For discussion:
It appears engine damage failures for the Vortech are rare, cuz the Vortech comes with a timing solution..
And the ATI doesnt.
Which aftermarket part should one buy to make a ATI workable?Is it just a rumor that the Procharger has a high engine damage rate?
Reason is I was looking for a Vortech, but may be able to get a ATI for cheap from a Nico sponsor who doesnt have Vortech in stock.(That is if I dont trade my car in for an 05 Track)
Willa J&S likely be suffcient?
Fred...
ATI ProCharger and Vortech SC on a 350Z
learned a lot from a good installer
ATI will run safe if...
By adding a J+S timing box.
The Vortech has the timing box and the fuel management set for its FI kit.
This may be a good point to review Pro's an Cons of Vortech vs ATI ProCharger:
Vortech
Pro: -Complete kit includes everything including fuel management and timing box-Cheaper than even a discounted ProCharger-Many have been bought and installed... havent heard of any blown motors with this kit ( am sure there are some out there)EDIT heard of 2 now one clealry being the SC's fault albeit a cosnsitently overspun Vortech w/ 9 lb pulley)Cons:-Drilling into oil pan needed as the SC uses the cars oiling system to oil itself.
ProCharger
Pros-Very high workmanship kit, high quality parts,.-Has its own independent oiling system , no need to drill into oil pan.... also makes for very consistent oil pressure+ film strenght in the unit as oil temps will show less variation-Runs 7 lbs pulley stock vs many other units ( like Vortech) 8 lbs stock, this is potentially more conservative and is probably due to them wanting to avoid detonation w/o a timing solution.Since I intend to add a timing solution this should help make this kit even safer for the motor
Cons: -Costs more-Doesnt come with a timing solution which has caused some engines to get damaged, when I buy a timing solution it still has to be manipulated for the 7 lbs ProCharger kit.
ATI will run safe if...
By adding a J+S timing box.
The Vortech has the timing box and the fuel management set for its FI kit.
This may be a good point to review Pro's an Cons of Vortech vs ATI ProCharger:
Vortech
Pro: -Complete kit includes everything including fuel management and timing box-Cheaper than even a discounted ProCharger-Many have been bought and installed... havent heard of any blown motors with this kit ( am sure there are some out there)EDIT heard of 2 now one clealry being the SC's fault albeit a cosnsitently overspun Vortech w/ 9 lb pulley)Cons:-Drilling into oil pan needed as the SC uses the cars oiling system to oil itself.
ProCharger
Pros-Very high workmanship kit, high quality parts,.-Has its own independent oiling system , no need to drill into oil pan.... also makes for very consistent oil pressure+ film strenght in the unit as oil temps will show less variation-Runs 7 lbs pulley stock vs many other units ( like Vortech) 8 lbs stock, this is potentially more conservative and is probably due to them wanting to avoid detonation w/o a timing solution.Since I intend to add a timing solution this should help make this kit even safer for the motor
Cons: -Costs more-Doesnt come with a timing solution which has caused some engines to get damaged, when I buy a timing solution it still has to be manipulated for the 7 lbs ProCharger kit.
Then there is always the Stillen Stage 2 (also a Nico Sponsor)
I really like its only running 6 psi= extra safe.
But then its a roots which causes extra heat, maybe it <needs> to run at only 6 to be as safe as a centrifugal at 7 lbs?
Even when adding a carbon fiber hood, price is about in line with a ProCharger + J&S Timing box bought+tuned
Of course Stillen Customer service is not known for its excellence, still the kit seems the absolute safest for the motor.
And if insatlled at dealer, a warranty on the Motor is available.
Fred..
I really like its only running 6 psi= extra safe.
But then its a roots which causes extra heat, maybe it <needs> to run at only 6 to be as safe as a centrifugal at 7 lbs?
Even when adding a carbon fiber hood, price is about in line with a ProCharger + J&S Timing box bought+tuned
Of course Stillen Customer service is not known for its excellence, still the kit seems the absolute safest for the motor.
And if insatlled at dealer, a warranty on the Motor is available.
Fred..
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WDRacing
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The only thing safe with Stillen is the lack of boost. So I'd go with whoever has a better customer service base, just in case there are problems.
The main problem with running any boost through the 350Z is the high compression pistons mixed with a naturally aspirated timing map. Once you add boost the cylinder pressures and temps go way up. We suffer from the same problem on the KA24DE, although we have lower compression and can boost around 8 psi with no need to retard timing.
To much timing will pop a motor quicker then to much boost, it's also alot harder to tune a timing map compared to your air fuel mixture. Your best bet is anything that will retard timing with the onset of boost and then proportionally per psi as boost increases. There are a couple products available that will do just that. The MSD BTM retards timing, so does Crane. However, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to the 350Z, I've never worked on one. I assume you can tap into the rpm signal and add the MSD unit, or a shop could. Its definitly worth checking into.
The J&S unit is a very good unit as well. Yes you need an experienced shop to install one. Again I've only read a few advertisments for it, but I believe it retards each cylinder independently when knock actually occurs. It has been proven on several race cars to work well though. I know the bottom of the line MSD BTM can be had for about $160, while the MSD6 BTM , which will totally improve your ignition system, can be had for $360. Add the price of the install and compare all of the above.
There are also alternatives to knock reduction that don't involve timing. You can run a standalone Alcohol injection kit, or a water injection kit. Both have been used for the last 20 years on cars with boost. I personally ran a alcohol kit on my Skyline when I was on Okinawa, 4 years and not a single problem. Especially if your only running enough to avoid knock at a low boost level. There are some on/off type kits and then there are some progressive kits available for decent prices nowadays, another thing definitly worth checking into IMO. I always recommend alcohol, always will. In fact I'm going to run alky and propane on my 240. If you show up to the Mar meet, you can check it out.
WD
The main problem with running any boost through the 350Z is the high compression pistons mixed with a naturally aspirated timing map. Once you add boost the cylinder pressures and temps go way up. We suffer from the same problem on the KA24DE, although we have lower compression and can boost around 8 psi with no need to retard timing.
To much timing will pop a motor quicker then to much boost, it's also alot harder to tune a timing map compared to your air fuel mixture. Your best bet is anything that will retard timing with the onset of boost and then proportionally per psi as boost increases. There are a couple products available that will do just that. The MSD BTM retards timing, so does Crane. However, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to the 350Z, I've never worked on one. I assume you can tap into the rpm signal and add the MSD unit, or a shop could. Its definitly worth checking into.
The J&S unit is a very good unit as well. Yes you need an experienced shop to install one. Again I've only read a few advertisments for it, but I believe it retards each cylinder independently when knock actually occurs. It has been proven on several race cars to work well though. I know the bottom of the line MSD BTM can be had for about $160, while the MSD6 BTM , which will totally improve your ignition system, can be had for $360. Add the price of the install and compare all of the above.
There are also alternatives to knock reduction that don't involve timing. You can run a standalone Alcohol injection kit, or a water injection kit. Both have been used for the last 20 years on cars with boost. I personally ran a alcohol kit on my Skyline when I was on Okinawa, 4 years and not a single problem. Especially if your only running enough to avoid knock at a low boost level. There are some on/off type kits and then there are some progressive kits available for decent prices nowadays, another thing definitly worth checking into IMO. I always recommend alcohol, always will. In fact I'm going to run alky and propane on my 240. If you show up to the Mar meet, you can check it out.
WD
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jEzTeR
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Re: (PalmerWMD)
ProCharger
Pros-Very high workmanship kit, high quality parts,.. for this reason used to be considred a step up above the Vortech for some time-Has its own independent oiling system , no need to drill into oil pan.... also makes for very consistent oil pressure+ film strenght in the unit as oil temps will show less variation-Runs 7 lbs pulley stock vs many other units ( like Vortech) 8 lbs stock, this is potentially more conservative and is probably due to them wanting to avoid detonation w/o a timing solution.Since I intend to add a timing solution this should help make this kit even safer for the motor.
Get this one and add a J+S timing box.
Get a good shop to do the work.
Pros-Very high workmanship kit, high quality parts,.. for this reason used to be considred a step up above the Vortech for some time-Has its own independent oiling system , no need to drill into oil pan.... also makes for very consistent oil pressure+ film strenght in the unit as oil temps will show less variation-Runs 7 lbs pulley stock vs many other units ( like Vortech) 8 lbs stock, this is potentially more conservative and is probably due to them wanting to avoid detonation w/o a timing solution.Since I intend to add a timing solution this should help make this kit even safer for the motor.
Get this one and add a J+S timing box.
Get a good shop to do the work.
-
jEzTeR
- Posts: 7645
- Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 2:34 pm
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- Contact:
Re: (PalmerWMD)
SWEET!
When is the install?
When is the install?
Re: (jEzTeR)
Week after next, by then I should have my painted G35 Coupoe wheels too.jEzTeR wrote:SWEET!
When is the install?
Fred..
Re: (PalmerWMD)
Sweet deal..
I just bought a 350Z....good to see the discussion on making it an absolute monster!-Chet
I just bought a 350Z....good to see the discussion on making it an absolute monster!-Chet
Recently there has been an incident were a Vorctehc failure has taken out an engine.
So ATI does have a point about the seperate oiling system being a big advatage.
That Vortech in all fairtness was runnign a 10lb pulley ( 415 rwhp), which s beyond the speced compressor speed for the Vortech ( but not for the ATI).
As members know this thread is a bit old and in teh emantime I have gone with the ATI despite the higher cost.
Fred..
So ATI does have a point about the seperate oiling system being a big advatage.
That Vortech in all fairtness was runnign a 10lb pulley ( 415 rwhp), which s beyond the speced compressor speed for the Vortech ( but not for the ATI).
As members know this thread is a bit old and in teh emantime I have gone with the ATI despite the higher cost.
Fred..
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