Attn: Tariq (re: US / Syria Incident)

[AZhitman]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/....html

Interesting quote, given the contention we often hear that the US in "unwelcome" and "not responsible for" ensuring peace overseas....

a country who is responsible for maintaining peace and security in the whole world

What's to make of this? And when an incident like this occurs, whose description of the incident is legitimate? As an investigator, I find it hard enough to get the truth... without the added complexities of international borders, language barriers, regional and religious factionalism, etc...

What comes next?

[themadscientist]

I turn to the comics section and see what Hagar is up to. Syria can suck an egg, a halal egg of course but still an egg.

[480sx]

That is a bizarre quote, but its agenda is pretty clear. Just trying to make America look hypocritical.

Thing is, while the mission itself might have been a success and a good move for the war on terror, it seems to be another black eye for us in an already very unpopular war(mostly speaking on a global scale). I mean imagine if another country did that to the US.. We would be at war with them in a matter of hours.

It seems that we tried to negotiate with Syria to work with them for this strike. Guess it was taking to long and the target could have gone cold or been tipped off to impending doom and we just did the strike anyway.

It just kinda seems like we have played into the hands of the Terrorists, again. I mean we have to do something to combat terrorism, however to me, this conventional war seems to be counter productive.

[Cold_Zero]

You didn't hear about incursions into Iran by certain Iraqi (*cough*) forces in 2006 to stop the flow of IED components and weapons, but now you hear about raids into Syria. It would appear that the Syrians have learned how to spin these raids in their favor.

This stuff happens all the time in the Middle East. Turkish fighters enter into Iraqi airspace to bombard Kurdish village. Iranians trafficking weapons and bomb making materials into Eastern Iraq and now this.

An Iraqi woman named Haifa Sabah al A'ani reacted on Jazeera TV's Web site, saying "What does Syria expect, if it lets terrorists into its country?"

A Lebanese man, named Sultan Khaled asserted, sarcastically, "Now the time has come for (Syrian President) Bashar al Assad to drink from the same cup as his Iraqi neighbors."

We can get wrapped up into what everyone says about this raid. The simple fact is that the DOD isn't talking (neither confirming or denying) about the raid. So the Syrians step up to the table and start spinning it in their favor.

[heliochrome85]

couple things...

first and foremost, i totally should have the title of middle east correspondant

My read of the situation is1.) these occur often. the us and israel regularly violate international law by entering foreign airspace without authorization.

2.) it was an opportunity for the US to be made an example of in the press

3.) it was an opportunity for Syria to exert its soverignty and prove that it is not afraid of going it without the US's support. Sarkozy has been the leading figure in the current mid east peace negotations, and has put france in the position the US claimed to hold, as a peace negotator.

4.) the quote was meant to bring light to the fact that the US has a responsibility as dictated by its permanent seat on the UN security council to maintain stability in the world and peace.

naturally the other way to look at it, you know, the tin foil hat way, is that bush deliberatly ordered this to bring light to the national security concerns in order to aid mccain.

i dont ascribe to that view, because its ridiculous, but i have read it a couple times.

in either case, Syria still does not have a US ambassador, and hasnt had one for a while. The us is willing to use syrian intelligence for its war, but isnt willing to legitimise the cooperation with a formal ambassador.

[Cold_Zero]

What is weird about the 'eye witness account' of this incident is that they claim helicopters flew into Syria, landed/inserted operators and shot the place up. Granted, take this with a grain of salt since the DOD is not talking about the incident. This story doesn't add up. It sounds like the Syrian witnesses or their handlers have been watching too much TV on Blackwater or something. The reason being this, 1. With a fairly strong Syrian Air Force, why would the US fly helicopters into Syria?2. Why waste time and potentially resources inserting a team to take down tangos?

With UAVs, Guided Tactical Missiles, Fast Movers and Apaches Gunships why wouldn't the US military fly in, target and kill the tangos and then slip back out? We do this all the time, we even did it to Somalia recently when we took down ICU positions, after the Ethiopians bombed the country. The Israelis do it as well in Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank. Heck they use Cobras all the time to put rockets/missiles through the windows of Business Buildings to target certain people. It is quick, usually precise and mitigates all kinds of risk. Not like inserting operators on the ground to hit targets.

[smockers83]

I'm confused as to how the story doesn't "add up." An official of the United States said specifically that a successful attack in Syria occurred with copters. Even if there are some misspoken facts, if this occurred, which it did, it is outrageous that we would do such a thing. We cannot use the excuse of international terrorists to walk into a country to attack said terrorists. We may be in a war on terrorists, but that doesn't mean we can disrespect a sovereign country. This is a reason why I advocate a policy of containment--let the terrorists fall upon themselves or else we're going to get ourselves into trouble.

They probably flew in because it was only 5 miles across the border. By the time the operation is over and US forces are back in Iraq, Syrian aircraft would just be getting in the air.

[WDRacing]

I agree to this in part atleast. I'm tired of war...just tired. The war on terror is NEVER going to be over...ever. I'm tired of seeing our boys placed in harms way and I'm damn tired of paying for it every 2 weeks.

It's time to pack up and come home. Who cares about the vacuum, who cares about what faction takes charge...not me. So long as they leave us alone, I could give a crap less what goes on over there.

WD

[Cold_Zero]

I'm confused as to how the story doesn't "add up." An official of the United States said specifically that a successful attack in Syria occurred with copters. Even if there are some misspoken facts, if this occurred, which it did, it is outrageous that we would do such a thing.

They probably flew in because it was only 5 miles across the border. By the time the operation is over and US forces are back in Iraq, Syrian aircraft would just be getting in the air.

In my mind it doesnt had up because that is typically not our MO. When we hit ICU forces in Somalia we did so with AC-130 gunships. We didnt land Horn of Africa forces from Djibouti inside Somalia, hit the targets and then extract them. When we hit Al Qaeda hotspots in Waziristan, we do so with Missile strikes and Fast Movers. That is all I am pointing out. No one denies that helos were used. But what kind were used, AH-64/AH-1s or MH-60s? If the military used AH-64s, then the Syrian accounts would be bogus. That was all I was trying to point out. Again, with out the DOD talking about the details, we can only speculate

And to your question, the closest Syrian assets to the attack site would be the 8th Squadron that fly MIG-21 MF/UMs at Deir Zzor. Its about an 80 mile trip South by South East down the M5 highway to Sukkariya, Dayr az Zawr. That is a 3.4 minute trip for a MIG-21. Now if we used MH-60s it would take almost 7 minutes to fly from the Iraq border to Sukkariya. Then you have to factor in extra time for landing, the operation itself and then 7 minutes to fly back to safety. Now the question would be if the Syrians have any jets on Alert ready to go once an incursion is detected or what kind of AEW technology they have parked on the Iraqi border to detect an incursion. bud

[audtatious]

I agree to this in part atleast. I'm tired of war...just tired. The war on terror is NEVER going to be over...ever. I'm tired of seeing our boys placed in harms way and I'm damn tired of paying for it every 2 weeks.

It's time to pack up and come home. Who cares about the vacuum, who cares about what faction takes charge...not me. So long as they leave us alone, I could give a crap less what goes on over there.

WD

Same thing can be said about fighting poverty and trying to make people do for themselves. It hurts to make a change so why bother?

Yes, I'm aware the latter is simply money and not blood.

[AZhitman]

We cannot use the excuse of international terrorists to walk into a country to attack said terrorists. We may be in a war on terrorists, but that doesn't mean we can disrespect a sovereign country.

Smocky, usually I'm on board with most of what you say, but this....

This implies we can no longer pursue any international terrorlst. Bin Laden just became untouchable, by your plan.

Maybe I'm missing something or just McTarded today...

[heliochrome85]

you arent being a tard, thats just one way of looking at it. conversely, you have to wonder, if there was any alternative method of doing it. one way is to cross illegally into another country, the other way is to fight it from your own side. why cant/doesnt the US just block that roadway/path from iraq/iran into syria? that would not disturb syria one bit, nor would it be a violation of international law. if this was a site where the foreign fighters/terrorists met, you could also do a covert operation. doesnt sound like it was very covert to me.

[audtatious]

Isn't the Syrian border MUCH longer than our border with Mexico? Roadblocks can't stop someone coming across the desert.

BTW, enjoy your new title.

[Cold_Zero]

Isn't the Syrian border MUCH longer than our border with Mexico? Roadblocks can't stop someone coming across the desert.

You could Mine the border, Saddam did it to his Southern Border with Saudi Arabia. It works pretty damn well on the DMZ in Korea. Maybe we need to consider the same?

[heliochrome85]

thanks jeff. i appreciate it.

Well, i understand the issue. My point is not this situation specific. My concern is more of a issue with the US view of terrorism in general. For example, palestinian militants, etc. You can put borders, walls, fences and such up. They will still try to get in and harm you. What about going after the root of the problem, the main reason they join those organizations to begin with? For example, in my discussions with a couple israeli soldiers here, you get the feeling that the Israelis in general are good people, who do good works. Why not use that good will to aid the fledgeling peace movement in the west bank and gaza, to open jobs, to create trade, agriculture, opportunities for the youth to have an alternative to radical militant organizations? There by, you improve your neighbor, and therefor you secure yourself as well.

Im a firm believer that the majority, vast majority of issues in the middle east are due to the yet unresolved palestianian israeli conflict. the current climate there is very bad for both sides. on top of that, al qaeda uses that issue to go after the US, as a recruiting tool. Show that the US is a good guy, by promoting the rebuilding of the west bank and you see that the conflict suddenly is easier to resolve. when the conflict is resolved, militant organizations have less recruiting power because the conditions have improved. in one fell swoop, you improve the US's positon abroad, secure its partners in the middle east, and save billions of dollars and countless lives, by not having to patrol the middle east.

I know its terribly simple, but this is an approach that has NOT been given considerable thought by our government.

[AZhitman]

^ I'd support that.

I just don't see how someone can go so far as to say, "No incursions into foreign countries".

Hell, that means OBL could come camp out 160 miles S of my new house and lob rocks at the Border Patrol agents if he wanted to.

Nope, until things quiet down, I think we're almost "stuck" with "we'll go where we want whenever we damn well please, but we'll let you know beforehand if it's strategically feasible."

[smockers83]

The reason I said that Greg is because I want to see a policy of containment put in place, one modeled after Cold War policy, but obviously rendered for today's challenges. The reason is because during the Cold War, we fought an ideal. With terrorism, we are fighting an ideal. Ideals can collapse upon themselves once people see the light. In a policy of containment, if a group inside a country wants to battle whatever you're containing, you support that group with military aid or money, but not directly fighting with them. Kind of like what Tariq just mentioned. Support the West Bank, help rebuild it, and the ideal of terrorism against the US and pro-Western governments begins to fall. The more we cross borders like we did with Syria, the more the terrorists can recruit and say, "Hey, they're illegally crossing our border to attack us. Help us fight back!" In their eyes, we are committing the same act that terrorists committed on us no matter how beneficial and good it may be to our cause. Now, not only do you have an issue with terrorists, but you have an issue with an actual government, and then you'll have a real war going on (according to certain definitions of war). We could have just watched them and waited until they came back into Iraq and shot them just as easily. If they knew they were being watched and couldn't cross, how effective are they now? Not very, if at all.

[audtatious]

thanks jeff. i appreciate it.

Interesting. You and Telco are the only people on here who call me Jeff. Why is that interesting? Because Jeff is where I live (Jeffersonville) and my name is Matt

You may want to adjust so I never confuse you with Telco

As for the rest? Just blame Bush. He seems to be a good fall guy

[heliochrome85]

ha. i knew it wasnt right. sorry, its been a while.

[Cold_Zero]

thanks jeff. i appreciate it.

T-You made my day with that comment.Thanks!

[audtatious]

[Barack Obama]

Interesting. You and Telco are the only people on here who call me Jeff. Why is that interesting? Because Jeff is where I live (Jeffersonville) and my name is Matt

Jeff is it?

I have following your NICO career closely and I like what I see. Please keep up the good work and the support.BHO

[Cold_Zero]

Uh oh,http://www.france24.com/en/200...RIENT

Syria shuts down a US school in Damascus.

[heliochrome85]

yep. its near my house. my cousins go there. oh, and the US cultural center, which i used to work at. also closed.

i have heard that it will be until bush leaves office. who knows though. Bush hasnt exactly been friendly to syria, kinda like pickin a fight. not that syria would win, but the US has much more to lose.

[Cold_Zero]

I remember when Assad took the Presidency in 2000, there was so much hope that there would be better relations between the US and Syria and that culturally, the country would open up.