Apexi Multichecker and ignition timing??

[damesta]

Just wondering if anyone has expirience with one of these. I just got one for my CA and the timing feature is giving me problems. Proper timing is 15 degrees btdc and it will only show 11 degrees at idle, Ive reset it, checked all the wiring, made sure it was set up for the right engine, even moved the cas while its idling and it won't change from 11 degrees at idle, the only time it moves is if I rev the engine but thats normal.

I was under the impression that it read the actual engine base timing as well and not just the ecu timing. This isn't the case, it just reads ecu timing but regardless of that, why is it always saying 11 degrees at idle no matter what I do when it should be 15(or it should atleast change when I move the cas, right?) Any opinions.

BTW, does anyone know if theres any possible way I could wire the 180 degree signal wire and the 1 degree signal wire to the multi checker to read the base timing instead of the ecu timing? Sorry for all the questions but I can find any in depth info on this thing, the most comprehensive source I can find is the english instruction manual and it doesn't go in depth about this at all.

[c-rad]

The multichecker only shows timing ADVANCE. I don't know why you would want to see the total timing... Just add 15 to the number if it's that important.

[damesta]

Read this thread and you'll see why:

zerothread?id=156587

Why would it be showing 11 degrees advance at idle?

[damesta]

OK, from what the guys on freshalloy say, the multichecker doesn't just display timing advance, what it does show is the stock timing map which includes the advance as timing raises during revs, so 11 degrees is actually what my ecu wants the timing to be at during idle.

This totally relates to the link I posted to my other thread. So if youve read my threads this kind of proves that my engines supposed to be timed around 10 degrees like it was when I got it and not 15 degrees like it says in the fsm. So everyone that has their cas rotated all the way counterclockwise to hit 15 degrees, this could relate to you, mine ran fine at 15 degrees as well but it does run better at 11 and mode 2(the a/f monitor) on the ecu checks out as well when I'm at 11 degrees, its totally off when I time it at 15.

I'm about to open up my ecu and make sure its not socketed or anything with upgraded timing maps. I'll post up the findings.
Modified by damesta at 10:09 PM 2/15/2006

[damesta]

OK, ecu is not socketed, totally stock, anyone else running a # 78 ecu have this problem. Is there anyone running a #78 that doesn't have their cas totally counterclockwise to hit 15 degrees, if so is your cas in the middle of the adjustment area like its supposed to be?

ragenasian-don't know if you'll see this or not but you said yours did the same thing, what ecu are you running?

[boost_boy]

What you guys fail to understand is that one can easily move the lower timing cover marker which will have you lining your timing up all wrong all the time. The best thing to do if you're not sure where your timing at is to line up both cam and crank marks and then install your lower timing cover and then temporarily put your pulley on. Then and only then will you see if all your marks and markers are lining up correctly. And btw, your base timing is whatever you set it at and not where the computer sets it. And even though an engine comes from japan with the little silver sticker on the crank angle sensor screw, it doesn't mean that the lower cam cover's mark still can't be moved. And I'm pretty sure that's happened to a gang of you fresh CA boosters.

Dee

[damesta]

No, I don't fail to understand that, Ive built quite a few engines and I know how it works, Ive already done it, checked the mark on the timing gear, cam gears, crank pulley, everything lines up. I have triple checked to make sure the tdc mark on the crank pulley lines up with the tdc marks on the cam gears and timing gear as well as the marker on the lower cover. Ive tried it with 2 different timing guns, Ive even counted teeth on the belt to make sure theres no way it was off a tooth. Thats why this bugs the hell out of me, it makes no sense, Ive set timing on many different cars and Ive never had a problem I couldn't eventually figure out, please read my other thread linked above and tell me if you have any opinions on the situation.

[boost_boy]

No, I don't fail to understand that, Ive built quite a few engines and I know how it works, Ive already done it, checked the mark on the timing gear, cam gears, crank pulley, everything lines up. I have triple checked to make sure the tdc mark on the crank pulley lines up with the tdc marks on the cam gears and timing gear as well as the marker on the lower cover. Ive tried it with 2 different timing guns, Ive even counted teeth on the belt to make sure theres no way it was off a tooth. Thats why this bugs the hell out of me, it makes no sense, Ive set timing on many different cars and Ive never had a problem I couldn't eventually figure out, please read my other thread linked above and tell me if you have any opinions on the situation.

So what happens when you loosen the crank angle sensor and set your base timing to 15 degrees BTDC. If you are using that wire thingy, then you will always be wrong. You should be using a spark plug wire taped to your coil pack and using an inductive timing gun to set your timing. You do not need an advanced timing gun to do this.

Dee

[damesta]

Will please read the other thread? I explain the whole process of what Ive gone through in yet. Yes, I use the spark plug wire between the coilpack and the spark plug method, yes I use a normal inductive timing light. I have precisley followed fsm procedures for everything. When I set my timing to 15 degrees the cas is rotated almost all the counterclockwise, it starts to lean out (mode 2 on the ecu and the multi checker tell me this) and it starts to idle a little rougher, stumbles a little bit at idle, etc. It drives ok at 15 degees but just not as smooth as if its at 11 degrees.

From what I understand and others have told me about their expiriences with the multichecker, it directly displays the timing cell from the map, so if it says 11 degrees at idle, then my base should be set at 11 degrees at idle.

[boost_boy]

Will please read the other thread? I explain the whole process of what Ive gone through in yet. Yes, I use the spark plug wire between the coilpack and the spark plug method, yes I use a normal inductive timing light. I have precisley followed fsm procedures for everything. When I set my timing to 15 degrees the cas is rotated almost all the counterclockwise, it starts to lean out (mode 2 on the ecu and the multi checker tell me this) and it starts to idle a little rougher, stumbles a little bit at idle, etc. It drives ok at 15 degees but just not as smooth as if its at 11 degrees.

From what I understand and others have told me about their expiriences with the multichecker, it directly displays the timing cell from the map, so if it says 11 degrees at idle, then my base should be set at 11 degrees at idle.

Okay, with that said, I'll help you narrow this down to a few things. Lack of ground, timing belt off 1 tooth, cam angle sensor is defective and they don't always flash a code via the ecu, or change your water temperature sensor. Other than that, junk the factory stuff and get a standalone or just roll with what you got.

Dee

[damesta]

I already checked all the grounds and even added a few more, triple checked the belt, its not off a tooth, and Ive already put a new engine temp sensor in. Ecu throws no codes at all.

As far as the CAS goes, I know they can go bad without throwing a code but I was under the impression that they either worked or didn't work, I didn't think it was possible for them to throw a timing reading off or anything like that. I'll switch it out with another and see if it makes any difference.

Thanks for your opionions though, you are seriousley the only person in both this and the timing thread to even try to figure it out. I'm pretty much stumped, I'll try the CAS thing but if that doesn't work I'll pretty much be convinced that my engines supposed to be timed at 10 degrees.

The funny thing is that the car actually runs really good, nice power, boosts well, everything is good, this isn't a drivability issue at all. I'm just anal about this kinda stuff and it bugs the hell out of me to not understand why its doing this.

[damesta]

OK, well everything was gone over once again, rechecked just to be 100% positive nothing was off and everythings good. I have the timing set at 11 degrees(thats what the timing lights reading anyway) and it runs great, A/F is good, mode 1 and 2 on the ecu check out and it passes the mixture ratio tests, idles steady, etc. I am positive that timing is set within factory specs right now, what I'm not positive about is if the 11 degree reading is accurate. The only thing left that could be causing this is the CAS. If its somehow messing up the reading and causing it to signal 11 degrees instead of 15. I have no idea how it could possibly do that but I got good deal on another one (8.00, lol) and its on the way. So I'll give that a try on Monday when it gets here. I'm tapped out of ideas though. I'll post the results.