AWD and Snow

[elwesso]

So probably in about a year or so, I'm going to be getting a new daily driver, and one of the prime candidates for that is the Infiniti M56. I'm finding that they are becoming a tremendous value on the used market, considering they were about a 65-70k car new, you can find them for low 30's right now with 50-80k miles, which considering the cars are only 2 years old that's fantastic.

Knowing where I live in Indiana where we can get copious amounts of snow, I have debated if I want/need the AWD system.

Since I've been driving, I've always just driven my RWD car with snow tires, and other than last year I've never had an issue getting stuck or anything like that. What I've found is that RWD seems to be just fine in the snow so long as the snow is not up to the frame rails.

What do you guys think?

[frapjap]

I drove my firebird in some damned deep snow with high performance all seasons. Never got really stuck, but then again if it was snowing heavily, I never bothered to really drive anywhere anyway. My belief is that with a set of Blizzaks, you'll do just fine with the RWD like you have been. I can say though, having AWD makes changing lanes on a poorly plowed highway that has those "ridges" of snow/slush between the lanes a non-event. You won't necessarily need a set of snow tires with AWD; some hi-pro all seasons will tackle the job perfectly fine.
My vote is for AWD- snow-nuts are WAY more fun in AWD than RWD.

[krash]

Honestly, you're screwed either way if the snow is too high. After you get a bunch of snow packed under the car, it doesn't matter what wheel drive you have.

[frapjap]

Honestly, you're screwed either way if the snow is too high. After you get a bunch of snow packed under the car, it doesn't matter what wheel drive you have.

I raise you:

[Bubba1]

I think given your level of driving skill and experience driving in that kinda weather, you could safely/confidently navigate snowy weather regardless of drivetrain configuration. Having watched you smile while you slid that little Bimmer at Carlisle with the traction control off, I figured you'd want to enjoy that kinda RWD fun all year round. Am I right?

[RED_DET]

AWD M56 hands down.... Anything Infiniti makes AWD vs RWD, hands down. I own a RWD G35 and a AWD G37 and would rather have the AWD system for any inclement weather condition....

[frapjap]

Also, isn't Infiniti's AWD 80/20 rear bias anyway?

[elwesso]

I think given your level of driving skill and experience driving in that kinda weather, you could safely/confidently navigate snowy weather regardless of drivetrain configuration. Having watched you smile while you slid that little Bimmer at Carlisle with the traction control off, I figured you'd want to enjoy that kinda RWD fun all year round. Am I right?

I do like having RWD fun, however there are times where I don't like having the car "wag it's tail" so much. Honestly, the hardest part may be getting used to the driver-nannies. On my Q which I drive in the winter, I have NO traction control or anything like that, just ABS. There are times where I have been concerned that if I lost momentum in the Q that I wouldn't be able to get started again.

One of the reasons I haven't bought a truck or an AWD car yet is because the way I figure, we really only have maybe 3 months of really bad winter... Half of Dec, Jan, Feb, and half of March, and within those months, there are only a handful of days where things are really bad.

The AWD system on the M does not allow me to get the sport package, which I'm thinking I might prefer the sport package over AWD for the very few instances I may need it.

[RED_DET]

They do make the M56s in AWD....

Lets be honest, the only thing the Sport package brings is Wheels, brakes, seats and paddle shifters. All but the seats can be bought afterwards and installed, probably for less money at that.

[elwesso]

They do make the M56s in AWD....

Lets be honest, the only thing the Sport package brings is Wheels, brakes, seats and paddle shifters. All but the seats can be bought afterwards and installed, probably for less money at that.

According to my research, that's not true for the 2011 or 2012's. For the 2013's it is, but I don't think I'll be looking at something that new.

[Looneybomber]

RWD. Better MPG, less cost. On the rare occasions you're gonna have a huge snow storm and anticipate needing 4wd, drive the SUV/truck.

[Bubba1]

I do like having RWD fun, however there are times where I don't like having the car "wag it's tail" so much. Honestly, the hardest part may be getting used to the driver-nannies. On my Q which I drive in the winter, I have NO traction control or anything like that, just ABS. There are times where I have been concerned that if I lost momentum in the Q that I wouldn't be able to get started again.

One of the reasons I haven't bought a truck or an AWD car yet is because the way I figure, we really only have maybe 3 months of really bad winter... Half of Dec, Jan, Feb, and half of March, and within those months, there are only a handful of days where things are really bad.

The AWD system on the M does not allow me to get the sport package, which I'm thinking I might prefer the sport package over AWD for the very few instances I may need it.

Right. And of those handful of days where things are really bad, do you find yourself having to drive thru them all before the plows come thru?

I went thru a similar decision many years ago, needing a bigger DD, a wagon to haul my family around, and something I could drive to work in blizzards/flooding (as my office never closed). After the blizzard of 1996, I ended up buying a part-time 4wd SUV..my '97 4-Runner, and kept my old RWD fun car. I'm very happy I went with part time 4WD instead of full time AWD, 'cause I can count on one hand how many times I've engaged 4wd over 16 years. Looking back, I didn't need AWD at all despite driving thru many severe storms over the years.

[elwesso]

Seems like in my experience, there are 2 factors that trump everything else snow:

1. Tires
2. Ground Clearance.

Even with 4WD, if you get up to the frame in heavy snow you're kinda SOL.

[Bubba1]

Seems like in my experience, there are 2 factors that trump everything else snow:

1. Tires
2. Ground Clearance.

Even with 4WD, if you get up to the frame in heavy snow you're kinda SOL.

Agree, tires make a HUGE difference in winter driving regardless of drivetrain configuration. As far as ground clearance, well, that really depends on where you drive. For most folks, their commutes don't involve driving extensively on unplowed roads during rare blizzards. But higher ground clearance vehicles can certainly come in handy if you drive thru flood prone areas. But I assume since you already commute in a low slung sports car during summer rain storms, that's not really an issue.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

why not keep the BMW and get a winter beater?

A subaru with snow tires would climb trees bro.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I was just going to make a similar thread.

I have owned ONE car that was not RWD. It may well be the ONLY car I ever own that's not RWD. UT and ID see lots of snow for long periods of time through long winters. Hell, Rexburg City doesn't even plow the roads. I have never found myself wishing I had AWD or FWD. I have found myself wishing I had better tires.

The Q of DOOM was LOW. It did just fine in snow with the right tires. Ride height can be a factor but I certainly never encountered snow deep enough to make it one (and, again...UT winters are not mild).

In my eyes, the two biggest factors are unquestionably:
1: Tires
2: LSD

Those two things will make RWD not only tolerable, but SUPERIOR to FWD or AWD in the snow. The handling dynamics of RWD lend themselves to snow and limited (not zero) traction very well. Throttle steer changes from hoonage to an everyday driving tool. And a light, unloaded (via axle torque) steering rack means you can basically just will the car wherever you want.

I personally find it MUCH easier to control a RWD car in the snow than one in which the front end is trying to do too many things at once. I prefer my back tires doing the pushing and my front tires doing the steering.

A pegleg will make things a lot less simple, but it's still doable. My LS8's lamentable lack of a proper diff hasn't stopped me from having galactic-scale fun in the snow every winter.

[flohtingPoint]

In my eyes, the two biggest factors are unquestionably:
1: Tires
2: LSD

Those two things will make RWD not only tolerable, but SUPERIOR to FWD or AWD in the snow.

Coming from someone who competes nationally in the elements, you are off your rocker. No where near superior to AWD. The time differences and capabilities of the AWD cars becomes inhuman compared to us in RWD vehicles (and yes, we're on outstanding rain tires, Hoosier H20's, way better than the garbage on road cars). Snow is no different, especially at pedestrian speeds, where you're not utilizing the throttle for turning (ie: the main thing RWD is good for).

[MinisterofDOOM]

If I was talking about track times, perhaps. I'm talking about daily driveability and fun.

I guess my main beef with AWD is that when it's not helping, it's in the way. I don't want things in the way. There's a reason 4wd in pickups isn't full-time. But even then you've got more CV joints and axles and bearings to turn whether you're using them or not. AWD is of limited use and persistent presence. RWD never stops doing what it does well, regardless of weather. A little less traction is preferable to a lot more complexity and goofy front-end behavior when it's not desired.

[flohtingPoint]

If I was talking about track times, perhaps. I'm talking about daily driveability and fun.

I guess my main beef with AWD is that when it's not helping, it's in the way. I don't want things in the way. There's a reason 4wd in pickups isn't full-time. But even then you've got more CV joints and axles and bearings to turn whether you're using them or not. AWD is of limited use and persistent presence. RWD never stops doing what it does well, regardless of weather. A little less traction is preferable to a lot more complexity and goofy front-end behavior when it's not desired.

I'm talking about daily drivability also, track times are just the tell tale of how much the capabilities of the drivetrains are different. In terms of safety and ability to navigate poor conditions, RWD is no where in the league of AWD. On a dry condition, give me a RWD car, in poor conditions, AWD has every advantage on the planet. Remember, to finish first, you must first finish...

[krash]

The Q of DOOM was LOW. It did just fine in snow with the right tires. Ride height can be a factor but I certainly never encountered snow deep enough to make it one (and, again...UT winters are not mild).

Thats interesting... My brother-in-laws (stock) STi got stuck on an off ramp once (in MD). The snow was just deep enough to get some weight off the tires. That was that, lol.

[RED_DET]

If I was talking about track times, perhaps. I'm talking about daily driveability and fun.

I guess my main beef with AWD is that when it's not helping, it's in the way. I don't want things in the way. There's a reason 4wd in pickups isn't full-time. But even then you've got more CV joints and axles and bearings to turn whether you're using them or not. AWD is of limited use and persistent presence. RWD never stops doing what it does well, regardless of weather. A little less traction is preferable to a lot more complexity and goofy front-end behavior when it's not desired.

I'm talking about daily drivability also, track times are just the tell tale of how much the capabilities of the drivetrains are different. In terms of safety and ability to navigate poor conditions, RWD is no where in the league of AWD. On a dry condition, give me a RWD car, in poor conditions, AWD has every advantage on the planet. Remember, to finish first, you must first finish...

Way too much logic for this topic apparently....

[Bubba1]

I'm talking about daily drivability also, track times are just the tell tale of how much the capabilities of the drivetrains are different. In terms of safety and ability to navigate poor conditions, RWD is no where in the league of AWD. On a dry condition, give me a RWD car, in poor conditions, AWD has every advantage on the planet. Remember, to finish first, you must first finish...

Yep, plenty of evidence out there to support AWD is superior to RWD for traction in reduced grip situations like snow. I have no doubt MoD believes RWD is superior given his extensive experience with RWD (and comparatively little in the other types) in snow conditions. But as far as which configuration is universally the "best", well, that is more subjective. It depends on several factors including the driver, the car itself, the type of driving they do, and where they drive. I've driven many examples of every possible configuration on snow/ice and my view is they're all fun.

<winter driving school instructor

[MinisterofDOOM]

Right. You're right that a definitive "Superior" is a stretch. The same tires on an AWD and a RWD car will always put AWD ahead. But I do absolutely prefer the way RWD works in the snow personally. The point of which was not so much to start an argument as to maintain that RWD is entirely livable year-round regardless of all but the very most extreme weather conditions as long as your car is well-shod.

I have gotten stuck in the snow once in the pegleg LS8 while stupidly running nearly-bald UHP summer tires in the snow (unexpected snow, of course). I was going uphill in the mountains, doing fine, and got stuck behind a typical overcautious FWD-car driver who was as travelling at nowhere NEAR "safe for conditions" speed. They were going so slow that I had to reduce my speed, bleeding off momentum while going uphill in several inches of freshly fallen (indeed--still falling) snow. I eventually lost all my speed trying to make it through an offramp, and started sliding along with the bank of the curved offramp. As soon as I hit the shoulder, that was the end. Even Advancetrac was no help--it's hard for traction control to work with no traction available. It was overwhelmed by the lack of traction and simply fought itself by locking the rears as soon as they started turning. A tow truck pulled me back off the shoulder and on to the rutted center of the road and I was off without a hitch. It was just the loss of momentum and the dip into the banked shoulder that did me in.
Of course I'd have been fine with snow tires (either the momentum loss would not have been as bad, I would not have slid as drastically sideways, or Advancetrac would have had some actual traction to work with in getting me unstuck).

[krash]

But you'd never be caught dead using traction control, right?

[flohtingPoint]

The point of which was not so much to start an argument as to maintain that RWD is entirely livable year-round regardless of all but the very most extreme weather conditions as long as your car is well-shod.

"Entirely livable" is a MUCH better way to put it than your previous attempt with the horribly misinformed/misguided "SUPERIOR (all in caps) to AWD".

I will 100% concur that you can get by with a RWD car all year, even in bad conditions. My winter beater in Germany during a very heavy snow season was my 95 Camaro Z28, had a lot of HP but as long as I didn't drive like an ***hole (which I never do on public roads), "entirely livable" is a very good adjective for it. Never once got stuck in the snow, never once lost control, never once had a moment where I was a passenger instead of a driver behind the wheel.

[elwesso]

I agree that RWD can be livable, but AWD will be superior. I mean if you figure, you have 2 guys working versus 4 guys working, each guy has to work less with more..

If I lived in the city, I would probably consider RWD but i kind of live off the beaten path, and many times I leave before the plows get a chance to get to where I am.

Perhaps the better question, is that in the case in the M's, the difference in cost of a used car with or without AWD is pretty nominal, and the AWD ones seem to be a little easier to find. The price you pay is fuel economy and whatnot..

[Jesda]

AWD sucks without sufficient traction. You're just lugging around extra hardware for no good reason unless you have the right tires.

The best cars for winter driving, in my experience, have been the Maxima and Seville. I've been through 100-year blizzards in the middle of BFE with temps well below zero and haven't gotten stuck. With reasonable care, I've made it back and forth across the country with good all season tires in conditions that would frighten sane people.


In the end, it doesn't matter much what the drive wheels are if you have snow tires.

[Bubba1]

.

The best cars for winter driving, in my experience, have been the Maxima and Seville.

Hmmm, choosing a best car for winter driving is toughie for me. But near the top must be the Audi Urquattro: Quattro AWD, 300+ hp, 5 speed, beautiful balance, nicely bolstered seats. I was literally giggling while thrashing one around in snow/ice. There's a reason Audi's Quattro was called the "unfair advantage". It's tough to beat.

Clearing snow off a skid pad in one...




Yep, that's a Caddy sliding in the background.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I've actually found FWD cars with skinny tires to keep you out of trouble the best. AWD sometimes gives you a false sense of being "the s***" and above it all due to better traction, but your brakes aren't really any better.
FWD places all the weight on 2 tires. The skinnier, the better they are at cutting through the snow to get to the pavement down below for both acceleration and braking.

Just rock the E-brake if you need to coax the a**-end around.

[nissangirl74]

I've driven in lots of snow. Personally, I've always preferred RWD over FWD (I've never driven an AWD vehicle). The best vehicle I had in the snow was a 1980 Datsun 210. I had chains for it and it went everywhere. I actually used it to pull my FWD Ford Contour out of a ditch once. The Frontier hasn't seen a lot of winter weather but it's so capable with everything else, I assume it would be as good in snow / ice.