds) than yess to that too. with or with out other cars.
Get onto a race track. You'll find the skills you need are much more technical on a race track. Consider that highways are not as technically challenging in design as highways tend to be designed with ease of travel and safety in mind. Race tracks are usually made to provide some challenges. Most highways do not have a string of turns. Nor do highways tend to allow you to use the entire width of the road safely. On a track, it is important to know the track and adjust your lines through it to promote the highest average speed. Any traffic you encounter will be with those that have the same purpose you do as opposed to normal traffic which has people just getting from point a to b at a leisurely and safe pace. You'll likely find yourself humbled by some stock Honda in the hands of a good driver, even if you had a great suspension set-up. It is just as much driver as it is car.
[/quote]
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float_6969
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OK, from a guy with experience. I've autocrossed imprezza's and my last 240 had HICAS. The HICAS was WAY to intrusive in the turn, and the quick changes in direction that are incountered, the HICAS can't keep up. It doesn't kick in until 30mph, wich happens to be about halfway through 2nd gear, wich is the gear you spend all of you're time in in autocross. It also made it hard to control the car. But, indefense, you have to learn how to drive it. If you try and control it, you'll hate it. You have to trust it, and that takes time and some learning. It also helps if you throw some polyurathane bushings in the rear, but that kinda defeats the pourpose, doesn't it? As for AWD, I don't like understeer, and it just felt too much like a FWD car to me in the turns. Granted, I was driving a 98 Imprezza and it definatly wasn't equiped with ATTESSA, so I can't speak for that. But as far as I'm concerned, in a race environment, I don't want either. I want to drive the car, not a computer. If I wanted a computer to drive the car, I'd buy gt4 and a ps2. That's my $.02
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
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"That can really only be answered with "just depends". " yea most of my posts are ending that way
"As far as locking up front wheels the rear wheel's range of steering motion will really be so slight that it will not be bringing the rear around. " -- yea in hicas. witch isnt a compleat aws system. in a tru aws car the rear wheels would turn more than the 2deg hicas does. so that wange of stearing motion would be more.
"But to clarify how Super HICAS works, say you turn your steering wheel to the right as you are entering a turn. The rear wheels will angle slightly that the front of the rear wheels point left" -- u lost me. in moterate speeds the rear wheels turn the oposite dirrection (a couple of degrees), in an effort to help you spin around the turn. (this is what i mean if you think past hicas and think aws the rear end isnt turnoing 2degs no more.) At High speeds the rear wheels turn the same as the front. ie your not draging your rear end its turning w/ u if you were looking down on the top of the car. i would be aimed @ 0/360/North now all your wheels are aimed at say.. 345degres (almost Northwest, North North)
"It does not do one direction at certain speeds and then the other at higher speeds. " -- thats not what im saying
"So even if you locked up the front wheels, since the rears would be pointed in" -- No If you take a corner nomatter l/r witch ever way the front wheels is "IN" unless ur trying to spin you car at excessive speeds. (thats prob exactly who that do that too) so mod. speed front wheels "in" rear Wheels "out"
" If you lock up entering a turn, either you are on the brakes to hard or you are braking too late and are trying to slow down the car faster than possible. " -- when you spin your rear end around do you do it on purpose or accadent. i do it on purpose but yes you are right but thats the hole point to lockup ur wheels so u can spin. its not a mistake
"Either way, neither HICAS or AWD can fix that. And even ABS is limited as it will only help reduce your braking distance and help you maintain control. But you will likely take a poor line through the turn." -- u misunder stood
"AWD cars can still be rotated through a turn" huh? are you talking bout spining your rear end around? if so it would work well. thats like "power braking" butw/ ur ebrake +D
"As far as the 1st 45 degrees, all else equal, the AWS may not make as much of a difference as you think. It depends on the overall set-up of the car and the car's static alignment settings. " -- i dont know exactly what your saying but i dissagree. 1 thats the hole reason thay use the s-hicas cuz it makes a big differance. 2 think bout it. u take any corner for example. if you rear wheels dont turn there just being draged across the pavement thus loosing traction as where that 1 or 2 degrees of hi cas will help keep it. all of that is genaric and standard regardless of static alinment.
"Stock for stock, perhaps it might, but I only say that with the assumption that Nissan Engineers did a good job of tuning it. " -- huh stock for stock? dont underestomate the execelant job the nissan enginers did / do. the Zs whopmed as. the GTR, the base line skyline and awd / aws car electronicaly controled, common dude. the maxima a freekin sadan makes the same hp and whiegh less than the 93 bad as sh itstains i call em the 5.0 i say we have a NISSAN DAY and make it a international holiday, free gas, no work, an alotta driving.
**stoping to eat**
"I can see some bypassing HICAS as it may not work well with custom set-ups. " -- some what?
"It may create some unpredictable set-ups depending on how you set your alignment. Remember that HICAS was tuned to a specific suspension set-up." -- well i dont imagin any 1 wanting a non hicas compatably setup
"As far as weight transfer, it's doubtful that the HICAS system will drastically change weight transfer charateristics" it will if it changes how the car handels.
"Nor will being AWD in that of itself. " awd was built on lsd (lol maby that was the engineres secret) it wont change weight trans fer but it will react to it, and the action of turning
"In any kind of a long steady turn, a FWD car, a RWD car and AWD car would all have the same handling characteristics " -- http://autozine.kyul.net/techn...5.htm
". FWD cars has the front wheel's slip angle > rear wheel's. This result in Understeer.
RWD cars has the front wheel's slip angle < rear wheel's. This result in Oversteer.
4WD cars, if the front / rear torque split is equal, has equal F/R slip angles, thus result in Neutral steer.
"since you won't really be accelerating or braking, but holding the speed steady. " -- you dont accel, or brake in ur turns?
"Under power FWD vehicle tend toward understeer. RWD cars can tend towards oversteer. AWD can just depend based on bias." u just sayed thay havre the same choristics.
"As far as locking up front wheels the rear wheel's range of steering motion will really be so slight that it will not be bringing the rear around. " -- yea in hicas. witch isnt a compleat aws system. in a tru aws car the rear wheels would turn more than the 2deg hicas does. so that wange of stearing motion would be more.
"But to clarify how Super HICAS works, say you turn your steering wheel to the right as you are entering a turn. The rear wheels will angle slightly that the front of the rear wheels point left" -- u lost me. in moterate speeds the rear wheels turn the oposite dirrection (a couple of degrees), in an effort to help you spin around the turn. (this is what i mean if you think past hicas and think aws the rear end isnt turnoing 2degs no more.) At High speeds the rear wheels turn the same as the front. ie your not draging your rear end its turning w/ u if you were looking down on the top of the car. i would be aimed @ 0/360/North now all your wheels are aimed at say.. 345degres (almost Northwest, North North)
"It does not do one direction at certain speeds and then the other at higher speeds. " -- thats not what im saying
"So even if you locked up the front wheels, since the rears would be pointed in" -- No If you take a corner nomatter l/r witch ever way the front wheels is "IN" unless ur trying to spin you car at excessive speeds. (thats prob exactly who that do that too) so mod. speed front wheels "in" rear Wheels "out"
" If you lock up entering a turn, either you are on the brakes to hard or you are braking too late and are trying to slow down the car faster than possible. " -- when you spin your rear end around do you do it on purpose or accadent. i do it on purpose but yes you are right but thats the hole point to lockup ur wheels so u can spin. its not a mistake
"Either way, neither HICAS or AWD can fix that. And even ABS is limited as it will only help reduce your braking distance and help you maintain control. But you will likely take a poor line through the turn." -- u misunder stood
"AWD cars can still be rotated through a turn" huh? are you talking bout spining your rear end around? if so it would work well. thats like "power braking" butw/ ur ebrake +D
"As far as the 1st 45 degrees, all else equal, the AWS may not make as much of a difference as you think. It depends on the overall set-up of the car and the car's static alignment settings. " -- i dont know exactly what your saying but i dissagree. 1 thats the hole reason thay use the s-hicas cuz it makes a big differance. 2 think bout it. u take any corner for example. if you rear wheels dont turn there just being draged across the pavement thus loosing traction as where that 1 or 2 degrees of hi cas will help keep it. all of that is genaric and standard regardless of static alinment.
"Stock for stock, perhaps it might, but I only say that with the assumption that Nissan Engineers did a good job of tuning it. " -- huh stock for stock? dont underestomate the execelant job the nissan enginers did / do. the Zs whopmed as. the GTR, the base line skyline and awd / aws car electronicaly controled, common dude. the maxima a freekin sadan makes the same hp and whiegh less than the 93 bad as sh itstains i call em the 5.0 i say we have a NISSAN DAY and make it a international holiday, free gas, no work, an alotta driving.
**stoping to eat**
"I can see some bypassing HICAS as it may not work well with custom set-ups. " -- some what?
"It may create some unpredictable set-ups depending on how you set your alignment. Remember that HICAS was tuned to a specific suspension set-up." -- well i dont imagin any 1 wanting a non hicas compatably setup
"As far as weight transfer, it's doubtful that the HICAS system will drastically change weight transfer charateristics" it will if it changes how the car handels.
"Nor will being AWD in that of itself. " awd was built on lsd (lol maby that was the engineres secret) it wont change weight trans fer but it will react to it, and the action of turning
"In any kind of a long steady turn, a FWD car, a RWD car and AWD car would all have the same handling characteristics " -- http://autozine.kyul.net/techn...5.htm
". FWD cars has the front wheel's slip angle > rear wheel's. This result in Understeer.
RWD cars has the front wheel's slip angle < rear wheel's. This result in Oversteer.
4WD cars, if the front / rear torque split is equal, has equal F/R slip angles, thus result in Neutral steer.
"since you won't really be accelerating or braking, but holding the speed steady. " -- you dont accel, or brake in ur turns?
"Under power FWD vehicle tend toward understeer. RWD cars can tend towards oversteer. AWD can just depend based on bias." u just sayed thay havre the same choristics.
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theNUDdistBUDDhist
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 1:04 pm
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hey slick
-- PabloHoney ---
"Actually I don't have any idea what you are talking about. " -- yes
"Why the hell do you want to think about this in an ideal system, such a thing doesn't exist. " -- imagin if all the people before us tho this way throgh out humanity. we would still be in the stoneage. hence its a wast of time to invent things...
". The pros and cons of each system are exactly what you should be comparing, because those are what determine which is "better" " -- thats what im trying to do w/ the purpose of this post
"I don't see what it is you are trying to learn or prove in this post." ...
-- MikeS14240sx --"This thread is like having a discussion with a 2 year old. " -- yes it is MikeS14240sx
"What ever point this person is tring you make could fall on his face and he still wouldn't accept it." -- lol r u sure what was ment for this thread? lol 1. if i was trying to make a point i would have to first understod it rite? 2. lol why wouldnt i be accepting my own point? +D
"Example of "fast fingers and a slow brain"" well that makes you 3 for 3 +D
-- PabloHoney ---"So very, very true."
-- Lepchitz1--"HAHAHAHA!!"
well now i have 1 question how is it im the dumaass? thanks for the laughs guyz . try not to be soo judemental next time aye. and isnt it even dumber to make ppl not like you? lol.... -- MoNK -"HAHAHAHA!!"
-- http://autozine.kyul.net/techn...d.htm "Traction and Grip : Apparently, 4-wheel drive brings traction and grip to higher level because the tractive effort is shared by 4 wheels instead of two. Since it was introduced in 1980 to rally cars, 4WD proved its superiority in this aspect. "PabloHoney wrote:AWD cars tend to have less lateral grip compared to RWD cars. AWD cars are great if the torque split is applied correctly, as in controlled by computer, like ATTESSA on the Skyline, or whatever the name of the active diff is on the EVO. Otherwise, AWD is great for keeping a car under control by the everyday joe on the street.
"Actually I don't have any idea what you are talking about. " -- yes
"Why the hell do you want to think about this in an ideal system, such a thing doesn't exist. " -- imagin if all the people before us tho this way throgh out humanity. we would still be in the stoneage. hence its a wast of time to invent things...
". The pros and cons of each system are exactly what you should be comparing, because those are what determine which is "better" " -- thats what im trying to do w/ the purpose of this post
"I don't see what it is you are trying to learn or prove in this post." ...
-- MikeS14240sx --"This thread is like having a discussion with a 2 year old. " -- yes it is MikeS14240sx
"What ever point this person is tring you make could fall on his face and he still wouldn't accept it." -- lol r u sure what was ment for this thread? lol 1. if i was trying to make a point i would have to first understod it rite? 2. lol why wouldnt i be accepting my own point? +D
"Example of "fast fingers and a slow brain"" well that makes you 3 for 3 +D
-- PabloHoney ---"So very, very true."
-- Lepchitz1--"HAHAHAHA!!"
well now i have 1 question how is it im the dumaass? thanks for the laughs guyz . try not to be soo judemental next time aye. and isnt it even dumber to make ppl not like you? lol.... -- MoNK -"HAHAHAHA!!"
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C-Kwik
- Moderator
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[quote=" theNUDdistBUDDhist
"As far as locking up front wheels the rear wheel's range of steering motion will really be so slight that it will not be bringing the rear around. " -- yea in hicas. witch isnt a compleat aws system. in a tru aws car the rear wheels would turn more than the 2deg hicas does. so that wange of stearing motion would be more.
Were we not discussing HICAS? And frankly, I doubt you'll actually find a true AWS system in a racecar. For one, it is dangerous because the rear end would come around so fast. Secondly, afaik, most AWS systems in available cars on the market only use the AWS system at lower speeds(for ease of parking and such).
"But to clarify how Super HICAS works, say you turn your steering wheel to the right as you are entering a turn. The rear wheels will angle slightly that the front of the rear wheels point left" -- u lost me. in moterate speeds the rear wheels turn the oposite dirrection (a couple of degrees), in an effort to help you spin around the turn. (this is what i mean if you think past hicas and think aws the rear end isnt turnoing 2degs no more.) At High speeds the rear wheels turn the same as the front. ie your not draging your rear end its turning w/ u if you were looking down on the top of the car. i would be aimed @ 0/360/North now all your wheels are aimed at say.. 345degres (almost Northwest, North North)
No, once you reach the minimum speed, the hicas reacts the same way regardless of speed. It doesn't point in one direction at say, 45 mph, and then another at a higher speed, say 90 mph. At any given speed the front of the rear tire points to the outside of the turn then quickly turns to point into the turn. And again at only small angles. So when you make the turn at any speed it will point out then in.
"It does not do one direction at certain speeds and then the other at higher speeds. " -- thats not what im saying
It is...read what you said above.
"So even if you locked up the front wheels, since the rears would be pointed in" -- No If you take a corner nomatter l/r witch ever way the front wheels is "IN" unless ur trying to spin you car at excessive speeds. (thats prob exactly who that do that too) so mod. speed front wheels "in" rear Wheels "out"
You have to make sure to understand what I am explaining above to understand what I meant by this.
" If you lock up entering a turn, either you are on the brakes to hard or you are braking too late and are trying to slow down the car faster than possible. " -- when you spin your rear end around do you do it on purpose or accadent. i do it on purpose but yes you are right but thats the hole point to lockup ur wheels so u can spin. its not a mistake
I try not to spin my car. I don't intentionally lock up my wheels. There is no purpose for it if you are racing on a track. It has it's merits with a few stunts in drifting tricks. If you lock your front wheels, the front tires will not go where you point it.
"Either way, neither HICAS or AWD can fix that. And even ABS is limited as it will only help reduce your braking distance and help you maintain control. But you will likely take a poor line through the turn." -- u misunder stood
Then enlighten me.
"AWD cars can still be rotated through a turn" huh? are you talking bout spining your rear end around? if so it would work well. thats like "power braking" butw/ ur ebrake +D
sort of. I'm basically referring to over and understeer. More rotation refers more towards oversteer and less rotation refers more to understeer. Not exactly, but just referring to the fact that AWD cars can oversteer.
"As far as the 1st 45 degrees, all else equal, the AWS may not make as much of a difference as you think. It depends on the overall set-up of the car and the car's static alignment settings. " -- i dont know exactly what your saying but i dissagree. 1 thats the hole reason thay use the s-hicas cuz it makes a big differance. 2 think bout it. u take any corner for example. if you rear wheels dont turn there just being draged across the pavement thus loosing traction as where that 1 or 2 degrees of hi cas will help keep it. all of that is genaric and standard regardless of static alinment.
How do you disagree with something you don't understand. please don't post an argument just to argue. To try and clarify, modifications you make to your suspension can affect how HICAS works. A lot of suspension tuning is found in minute details of alignment settings. As far as dragging a tire, you have to understand slip angle. Anytime your car is changing directions, there is some amount of slip angle in both the front and rear wheels. And thus your tires have to drag to some extent. If it didn't, you would not turn. But I think I understand the point you were trying to make. But again, since the HICAS transistions the rear wheels to point the same direction as the front, it would be dragging more anyways.
"Stock for stock, perhaps it might, but I only say that with the assumption that Nissan Engineers did a good job of tuning it. " -- huh stock for stock? dont underestomate the execelant job the nissan enginers did / do. the Zs whopmed as. the GTR, the base line skyline and awd / aws car electronicaly controled, common dude. the maxima a freekin sadan makes the same hp and whiegh less than the 93 bad as sh itstains i call em the 5.0 i say we have a NISSAN DAY and make it a international holiday, free gas, no work, an alotta driving.
Stock Non-HICAS vs Stock HICAS. I didn't undeestimate them. In fact I was giving them the benefit of the doubt.
"I can see some bypassing HICAS as it may not work well with custom set-ups. " -- some what?
Some people.
"It may create some unpredictable set-ups depending on how you set your alignment. Remember that HICAS was tuned to a specific suspension set-up." -- well i dont imagin any 1 wanting a non hicas compatably setup
Sometimes it can not be helped. There are so many different suspension components out there. There is really no way to be absolutely sure it will work well with HICAS.
"As far as weight transfer, it's doubtful that the HICAS system will drastically change weight transfer charateristics" it will if it changes how the car handels.
Depends. But changes in spring rates and sway bar has far more dramatic changes in weight transfer than alignment settings. Alignment settings really just change contact patches and slip angles. Suspension settings change actual weight transfers.
"Nor will being AWD in that of itself. " awd was built on lsd (lol maby that was the engineres secret) it wont change weight trans fer but it will react to it, and the action of turning
Yes, but that only affects acceleration.
"In any kind of a long steady turn, a FWD car, a RWD car and AWD car would all have the same handling characteristics " -- http://autozine.kyul.net/techn...5.htm". FWD cars has the front wheel's slip angle > rear wheel's. This result in Understeer.
RWD cars has the front wheel's slip angle < rear wheel's. This result in Oversteer.
4WD cars, if the front / rear torque split is equal, has equal F/R slip angles, thus result in Neutral steer.
"since you won't really be accelerating or braking, but holding the speed steady. " -- you dont accel, or brake in ur turns?
Not in the middle of a steady state turn. All these points you make have to do with adding power to the drivewheels in a turn. Steady state cornering refers to parts of turns where you are turning at a constant radius and constant speed. So you are neither accelerating or decelerating. If you had three cars where the only differences were AWD, RWD and FWD, during steady state cornering, all would handle the same. You would notice differences as you start to add power to exit the turn.
"Under power FWD vehicle tend toward understeer. RWD cars can tend towards oversteer. AWD can just depend based on bias." u just sayed thay havre the same choristics.
No I didn't....
If you can do us all a favor and also try and use some decent grammer, it would make your posts much easier to read.[/quote]
"As far as locking up front wheels the rear wheel's range of steering motion will really be so slight that it will not be bringing the rear around. " -- yea in hicas. witch isnt a compleat aws system. in a tru aws car the rear wheels would turn more than the 2deg hicas does. so that wange of stearing motion would be more.
Were we not discussing HICAS? And frankly, I doubt you'll actually find a true AWS system in a racecar. For one, it is dangerous because the rear end would come around so fast. Secondly, afaik, most AWS systems in available cars on the market only use the AWS system at lower speeds(for ease of parking and such).
"But to clarify how Super HICAS works, say you turn your steering wheel to the right as you are entering a turn. The rear wheels will angle slightly that the front of the rear wheels point left" -- u lost me. in moterate speeds the rear wheels turn the oposite dirrection (a couple of degrees), in an effort to help you spin around the turn. (this is what i mean if you think past hicas and think aws the rear end isnt turnoing 2degs no more.) At High speeds the rear wheels turn the same as the front. ie your not draging your rear end its turning w/ u if you were looking down on the top of the car. i would be aimed @ 0/360/North now all your wheels are aimed at say.. 345degres (almost Northwest, North North)
No, once you reach the minimum speed, the hicas reacts the same way regardless of speed. It doesn't point in one direction at say, 45 mph, and then another at a higher speed, say 90 mph. At any given speed the front of the rear tire points to the outside of the turn then quickly turns to point into the turn. And again at only small angles. So when you make the turn at any speed it will point out then in.
"It does not do one direction at certain speeds and then the other at higher speeds. " -- thats not what im saying
It is...read what you said above.
"So even if you locked up the front wheels, since the rears would be pointed in" -- No If you take a corner nomatter l/r witch ever way the front wheels is "IN" unless ur trying to spin you car at excessive speeds. (thats prob exactly who that do that too) so mod. speed front wheels "in" rear Wheels "out"
You have to make sure to understand what I am explaining above to understand what I meant by this.
" If you lock up entering a turn, either you are on the brakes to hard or you are braking too late and are trying to slow down the car faster than possible. " -- when you spin your rear end around do you do it on purpose or accadent. i do it on purpose but yes you are right but thats the hole point to lockup ur wheels so u can spin. its not a mistake
I try not to spin my car. I don't intentionally lock up my wheels. There is no purpose for it if you are racing on a track. It has it's merits with a few stunts in drifting tricks. If you lock your front wheels, the front tires will not go where you point it.
"Either way, neither HICAS or AWD can fix that. And even ABS is limited as it will only help reduce your braking distance and help you maintain control. But you will likely take a poor line through the turn." -- u misunder stood
Then enlighten me.
"AWD cars can still be rotated through a turn" huh? are you talking bout spining your rear end around? if so it would work well. thats like "power braking" butw/ ur ebrake +D
sort of. I'm basically referring to over and understeer. More rotation refers more towards oversteer and less rotation refers more to understeer. Not exactly, but just referring to the fact that AWD cars can oversteer.
"As far as the 1st 45 degrees, all else equal, the AWS may not make as much of a difference as you think. It depends on the overall set-up of the car and the car's static alignment settings. " -- i dont know exactly what your saying but i dissagree. 1 thats the hole reason thay use the s-hicas cuz it makes a big differance. 2 think bout it. u take any corner for example. if you rear wheels dont turn there just being draged across the pavement thus loosing traction as where that 1 or 2 degrees of hi cas will help keep it. all of that is genaric and standard regardless of static alinment.
How do you disagree with something you don't understand. please don't post an argument just to argue. To try and clarify, modifications you make to your suspension can affect how HICAS works. A lot of suspension tuning is found in minute details of alignment settings. As far as dragging a tire, you have to understand slip angle. Anytime your car is changing directions, there is some amount of slip angle in both the front and rear wheels. And thus your tires have to drag to some extent. If it didn't, you would not turn. But I think I understand the point you were trying to make. But again, since the HICAS transistions the rear wheels to point the same direction as the front, it would be dragging more anyways.
"Stock for stock, perhaps it might, but I only say that with the assumption that Nissan Engineers did a good job of tuning it. " -- huh stock for stock? dont underestomate the execelant job the nissan enginers did / do. the Zs whopmed as. the GTR, the base line skyline and awd / aws car electronicaly controled, common dude. the maxima a freekin sadan makes the same hp and whiegh less than the 93 bad as sh itstains i call em the 5.0 i say we have a NISSAN DAY and make it a international holiday, free gas, no work, an alotta driving.
Stock Non-HICAS vs Stock HICAS. I didn't undeestimate them. In fact I was giving them the benefit of the doubt.
"I can see some bypassing HICAS as it may not work well with custom set-ups. " -- some what?
Some people.
"It may create some unpredictable set-ups depending on how you set your alignment. Remember that HICAS was tuned to a specific suspension set-up." -- well i dont imagin any 1 wanting a non hicas compatably setup
Sometimes it can not be helped. There are so many different suspension components out there. There is really no way to be absolutely sure it will work well with HICAS.
"As far as weight transfer, it's doubtful that the HICAS system will drastically change weight transfer charateristics" it will if it changes how the car handels.
Depends. But changes in spring rates and sway bar has far more dramatic changes in weight transfer than alignment settings. Alignment settings really just change contact patches and slip angles. Suspension settings change actual weight transfers.
"Nor will being AWD in that of itself. " awd was built on lsd (lol maby that was the engineres secret) it wont change weight trans fer but it will react to it, and the action of turning
Yes, but that only affects acceleration.
"In any kind of a long steady turn, a FWD car, a RWD car and AWD car would all have the same handling characteristics " -- http://autozine.kyul.net/techn...5.htm". FWD cars has the front wheel's slip angle > rear wheel's. This result in Understeer.
RWD cars has the front wheel's slip angle < rear wheel's. This result in Oversteer.
4WD cars, if the front / rear torque split is equal, has equal F/R slip angles, thus result in Neutral steer.
"since you won't really be accelerating or braking, but holding the speed steady. " -- you dont accel, or brake in ur turns?
Not in the middle of a steady state turn. All these points you make have to do with adding power to the drivewheels in a turn. Steady state cornering refers to parts of turns where you are turning at a constant radius and constant speed. So you are neither accelerating or decelerating. If you had three cars where the only differences were AWD, RWD and FWD, during steady state cornering, all would handle the same. You would notice differences as you start to add power to exit the turn.
"Under power FWD vehicle tend toward understeer. RWD cars can tend towards oversteer. AWD can just depend based on bias." u just sayed thay havre the same choristics.
No I didn't....
If you can do us all a favor and also try and use some decent grammer, it would make your posts much easier to read.[/quote]