Rogue One wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:49 pm
krimsonviper wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:57 pm
This doesn't mean Trump isn't any less of an idiot or a detriment to the democracy here in the U.S. or that he is "exonerated" from obstruction of justice, just that there isn't enough evidence to prove either way. This report doesn't excuse any ethical shadiness or the implications of what others in the future can do by breaking political norms and bending the rules is a heavy weight to bear. The report hasn't been released to the public yet and doesn't do any less damage in belief of our democratic system radicalizing our political culture and turning the majority of U.S. citizens into doing nothing pushing us closer to greater possibility of becoming a fascist state.
Not all revolutions are made in blood and in fact most aren't.
If Trump is the "idiot" every never Trumper thinks he is, than I'm glad he's president because he was smart enough to defeat all of of his political opponents, including one that rigged a primary! Makes you wonder who ties their shoelaces for them if they're that stupid.
This isn't the idiotic tendencies that I am talking about. I'm talking about how he's weakened the U.S. ties with our allies and embarrassed us with liking people like Duterte, Putin, and Kim. He's also not addressed anything about losing jobs across nations and not preparing the U.S. economically for when a lot of labor jobs are outsourced or automated like with what's been happening. Or how our immigration policies have become so ridiculous that not only has India developed a tech hub that rivals Silicon Valley that was founded on immigrants, but Canada is now developing a tech hub that will rival it as well, outsourcing more jobs to Canada.
There's a lack of competitive intelligence that is standing right here in our faces and there have been people squawking about for years and the public and our government has done nothing to address it but shout "the U.S. is great!" and cheer blindly as things crumble around us. For f*** sake, our infrastructure is crumbling which is an untapped hub for U.S. jobs to pump our economy, saves us citizens money, or stopping upgrades to our infrastructure to combat climate change that saves lives and unwanted pain.
Your giddiness about the brick that's been thrown into our democracy's window is unsettling and I'm not sure why you're relishing in it. You need to be on the side that is telling the people to stop choosing between a douche bag and s*** sandwich, because you're honestly looking very happy with one or the other because I don't know which one Trump is.
AZhitman wrote: ↑Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:03 pm
Love ya KV, but that's a dangerous line of thinking.
"We all know you're a child molester, but there isn't enough evidence to prove it."
Imagine that's what is said about you. No, really imagine it. See, that's not how America works.
Now, I'm not here to fawn over POTUS. I'll concur that he's a poor communicator and probably should shut the hell up. However, I've yet to hear anyone point out one demonstrably detrimental thing he's done. I'd challenge any of his detractors to present one negative impact his policies have directly had on their lives, in fact.
See, getting caught up in the us v them machine is exactly the kind of media-driven hysterical lunacy you're expected to buy into. Fascism? Far from it. See, laws already exist to prevent and punish any such behavior, yet the allegations continue. But they're hollow.
We're not going to have open borders. Period, end of discussion. We're not going to allow non-citizens to vote. Period, end of discussion. We're not going to cater and bow to every fringe group who conflates "equality" with "special treatment." Nope, not logical.
Where's the fascism? Or is that an emotionally-charged buzzword which really doesn't fit in this circumstance? As someone who believes in using the right word for the application, I'd challenge you to support that one with evidence.
Radicalization? Bro. When his opponents have collectively dived headlong into absolute insanity SIMPLY because they "don't like" POTUS, I have to ask, who exactly is radicalized? Again, while I'm no DJT supporter, I find no evidence to support claims of "radicalization" coming from those who do. Rather, I see people of all walks of life, hard-working people who love America and the Constitution, rolling their eyes at the screeching hysterics of the left.
BTW, "political norms" are what The Crown wanted from us in the late 1700's and we told them to f*** off. Decorum is vapid and useless, just like rituals.
Also, to your point, I'm pretty sure "bending the rules" is nothing new. Let's not pretend this POTUS has the corner on that market.
Hey Greg! I'm glad this site is still up man and I'm hoping you and Becky are doing well. I see one of your kids now has a kid and seeing that made me feel real old, but happy for your growing family.
Your argument has a huge fallacy. If I am an accused child molester and after two years of intense investigation of committing child molestation, half a dozen pleas are taken and a guilty verdict for people involved with me and the case against me doesn't present enough evidence to convict me, but neither exonerates me, I think I have a bigger problem that is present. The same could be said for hundreds of mobsters that committed heinous acts of crime, but not enough evidence could be presented to convict them doesn't make them innocent.
Onto your second point, you're asking people to define an incredibly abstract point that it turns into a homework assignment. One that I would happily take on if I wasn't already swamped with school work and I'm sure other's would to if there were some bigger reward other than "I told you so," but you can see from my above post that his continual strict immigration policies are affecting work. Lets also mention E.P.A. repeals for simply lining pockets with money, but poisons towns around coal mines and oil lines. How about federal funds being pulled from my state to fund a border wall that will do nothing to curb the issues but satiates a man with confidence issues and the screaming U.S. public ignorant to the fact that the wall will actually do nothing, but cost me, my nieces, nephews, your daughters, granddaughters and whoever else pays taxes in the coming decades. How about the growing deficit that takes advantage of the poor, of which I am one of at the moment, and loss of jobs, low wages, and growing divide between rich and poor. Don't get me wrong, I am okay with profits, but not at the sacrifices that currently being paid.
As for fascism, we check a lot of the boxes for early signs of fascism and all it takes is a growing parochial populace to flip a democracy into an autocracy. Nationalism has exploded under Trump so much that neo-nazi's have become reinvigorated under his presidency instead of sticking to the underside of the beast. Support for it lies here:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/holoc ... s-fascism/
And I'll narrow this one down to one I like "religion and government intertwined." Pence has had multiple instances where his Christianity interfered with making proper decisions for the people he represents. His run in with dirty needles in Indiana and the overall pressing issue of pro-life which is deeply tied with religious beliefs. Identification of enemies is another one you actually touched on with the "us versus them" decree because you constantly hear that in all of our politics and it's the reason Congress is a gigantic flop and turns into partisan issues when there's no need for partisan issues. Nothing but people vying for power, obsessed with re-election and not for things that actually help the people, even the reasonable requests that non-politicians but constituents on both sides of the aisle want. Corporate protection is another and I think with the audience here the biggest, boldest case for this was the bank bailout.
Make no mistake about it, I'm not a blind believer of Obama being a holier than thou individual. He is Leagues better than Trump as are 43 previous presidents we've had as stated by political scientists across the spectrum. Trump is simply a result of the growing ailments within the country and people like Rogue sit here and bring nothing to the table but jokes and sand to throw in eyes. The same flavor that I tasted while opening this thread and reading the O.P. Both sides of the aisle are radicalized, which is why nothing gets done anymore. Simply being seen with the enemy deems you an enemy. The people being radicalized on the right is the alt-right. Sly as they are in the lack of definition which stops any tangible movement against them, but the fact remains that they love Trump just as the radical left love Obama. That same "absolute insanity SIMPLY because they don't like POTUS" plays with Trump as well, repealing so many of Obama era policies.
Political norms are very much needed. Recent case in point is Trump's use of national emergency to build the wall. That kind of power wielding has been laying in wait since the Constitution was made law, the caveat is that we never expected someone to break the norm by enacting it so it was never defined. With Trump's presidency it seems like there are many holes in the presidency that were never expected to be poked because the political norm was that an idiot wouldn't elected. I guess with the Framers fallout of only white property owners being able to vote, they didn't see this one coming. They need to be plugged, but again with the failures of Congress, will they get plugged?
To your final point, no, but it doesn't excuse the bending doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue. Your spit in the face of rituals and political norms is a very liberal statement and one that dances on chaos if fully enacted when that part of conservatism is eliminated in politics as I've stated in political norms in my previous paragraph. Also, yeah we left Britain a long time ago, but did the revolution really need to happen? Honestly sit there and tell me your answer and answer that for me truthfully and the reasons. Did we need to secede from the crown?
My argument was never "it's all Trumps fault." My argument was Trump is a result of underlying issues in our political culture that has been growing for decades. Progress is not inevitable and progress is reversible, but people need to be vigilant and our current state of affairs is a showing of how vigilant we have been.
Phew, long post is long.