Attacks on Gaza creates rift with overseas jews...

[heliochrome85]

http://www.metafilter.com/7841...-Jews

read the articles in the post, and then read through the comments if you can.

see what is actually going on in Gaza. the stuff that CNN/MSNBC/Fox wont show you, and that the IDF won't allow photographed.

what is the difference between a militant and a revolutionary? the person who writes the history.

[WDRacing]

what is the difference between a militant and a revolutionary? the person who writes the history.

Agreed...

Why can't we just live in relative peace? Seriously...what is with the constant war? If it's not us it's somebody else.

People suck.

I'd trade both testicles right now if it'd stop ALL war in the middle east. Who gives a crap what who someone chooses to worship and where they choose to do it. If it doesn't physically bother me, then I have no right to be upset. Why is that such a hard concept? Mind your own business...period. Don't like it where you live, move.

I wonder how many cities we could build from the ground up with all the money we've spent at war in the last 15 years?

Sorry to stray off topic Helio...

[bobotech]

I just wish that Hamas would just give up and cave in. Its just annoying that they keep trying to poke the big scary bear all the time and then they squeal when the bear bites back.

And for the record, I have been very fascinated by watching the Rammatan (sp?) live webcams of Gaza over the last couple of weeks. I saw some nasty looking stuff raining down upon Gaza at some points. And heard the Muslims saying/singing their prayers at certain times of the day and best of all, that damned rooster crowing all the time in the morning at Gaza.

[480sx]

Amazing thread. I didnt view the pictures, i dont want/need to see them.

The parallels drawn with the IRA were pretty interesting as well.

Good link.

[szh]

A reminder to everybody:

As always, let's keep this thread political and not let it get religious, okay?

Z

[szh]

A most worthwhile read from one of the brilliant minds of the last century: http://www.chomsky.info/books/dissent01.htm.

His commentary (in 1992, by the way) on the problems of Israel and the Mid-East are quite interesting to say the least.

Z

[szh]

From Uri Avnery's column, entitled "The Boss Has Gone Mad". See http://zope.gush-shalom.org/ho...52100/ for the column.

This quote is interesting to say the least:

Quote »The planners of the war chose the timing with care: during the holidays, when everybody was on vacation, and while President Bush was still around. But they somehow forgot to take into consideration a fateful date: next Tuesday Barack Obama will enter the White House.

This date is now casting a huge shadow on events. The Israeli Barak understands that if the American Barack gets angry, that would mean disaster. Conclusion: the horrors of Gaza must stop before the inauguration. This week that determined all political and military decisions. Not “the number of rockets”, not “victory”, not “breaking Hamas”.[/quote]Z

[Jesda]

Hamas fires rockets, then they act totally confused when Israel responds.

[szh]

Hamas fires rockets, then they act totally confused when Israel responds.

Chicken and egg problem ... classic.

As Uri put it:

Quote »In Israel, all the talk is about the “picture of victory” – not victory itself, but the “picture”. That is essential, in order to convince the Israeli public that the whole business has been worthwhile. At this moment, all the thousands of media people, to the very last one, have been mobilized to paint such a “picture”. The other side, of course, will paint a different one.

The Israeli leaders will boast of two “achievements”: the end of the rockets and the sealing of the Gaza-Egypt border (the co-called “Philadelphi route”. Dubious achievements: the launching of the Qassams could have been prevented without a murderous war, if our government had been ready to negotiate with Hamas after they won the Palestinian elections. The tunnels under the Egyptian border would not have been dug in the first place, if our government had not imposed the deadly blockade on the Strip.[/quote]Z

[datsun2401972]

Ok, so who's to blame.

Israel for returning fire, killing civilians because they are interwoven with Hamas' exposed militants?

Or the palestinian people for allowing such an extremist group, who hides among civilians, places rocket batteries inbetween civilian houses, builds terrorlst aiding tunnels underneath civilian houses, tells anyone with an emotional problem to go suicide bomb some jews, uses UN schools for cover inbetween mortar launchings...

Or Hamas?!

Oh yah, and how are you supposed to negotiate with a group(hamas) who doesn't even recognize you as a country? With a 10 to 1 kill ratio, that's how.

[Jesda]

A most worthwhile read from one of the brilliant minds of the last century: http://www.chomsky.info/books/dissent01.htm.

His commentary (in 1992, by the way) on the problems of Israel and the Mid-East are quite interesting to say the least.

Z

Noam "What genocide? Never happened!" Chomsky.

I'm very familiar with his work.

[HashiriyaS14]

1.) Hamas <> Palestine

Hamas IS a terrorlst organization and they ARE instigating the conflict.

That said, Israel is handing it terribly.

Israel and Fatah need to have a formal peace agreement BEFORE Hamas can be eliminated, it will never happen in reverse.

The Israeli people need to be told in no uncertain terms that they can either make painful compromises and negotiate peace with Fatah and a Palestinian state or they can forget about future US aid. Then, once that is accomplished, both Fatah and the Israelis can rout Hamas.

[heliochrome85]

look who's back! here i was thinking you had left us since you rarely are on this side of the forum. no doubt, hamas instigated, and no doubt, hamas will be stronger now. what did israel gain? it has to be asked, and i dont know if they gained anything.

[szh]

Noam "What genocide? Never happened!" Chomsky.

I'm very familiar with his work.

Are you really sure you are familiar with his work? Did you read the interview at the link I posted?

Here is a quote from it ... his words "I described the Holocaust years ago as the most fantastic outburst of insanity in human history" are clear:

Quote »QUESTION: I ask you this question because I know that you have been plagued and hounded around the United States specifically on this issue of the Holocaust. It's been said that Noam Chomsky is somehow agnostic on the issue of whether the Holocaust occurred or not.

CHOMSKY: My "agnosticism" is in print. I described the Holocaust years ago as the most fantastic outburst of insanity in human history, so much so that if we even agree to discuss the matter we demean ourselves. Those statements and numerous others like them are in print, but they're basically irrelevant because you have to understand that this is part of a Stalinist-style technique to silence critics of the holy state and therefore the truth is entirely irrelevant, you just tell as many lies as you can and hope that some of the mud will stick. It's a standard technique used by the Stalinist parties, by the Nazis and by these guys.[/quote]I attended seminars by him when I was at MIT. People have totally (and apparently deliberately) misunderstood Chomsky's comments about the Holocaust. He never stated that it did not happen - his main problem with it was its overuse as an excuse and the consequent "woe is me" attitude. Chomsky felt that, when the goodwill and guilt ran out, the pendulum swing to the other side would be far worse.

Z

[szh]

Ok, so who's to blame.

Unlike the folks who want to state categorical things here, I haven't the clarity of knowledge to make the judgement that easily!

And that is my point - if it has not been obvious from how I am phrasing it! Sitting here, it is all too easy for us to pontificate and expound on the situation. We get fed incorrect information from the Media all the time, and particularly when a state government controls access, then you get misleading information.

It is articles and columns and posts from "people on the ground", including folks like Uri Avnery, that matter.

the palestinian people for allowing such an extremist group,

Just how are unarmed civilians to prevent this? Particularly when they are mostly treated like second-class citizens by Israel and the Palestinian sides.

With a 10 to 1 kill ratio, that's how.

More like 100 to 1 right now. Plus, that ratio is vastly skewed to children on one side. And that is downright sad - regardless of any other way of looking at it.

Z

[szh]

1.) Hamas <> Palestine

Hamas IS a terrorlst organization and they ARE instigating the conflict.

That said, Israel is handing it terribly.

Israel and Fatah need to have a formal peace agreement BEFORE Hamas can be eliminated, it will never happen in reverse.

The Israeli people need to be told in no uncertain terms that they can either make painful compromises and negotiate peace with Fatah and a Palestinian state or they can forget about future US aid. Then, once that is accomplished, both Fatah and the Israelis can rout Hamas.

Very good observations.

I do NOT condone terrorism in any way, shape or fashion. So, what Hamas instigated is certainly not the right thing for them to have done. that we are all in agreement with.

Yes, I would much rather see the tenets of Gandhi (also espoused by MLK) be applied - use non-violent protests to achieve the results. However, this is a fact: even attempted peaceful gatherings are not allowed by the State of Israel, because of their security concerns (right or wrong). So, nobody pays attention and the media ignores anything that is not extreme.

So, the end result is that organizations like Hamas gain clout when they should not. That is unfortunate.

Z

[Jesda]

Are you really sure you are familiar with his work? Did you read the interview at the link I posted?

I attended seminars by him when I was at MIT. People have totally (and apparently deliberately) misunderstood Chomsky's comments about the Holocaust. He never stated that it did not happen - his main problem with it was its overuse as an excuse and the consequent "woe is me" attitude. Chomsky felt that, when the goodwill and guilt ran out, the pendulum swing to the other side would be far worse.

Z

I'm not referring to only the German holocaust. Chomsky's denials of tragic, inhumane, systematic genocide and murder also extends to the famous "killing fields"

Innocent people were slaughtered, and instead of apologizing for his error he arrogantly tried to make excuses for what he said. His credibility has been diminished ever since.

He's 80 years old, so he'll probably be dead soon enough, like the millions of Jews and Cambodians who were brutally murdered.

I know, you got to see him and were enthralled by the way he "talks pretty" and legitimizes youthful rebellion. I'm very familiar with his cult, but he's a worthless prick who turns a blind eye to human injustice.

[480sx]

1.) Hamas <> Palestine

Hamas IS a terrorlst organization and they ARE instigating the conflict.

That said, Israel is handing it terribly.

Seriously. For whatever reason people have been playing into the hands of terrorists. We are doing exactly what they want us to do. Starting these wars on a massive scale in the end, only strengthens terrorism.

1.)

Israel and Fatah need to have a formal peace agreement BEFORE Hamas can be eliminated, it will never happen in reverse.

The Israeli people need to be told in no uncertain terms that they can either make painful compromises and negotiate peace with Fatah and a Palestinian state or they can forget about future US aid. Then, once that is accomplished, both Fatah and the Israelis can rout Hamas.

Agreed.

[szh]

I'm not referring to only the German holocaust. Chomsky's denials of tragic, inhumane, systematic genocide and murder also extends to the famous "killing fields"

References please ... the last time I heard Chomsky was many years ago - inre the Holocaust - so I'd like to see this properly documented (objectively) somewhere. My personal take from hearing him speak, was that he was NOT a person who would deny the existence of, or the wrongness of, genocide.

like the millions of Jews and Cambodians who were brutally murdered.

Yes, there are plenty of examples of Man's inhumanity to Man, unfortunately! Ranging from the Inquisition, the wiping out of the Inca, the Killing fields in Cambodia, the India-Pakistan migration in 1947, Stalin's purges (more people died there than anywhere else, btw), the Holocaust, the Tutsi's, etc., etc., etc.

The problem is that these are all dark chapters in our world history. Some to lesser degree than others, if you take the number of human lives lost as a measure - but nevertheless fundamentally and morally wrong. Innate nature of Man maybe.

Z

[Jesda]

References please ... the last time I heard Chomsky was many years ago - inre the Holocaust - so I'd like to see this properly documented (objectively) somewhere. My personal take from hearing him speak, was that he was NOT a person who would deny the existence of, or the wrongness of, genocide.

You and I know that Chomsky is verbose, making it impossible to offer an "I DENY THE EXISTENCE OF GENOCIDE" kind of blog-friendly 2000s-era soundbite. I used to follow Chomsky back when I was dealing with some of his fanatics, and haven't read up on him in at least nine years.

Here's a primer:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...omsky

The gist is that Chomsky blames America for atrocities, underestimates casualties (except when it comes to those caused by US intervention), and seldom blames the socialists/communists in charge of their regimes.

He's a blowhard with tunnel vision who gains admiration from his use of decorative language.

[JimmyMethod]

Well, back on topic...

I certainly don't agree with Hamas shooting rockets, but (what's left of) Palestine is not Hamas.

That said, Israel has become a terrorlst state. They are murdering civilians by the truckload in retaliation to what someone loosely associated with Palestinians did.

America needs to stop sucking Israel's d!ck and start divesting in them.

[Cold_Zero]

America needs to stop sucking Israel's d!ck and start divesting in them.

That is EXACTLY what the US needs to do.Bravo.

Taking up a contrary position is fine and I welcome anyone to do it. However, when the the whole or majority of an argument is based on logical fallacies, I take offense. It's insulting to me for someone to think that they can use it and I won't notice. If you (not you specifically but anyone) are doing it intentionally, then you're assuming I'm too stupid to pick up on it. If you're doing it accidentally, you really need to learn how to structure an argument before trying to have one with me.

[heliochrome85]

at least a non arab said it this time. nicely done.

[Cold_Zero]

I was originally going to ask why you thought that there would even be a consensus with World Wide Jews in the first place? Living in Israel or in diaspora. If I remember correctly back to their wanderings in the desert they were not unified at that point in their history, either

[bobotech]

I would be interested to see just how hard Israel would strike if they weren't being restrained by the big ole evil USA?

If we said to them "Okay, you guys are on your own from here on out", what would happen?

Its not like we would take their weapons away.

[szh]

I would be interested to see just how hard Israel would strike if they weren't being restrained by the big ole evil USA?

Restrained by the USA? I think in this case that did not occur too much - the outgoing Bush government mostly turned a blind eye to the situation, no?

If we said to them "Okay, you guys are on your own from here on out", what would happen?

I'd say: probably the Palestinian equivalent of Krystal Nacht would happen. A repetition of what happened in Nazi Germany ... only this time, done by people who ought to know better.

Sad that we have such short memories and don't learn from history or better our understanding of what it means to be treated with a lack of humanity.

Both sides in this current conflict have much to be blamed for.

Z

[datsun2401972]

Unlike the folks who want to state categorical things here, I haven't the clarity of knowledge to make the judgement that easily!

No judgment concerning the unnecessary loss of human life is ever made easily by this man. And without categorizing we have no idea what we are specifically talking about. All we can say is there is a mass of problems there, but don't try to classify them, people will say we're judging too easily.

And that is my point - if it has not been obvious from how I am phrasing it! Sitting here, it is all too easy for us to pontificate and expound on the situation. We get fed incorrect information from the Media all the time, and particularly when a state government controls access, then you get misleading information.

You're very correct here, many people just listen to what the media has to say. I don't.

Just how are unarmed civilians to prevent this? Particularly when they are mostly treated like second-class citizens by Israel and the Palestinian sides.

Hard to say. I question this, but it has been said that they were legally voted into power(hamas). Therefore the majority of the people there support Hamas' view right?

Actually it's easy to get rid of hamas, give them up to the Israelis. If you don't know who is living in your backyard launching rockets at a country who is surrounded by people who don't like them, it's your problem.

I don't understand why Palestinians would consider other Palestinians as second class, unless the other Palestinians said something along the lines of, "you guys are a bunch of idiots for voting hamas into power". Then I would understand completely.

You seriously wanna call these people "unarmed civilians"?! They don't hesitate to throw ROCKS at the Israeli military, who uses guns, tanks, and aircraft among other things to target the enemy. Why don't they use rocks against Hamas?! Oh, right, because they want them there... If you wanna live by the saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" you'd better be prepared to receive the repercussions of the actions of your "friends".

More like 100 to 1 right now. Plus, that ratio is vastly skewed to children on one side. And that is downright sad - regardless of any other way of looking at it.

It IS downright sad. The ONLY good thing to say about the children dying is that they are innocent in the eyes of our Creator. It's very unfortunate that the civilian casualties are so great, and that there are civilian casualties at all.

And this is why I'm here talking about this. Why did these people have to die? If you want to talk about easy judgment, Israel is the easiest to blame for the civilian casualties. If you want to analyze it logically, you must find the reason why Israel started bombing Gaza.

Both Hamas and the mainstream media can answer that, because hamas started firing rockets and mortars into Israel. If we wanna point out the reasons for hamas firing rockets we'd probably have to go back to 1948 when Israel declared its independence. Which was accepted by the UN, which should make that reason void in the eyes of the world.

No doubt it's not that simple. There's discrimination problems, border problems, etc...but I can't recall a situation where Israel killed people "just because".

[heliochrome85]

What people like Z and I have forgotten is more than what the US population has ever known, in regards to this topic.

you wanna know why Hamas was elected? Look at the conditions onthe ground prior to their election. Gaza around the time of the elections was alot like Post WWI germany, with no economic growth, alot of anger, and alot of instability. Out of that comes Hamas, who like hitler, promises alot of things, and actually does good inthe community. They seek to defend the honor of the palestinians and hell, it worked. You wonder why they are so popular? Hitler was popular. How do you prevent stuff like that from happening? You fix the conditions on the ground so that the moderates arent forced to turn to the extreme fringe elements to get anything done.

How do you fix gaza? 2 options, 1.) open the borders with gaza and rebuild and revitilize the economy, or 2.) Strengthen the Fatah Government in the West Bank and show the Gaza faction that hey, if you can play nice you can have these nice things too, like a state. When the people on the ground see that Fatah is getting results, you will see support for Hamas dry up.

how do you do it? You start actually forcing Israel to do something. As it stands now, they have nothing to gain from a palestinian state, as aid flows into israel and weaponry to defend against these terrorists. lose the threat, you lose the protection. And Miami and New York wont have that anytime soon.

[Jesda]

I'd say: probably the Palestinian equivalent of Krystal Nacht would happen. A repetition of what happened in Nazi Germany ... only this time, done by people who ought to know better.

Until I see a rapid increase in pizza oven sales, I think you're exaggerating.

[datsun2401972]

Seriously. For whatever reason people have been playing into the hands of terrorists. We are doing exactly what they want us to do. Starting these wars on a massive scale in the end, only strengthens terrorism.

How do you destroy(or turn peaceful) a terrorlst organization founded on religious principles?

I think saying that "starting wars on a massive scale towards terrorism only strengthens terrorism" is pretty inconsiderate.

By that statement I could say that you appear to be implying that we haven't learned anything on how terrorists operate, or about any terrorlst plots. We haven't changed the minds of anyone over there to thinking that terrorism is wrong. And basically all we've done is increase the ranks(despite the death toll) of terrorists.

I do understand to a degree. I believe there were much better ways to go about routing terrorlst then how we(US) did. And yes killing "innocent" civilians on accident(or on purpose for that matter) does plant seeds of hate into people that once did not consider taking up arms against the US or Israel.

But in the situation of Gaza, I don't believe those people are justified hating Israel to a degree of sacrificing themselves to help destroy Israel. They need to understand that they let an extremist militant group take control of their state. This militant group has made acts of war against a much more powerful people. NO ONE on the face of this earth would just stand there and take hundreds of rockets up their *** and do nothing about it. Unless they were helpless I suppose.

And I'm pretty sure I know why the Palestinians of Gaza will never understand that, as a result of putting an extremist militant group in power, they got bombed. Because they accept Hamas. And if they don't fully accept them, they atleast sympathize with them. How else did they come to power? And by accepting them they don't see them as wrong doers. And maybe the reason it's so hard for them to see hamas as wrong doers is because they would have to blame themselves for electing hamas into government.

And I can completely understand that. I would live in misery the rest of my life if I knew that my decision resulted in the killing of my daughter. Granted I could see past the killer to the real reasoning behind the killing. And most people, including myself, probably can't see past the killer.