Anyone have any news on the Mueller report?

[AZhitman]

Just wondering, since I hadn't seen any celebrating from Howie or the others.

Seems I may have a few bets to collect on. BRB.

[Rogue One]

MSNBC's Joy Reid Suggests Cover-Up Underway With Mueller Report

[krimsonviper]

This doesn't mean Trump isn't any less of an idiot or a detriment to the democracy here in the U.S. or that he is "exonerated" from obstruction of justice, just that there isn't enough evidence to prove either way. This report doesn't excuse any ethical shadiness or the implications of what others in the future can do by breaking political norms and bending the rules is a heavy weight to bear. The report hasn't been released to the public yet and doesn't do any less damage in belief of our democratic system radicalizing our political culture and turning the majority of U.S. citizens into doing nothing pushing us closer to greater possibility of becoming a fascist state.

Not all revolutions are made in blood and in fact most aren't.

[Rogue One]

This doesn't mean Trump isn't any less of an idiot or a detriment to the democracy here in the U.S. or that he is "exonerated" from obstruction of justice, just that there isn't enough evidence to prove either way. This report doesn't excuse any ethical shadiness or the implications of what others in the future can do by breaking political norms and bending the rules is a heavy weight to bear. The report hasn't been released to the public yet and doesn't do any less damage in belief of our democratic system radicalizing our political culture and turning the majority of U.S. citizens into doing nothing pushing us closer to greater possibility of becoming a fascist state.

Not all revolutions are made in blood and in fact most aren't.

If Trump is the "idiot" every never Trumper thinks he is, than I'm glad he's president because he was smart enough to defeat all of of his political opponents, including one that rigged a primary! Makes you wonder who ties their shoelaces for them if they're that stupid.

[AZhitman]

Love ya KV, but that's a dangerous line of thinking.

"We all know you're a child molester, but there isn't enough evidence to prove it."

Imagine that's what is said about you. No, really imagine it. See, that's not how America works.

Now, I'm not here to fawn over POTUS. I'll concur that he's a poor communicator and probably should shut the hell up. However, I've yet to hear anyone point out one demonstrably detrimental thing he's done. I'd challenge any of his detractors to present one negative impact his policies have directly had on their lives, in fact.

See, getting caught up in the us v them machine is exactly the kind of media-driven hysterical lunacy you're expected to buy into. Fascism? Far from it. See, laws already exist to prevent and punish any such behavior, yet the allegations continue. But they're hollow.

We're not going to have open borders. Period, end of discussion. We're not going to allow non-citizens to vote. Period, end of discussion. We're not going to cater and bow to every fringe group who conflates "equality" with "special treatment." Nope, not logical.

Where's the fascism? Or is that an emotionally-charged buzzword which really doesn't fit in this circumstance? As someone who believes in using the right word for the application, I'd challenge you to support that one with evidence.

Radicalization? Bro. When his opponents have collectively dived headlong into absolute insanity SIMPLY because they "don't like" POTUS, I have to ask, who exactly is radicalized? Again, while I'm no DJT supporter, I find no evidence to support claims of "radicalization" coming from those who do. Rather, I see people of all walks of life, hard-working people who love America and the Constitution, rolling their eyes at the screeching hysterics of the left.

BTW, "political norms" are what The Crown wanted from us in the late 1700's and we told them to f*** off. Decorum is vapid and useless, just like rituals.

Also, to your point, I'm pretty sure "bending the rules" is nothing new. Let's not pretend this POTUS has the corner on that market.

[Rogue One]

If you put all the pieces together here's what you get. The DNC rigs the Democratic Primary Election against Bernie Sanders so Hillary can win the nomination. Obama's administration starts to request surveillance on Trump, his family, his transition team, and anyone associated with him. Donna Brazil gives Hillary the questions to a debate. The DNC pays Christopher Steele to come up with a smear dossier about Trump. The mainstream media releases a taped conversation about Trump talking about grabbing women parts. After all of this Trump still wins the General Election.

Obama orders an investigation into Russia meddling in our elections. Obama changes Executive Order 12333 to allow more agencies to have access to surveillance data. The Democrat Party comes up with a scandal that Trump colluded with Russia to win the election with no evidence or proof. This wild claim is backed up by the mainstream media. Obama hold overs start unmasking Trump's transition team and staff members then release the classified information to the mainstream media. Why? Because the DNC and the Obama administration colluded with the intelligence community to thwart Trump's campaign efforts to get him elected president.

All this Russia collusion is an attempt to cover up the fact that the Obama administration, the intelligence community, the DNC, along with the mainstream media used our nation’s surveillance as a political tool to try to get Hillary elected President. This makes Watergate look like a kindergarten play. Let that sink in.

[AZhitman]

Yep. If you talk to people who are actually "boots on the ground" and actively involved in the political machine, rather than listening to the sh*t-for-brains talentless trained monkey talking heads in the media, many tell the same story - DNC and GOP alike. When both sides agree on something, you know something went down.

[Rogue One]

How to Trap Wild Animals

Put out food. Get them used to eating well without having to hunt/work for it. They get fat and lazy.

After a week, put up one small part of a fence/cage. They become inured to it, ignore it and keep feasting.

Add second component, wait another week and add a third wall and repeat until the animals are used to eating inside a cage. Last day, shut the door. They won’t even look up from the trough.

D’s and MSM fell into a similar trap; it took two-and-a-half years.

The door was sprung via Barr’s 4-page “mini report” and they all went ballistic!

“We demand the FULL report!" "Barr is biased!" "Complete transparency!" are the cries of the socialist/libtards running for the next Presidency and echoed by the MSM.

Now, Barr releases the report. Total nothingburger.

However, this is where we use their own demands against them.

Barr counters with, "Since you have–rightfully so–demanded FULL TRANSPARENCY, and I agree, I will also release the FISA warrant that was used to launch the entire illegal SC investigation."

"Oh, while I'm at it, H & H discovered some tampered with 302's, and we have the DNC's server, and Weiner's laptop, and…"

The only thing more fun than winning a chess match is to allow the opponent to purposely put your king in check and then counter with one stealth move that puts their king in checkmate!

[krimsonviper]

This doesn't mean Trump isn't any less of an idiot or a detriment to the democracy here in the U.S. or that he is "exonerated" from obstruction of justice, just that there isn't enough evidence to prove either way. This report doesn't excuse any ethical shadiness or the implications of what others in the future can do by breaking political norms and bending the rules is a heavy weight to bear. The report hasn't been released to the public yet and doesn't do any less damage in belief of our democratic system radicalizing our political culture and turning the majority of U.S. citizens into doing nothing pushing us closer to greater possibility of becoming a fascist state.

Not all revolutions are made in blood and in fact most aren't.

If Trump is the "idiot" every never Trumper thinks he is, than I'm glad he's president because he was smart enough to defeat all of of his political opponents, including one that rigged a primary! Makes you wonder who ties their shoelaces for them if they're that stupid.

This isn't the idiotic tendencies that I am talking about. I'm talking about how he's weakened the U.S. ties with our allies and embarrassed us with liking people like Duterte, Putin, and Kim. He's also not addressed anything about losing jobs across nations and not preparing the U.S. economically for when a lot of labor jobs are outsourced or automated like with what's been happening. Or how our immigration policies have become so ridiculous that not only has India developed a tech hub that rivals Silicon Valley that was founded on immigrants, but Canada is now developing a tech hub that will rival it as well, outsourcing more jobs to Canada.

There's a lack of competitive intelligence that is standing right here in our faces and there have been people squawking about for years and the public and our government has done nothing to address it but shout "the U.S. is great!" and cheer blindly as things crumble around us. For f*** sake, our infrastructure is crumbling which is an untapped hub for U.S. jobs to pump our economy, saves us citizens money, or stopping upgrades to our infrastructure to combat climate change that saves lives and unwanted pain.

Your giddiness about the brick that's been thrown into our democracy's window is unsettling and I'm not sure why you're relishing in it. You need to be on the side that is telling the people to stop choosing between a douche bag and s*** sandwich, because you're honestly looking very happy with one or the other because I don't know which one Trump is.

Love ya KV, but that's a dangerous line of thinking.

"We all know you're a child molester, but there isn't enough evidence to prove it."

Imagine that's what is said about you. No, really imagine it. See, that's not how America works.

Now, I'm not here to fawn over POTUS. I'll concur that he's a poor communicator and probably should shut the hell up. However, I've yet to hear anyone point out one demonstrably detrimental thing he's done. I'd challenge any of his detractors to present one negative impact his policies have directly had on their lives, in fact.

See, getting caught up in the us v them machine is exactly the kind of media-driven hysterical lunacy you're expected to buy into. Fascism? Far from it. See, laws already exist to prevent and punish any such behavior, yet the allegations continue. But they're hollow.

We're not going to have open borders. Period, end of discussion. We're not going to allow non-citizens to vote. Period, end of discussion. We're not going to cater and bow to every fringe group who conflates "equality" with "special treatment." Nope, not logical.

Where's the fascism? Or is that an emotionally-charged buzzword which really doesn't fit in this circumstance? As someone who believes in using the right word for the application, I'd challenge you to support that one with evidence.

Radicalization? Bro. When his opponents have collectively dived headlong into absolute insanity SIMPLY because they "don't like" POTUS, I have to ask, who exactly is radicalized? Again, while I'm no DJT supporter, I find no evidence to support claims of "radicalization" coming from those who do. Rather, I see people of all walks of life, hard-working people who love America and the Constitution, rolling their eyes at the screeching hysterics of the left.

BTW, "political norms" are what The Crown wanted from us in the late 1700's and we told them to f*** off. Decorum is vapid and useless, just like rituals.

Also, to your point, I'm pretty sure "bending the rules" is nothing new. Let's not pretend this POTUS has the corner on that market.

Hey Greg! I'm glad this site is still up man and I'm hoping you and Becky are doing well. I see one of your kids now has a kid and seeing that made me feel real old, but happy for your growing family.

Your argument has a huge fallacy. If I am an accused child molester and after two years of intense investigation of committing child molestation, half a dozen pleas are taken and a guilty verdict for people involved with me and the case against me doesn't present enough evidence to convict me, but neither exonerates me, I think I have a bigger problem that is present. The same could be said for hundreds of mobsters that committed heinous acts of crime, but not enough evidence could be presented to convict them doesn't make them innocent.

Onto your second point, you're asking people to define an incredibly abstract point that it turns into a homework assignment. One that I would happily take on if I wasn't already swamped with school work and I'm sure other's would to if there were some bigger reward other than "I told you so," but you can see from my above post that his continual strict immigration policies are affecting work. Lets also mention E.P.A. repeals for simply lining pockets with money, but poisons towns around coal mines and oil lines. How about federal funds being pulled from my state to fund a border wall that will do nothing to curb the issues but satiates a man with confidence issues and the screaming U.S. public ignorant to the fact that the wall will actually do nothing, but cost me, my nieces, nephews, your daughters, granddaughters and whoever else pays taxes in the coming decades. How about the growing deficit that takes advantage of the poor, of which I am one of at the moment, and loss of jobs, low wages, and growing divide between rich and poor. Don't get me wrong, I am okay with profits, but not at the sacrifices that currently being paid.

As for fascism, we check a lot of the boxes for early signs of fascism and all it takes is a growing parochial populace to flip a democracy into an autocracy. Nationalism has exploded under Trump so much that neo-nazi's have become reinvigorated under his presidency instead of sticking to the underside of the beast. Support for it lies here:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/holoc ... s-fascism/
And I'll narrow this one down to one I like "religion and government intertwined." Pence has had multiple instances where his Christianity interfered with making proper decisions for the people he represents. His run in with dirty needles in Indiana and the overall pressing issue of pro-life which is deeply tied with religious beliefs. Identification of enemies is another one you actually touched on with the "us versus them" decree because you constantly hear that in all of our politics and it's the reason Congress is a gigantic flop and turns into partisan issues when there's no need for partisan issues. Nothing but people vying for power, obsessed with re-election and not for things that actually help the people, even the reasonable requests that non-politicians but constituents on both sides of the aisle want. Corporate protection is another and I think with the audience here the biggest, boldest case for this was the bank bailout.

Make no mistake about it, I'm not a blind believer of Obama being a holier than thou individual. He is Leagues better than Trump as are 43 previous presidents we've had as stated by political scientists across the spectrum. Trump is simply a result of the growing ailments within the country and people like Rogue sit here and bring nothing to the table but jokes and sand to throw in eyes. The same flavor that I tasted while opening this thread and reading the O.P. Both sides of the aisle are radicalized, which is why nothing gets done anymore. Simply being seen with the enemy deems you an enemy. The people being radicalized on the right is the alt-right. Sly as they are in the lack of definition which stops any tangible movement against them, but the fact remains that they love Trump just as the radical left love Obama. That same "absolute insanity SIMPLY because they don't like POTUS" plays with Trump as well, repealing so many of Obama era policies.

Political norms are very much needed. Recent case in point is Trump's use of national emergency to build the wall. That kind of power wielding has been laying in wait since the Constitution was made law, the caveat is that we never expected someone to break the norm by enacting it so it was never defined. With Trump's presidency it seems like there are many holes in the presidency that were never expected to be poked because the political norm was that an idiot wouldn't elected. I guess with the Framers fallout of only white property owners being able to vote, they didn't see this one coming. They need to be plugged, but again with the failures of Congress, will they get plugged?

To your final point, no, but it doesn't excuse the bending doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue. Your spit in the face of rituals and political norms is a very liberal statement and one that dances on chaos if fully enacted when that part of conservatism is eliminated in politics as I've stated in political norms in my previous paragraph. Also, yeah we left Britain a long time ago, but did the revolution really need to happen? Honestly sit there and tell me your answer and answer that for me truthfully and the reasons. Did we need to secede from the crown?

My argument was never "it's all Trumps fault." My argument was Trump is a result of underlying issues in our political culture that has been growing for decades. Progress is not inevitable and progress is reversible, but people need to be vigilant and our current state of affairs is a showing of how vigilant we have been.

Phew, long post is long.

[krimsonviper]

Oh and Rogue, your post about DNC is a whataboutism. Don't act like the propaganda machines.

Also, I looked for places saying Barr released Mueller's full report but I couldn't find it. Can you hook me up, please?

[szh]

Also, I looked for places saying Barr released Mueller's full report but I couldn't find it. Can you hook me up, please?

Has not happened yet. Will take a while, till confidential stuff (like intelligence sources, etc.) are redacted.

Z

[Rogue One]

This isn't the idiotic tendencies that I am talking about. I'm talking about how he's weakened the U.S. ties with our allies and embarrassed us with liking people like Duterte, Putin, and Kim. He's also not addressed anything about losing jobs across nations and not preparing the U.S. economically for when a lot of labor jobs are outsourced or automated like with what's been happening. Or how our immigration policies have become so ridiculous that not only has India developed a tech hub that rivals Silicon Valley that was founded on immigrants, but Canada is now developing a tech hub that will rival it as well, outsourcing more jobs to Canada.

Are you willing/able to share your State Department credentials? Clearly you're privy to stuff us normies aren't, or are you just blowing smoke up my skirt? How exactly has he "weakened the U.S. ties with our allies"? More importantly, how is denuclearization and reunification of the Korean peninsula an "embarrassment"?

"He's also not addressed anything about losing jobs across nations..." Say what???

"...not preparing the U.S. economically for when a lot of labor jobs are outsourced or automated..." IIRC, Obama's policy was "job’s aren’t coming back". Before electricity, we had lamplighters to light and maintain street lights; before alarm clocks, “knocker-uppers” would go to the home of their clients and knock on the door. Care to enlighten us on what US policy was for those lost jobs? For that matter, should this not be the purview of the States rather than the Federal Government?

"Or how our immigration policies have become so ridiculous.." Trump's been in office for two years, so the mess didn't start on his watch. Not to mention the D's have fought him tooth and nail on any immigration reform.

Let me share some advice someone gave me: "Don't act like the propaganda machines".

[krimsonviper]

This isn't the idiotic tendencies that I am talking about. I'm talking about how he's weakened the U.S. ties with our allies and embarrassed us with liking people like Duterte, Putin, and Kim. He's also not addressed anything about losing jobs across nations and not preparing the U.S. economically for when a lot of labor jobs are outsourced or automated like with what's been happening. Or how our immigration policies have become so ridiculous that not only has India developed a tech hub that rivals Silicon Valley that was founded on immigrants, but Canada is now developing a tech hub that will rival it as well, outsourcing more jobs to Canada.

Are you willing/able to share your State Department credentials? Clearly you're privy to stuff us normies aren't, or are you just blowing smoke up my skirt? How exactly has he "weakened the U.S. ties with our allies"? More importantly, how is denuclearization and reunification of the Korean peninsula an "embarrassment"?

"He's also not addressed anything about losing jobs across nations..." Say what???

"...not preparing the U.S. economically for when a lot of labor jobs are outsourced or automated..." IIRC, Obama's policy was "job’s aren’t coming back". Before electricity, we had lamplighters to light and maintain street lights; before alarm clocks, “knocker-uppers” would go to the home of their clients and knock on the door. Care to enlighten us on what US policy was for those lost jobs? For that matter, should this not be the purview of the States rather than the Federal Government?

"Or how our immigration policies have become so ridiculous.." Trump's been in office for two years, so the mess didn't start on his watch. Not to mention the D's have fought him tooth and nail on any immigration reform.

Let me share some advice someone gave me: "Don't act like the propaganda machines".

Trump hasn't denuclearized anything. They are done testing, but they're hiding their goods. The reunification of Korea hasn't happened, either, as there's still a North and South Korea. Those were both embarrassments because Kim didn't agree to anything while we pulled ourselves away. Sounds rather one sided to me. A lot more one sided than the Iran Deal Trump was so adamant about pulling out of. Speaking of the Iran deal, that also shows how our ties with our allies has weakened. Also many public leaders are taking shots at Trump and that's been all over the media - Macron, Trudeau, Merkel. Clearly in public's eye and not in need of any kind of security clearance. Our political influence across Asia is also weakening as China continues their train track building and their recent sphere of influence in Africa.

Yeah, he hasn't addressed them. By "addressing" I mean he hasn't stopped it like he said he was going to. Those Trane employee still lost their jobs, then people who lost their jobs because of tariffs would also like a word with Trump. Sure there were minimal gains, but overall more job losses as multiple companies have downsized since the tax reform was pushed through. Pushed through when the majority constituents on both sides didn't want it in it's present form. Trickle Down Economics is a sham and apparently the public forgot that from over 30 years ago.

Yeah, those jobs aren't coming back and the low employment is mostly based in temporary jobs which offer low wages, no retirement, or medical. Trump is trying to bring back jobs that are being phased out like coal and other jobs that are cheaper to manufacture in other countries while hurting job not hit by cheaper goods yet and immigration that helps to grow an economy with not only labor, but ideas. The U.S. has always been a hub for growth based on ideas and the American Dream is to realize those ideas within this land. The only saving Grace that the U.S. will have for work are critical thinking jobs and essential work like mechanics and other handymen. Soon all repetitive work will end here and that an issue for all of the government bodies need to address.

People fight with Trump on his reform because many of his ideas have no basis in proven strategies, but useless rhetoric that sounds good in rallies. Not only that, but his cabinet is full of racists, so it's a bit hard to deal with Trump on anything regarding immigration. If you paid attention to much of my post, I'm not only implicating Trump on many issues, but Trump and Obama and in this one Reagan. And I can say I don't like Bush, Jr. and Clinton for recent presidents and on the fence about Bush, Sr.

And I'm not running in propaganda, but if you were a bit more privy on the ideas that I've laid out then you would know this. Your propaganda I'm speaking of is your s*** posts of memes, knee jerk reactions, and conspiracy theories that is very similar to all of the 24 hour news outlets, mainly Fox.

[krimsonviper]

Also, I looked for places saying Barr released Mueller's full report but I couldn't find it. Can you hook me up, please?

Has not happened yet. Will take a while, till confidential stuff (like intelligence sources, etc.) are redacted.

Z

That's what I thought. A quick search and review of all the news outlets didn't seem to have the same idea as Rogue's had so I had no idea what to make of his "how to trap a wild animal" post. Thank you.

[Bubba1]

Z is correct, add to that sealed grand jury testimony, potential conflicts with other active cases (SDNY, EDV), it might be awhile until we see it. The one disturbing thing many seem to have dismissed is that Barr's summary conflicts with Mueller's summary. Mueller made it clear that his report does not charge the President of collusion. That part seems settled. But Mueller also clearly noted that regarding obstruction, the report does NOT necessarily exonerate him. Instead, he laid out all of the evidence for others to decide. Barr then inaccurately proclaimed Trump's been cleared on everything. that's not true. But that didn't stop Trump and his Trumpiteers from proclaiming to total vindication. This is nothing more than partisan politics. Everyone (both sides) always try to claim victory and bash the other side whenever the pendulum swings their way without ever bothering to read the frigging evidence. Congress does it daily, Barr just did it, and one could argue some here bashing Howie are doing it (though Howie does deserve bashing as he does it too ).
Here's a crazy thought, why not wait until the evidence is actually laid out before deciding. Do facts/evidence not matter anymore?

I also don't believe Trump's problems are over. The SDNY/EDV cases are all coming up, so it gonna get far more interesting.

[szh]

The redacted Mueller report is now available.

look at page 182 for the conclusion. I will not comment here on it till people get a chance to read it for themselves.

I strongly recommend reading the report - not just skimming it - too easy to make assumptions otherwise.

Z

[macgiver]

Shakespeare's - Much ado about NOTHING

[AZhitman]

The assumption is still safe to make: Lots of money spent, lots of gnashing of teeth, and lots of time wasted, to try and "get" a loudmouth buffoon who's guilty of nothing more than being a loudmouth buffoon.

Partisanship is idiocy, and those who worship at the feet of these morons deserve the government they get.

Meanwhile, taxation remains theft, DJT is still your POTUS, and the left continues to eat itself, having become stuck in an untenable and indefensible position.

[AZhitman]

To be fair, KV (and I'll get back to the bulk of your reply later), this quote:

Also many public leaders are taking shots at Trump and that's been all over the media - Macron, Trudeau, Merkel is hardly an indictment of this administration. Those three have proven themselves to be utterly useless, if not outright dangerous.

Fact is, they can all three collectively F off. When they get their own s*** together, they can disrespect the leadership of the US. Perhpas they need a history lesson to remind them why their jobs are so cushy. Diaper contents, all three of them.

[Bubba1]

The redacted Mueller report is now available.

look at page 182 for the conclusion. I will not comment here on it till people get a chance to read it for themselves.

I strongly recommend reading the report - not just skimming it - too easy to make assumptions otherwise.

Z

Agree 100%,Z. Sadly, I'm afraid most are not going to bother reading it and instead rely solely on interpretations by their preferred media choice or politically slanted memes on social media. Such is the current state of American politics. The raw info is literally sitting there for the open minded.

[AZhitman]

Sadly, I'm afraid that even after I've read the report, with a fully open mind, considering I have no dog in the fight, when I restate my previous position that this was a political witch hunt and much ado about nothing [confirmed by the report], the politically-motivated sheep will continue to parrot their preferred media choice or politically slanted memes on social media and dismiss that position as ill-informed or media-influenced (which is neat, since I haven't watched the news since mid-90s.

It's almost as if you're not one of the cool kids unless you have a torch and a pitchfork.

[RCA]

Well the Trump's legal team disagrees with you Greg.

Trump claims the report will exonerate him but they fight like hell to keep it as secret as possible.

The point of the investigation was about Russian meddling. They found that.
Their isn't evidence that Trump work directly with Russia to help win the election.
We know that the campaign knew that Russia's interference would help them win.

We know Comey was fired because of the investigation AND that Trump tried to fire Mueller. OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE counts even if you don't pull it off.

But yeah other than the mountains of evidence it was really all just a witch hunt

[Rogue One]

Well the Trump's legal team disagrees with you Greg.

Trump claims the report will exonerate him but they fight like hell to keep it as secret as possible.

The point of the investigation was about Russian meddling. They found that.
Their isn't evidence that Trump work directly with Russia to help win the election.
We know that the campaign knew that Russia's interference would help them win.

We know Comey was fired because of the investigation AND that Trump tried to fire Mueller. OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE counts even if you don't pull it off.

But yeah other than the mountains of evidence it was really all just a witch hunt

Go back and reread the report. You're parroting flawed talking points.

The point of the investigation was NOT "Russian meddling" it was about anyone on Team Trump colluding with the Russians, which they did NOT find. The "Russian meddling" was a separate issue (I'm still waiting for them to find a single person whose vote was swayed by such meddling) and frankly nothing more than a red herring (pun intended).

As for obstruction of justice, what you're saying is, even though they couldn’t find a single example of Trump obstructing justice, they aren’t sure he didn’t and they just didn’t find it. I'm pretty sure this is not permitted under Justice Department law. You do not 'not charge' somebody after an investigation and then list all the things you think they did. Seriously, that’s what Comey did to Hillary, and that’s why some Democrats wanted him fired, or have you forgotten that?

Here's the bottom line: The conclusion from Mueller’s Democrat prosecutors is largely misleading and it fails a basic logic test. It was not Mueller’s job to prove a negative. Face it, Team Mueller came up entirely empty on their hunt for collusion, and claiming they could NOT fully “exonerate” the president is merely grasping at straws.

[AZhitman]

RCA, I realize you *want* it to be an indictment of the character of someone you inexplicably hate.

The truth is, you can want in one hand and s*** in the other. Let us know which one fills up first.

Simply screeching "impeach him" isn't how our CJ system operates. Due process is required. You really have bought into the elementary-school level analysis of this case if you think there are "mountains" of evidence.

See, one of us has spent a lot of time in a courtroom, so take this as a bit of "been there, done that:"

Mueller got, literally, everything he asked for. A million pages of documents. Emails. Access to any and all communications. Remember who didn't comply like that? Yep, the DNC's she-cuck stooge who couldn't even win a rigged election. Deleted emails, Bleachbit, smashed hard drives, threats, and mysterious suicides. The left can't even decide whether Mueller is the good guy or the bad guy, because they're flailing in the dark against something that makes them sad. But we're supposed to indict someone simply because he talks like a moron? Be happy we don't apply that logic to everyone facing allegations. Facts matter. Your feelings? Not so much.

If you fancy yourself on the right side of legality, you've got a funny way of showing it.

[RCA]

Well the Trump's legal team disagrees with you Greg.

Trump claims the report will exonerate him but they fight like hell to keep it as secret as possible.

The point of the investigation was about Russian meddling. They found that.
Their isn't evidence that Trump work directly with Russia to help win the election.
We know that the campaign knew that Russia's interference would help them win.

We know Comey was fired because of the investigation AND that Trump tried to fire Mueller. OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE counts even if you don't pull it off.

But yeah other than the mountains of evidence it was really all just a witch hunt

• Go back and reread the report. You're parroting flawed talking points.
• The point of the investigation was NOT "Russian meddling"
• it was about anyone on Team Trump colluding with the Russians, which they did NOT find.
• As for obstruction of justice, what you're saying is, even though they couldn’t find a single example of Trump obstructing justice
• Face it, Team Mueller came up entirely empty on their hunt for collusion, and claiming they could NOT fully “exonerate” the president is merely grasping at straws.

• The Mueller probe was about Russia meddling in US Elections through Trump Campaign and more. You're parroting flawed talking points.
• Rodger Stone and Trump Jr. both worked with Russians to hurt Hilary and the Mueller report shows that the campaign knew Russia was helping to benefit the Trump campaign.
• The Mueller report proved that Trump indeed fired Comey not because he mishandled Trump's sworn enemy's investigation (not sure why people ever believed that nonsense) but Trump fired Comey because of the Mueller investigation. Also the report shows that he tried to fire Mueller. You can obstruct justice just by trying not actually executing. Trump obstructed justice. Not sure why you think otherwise
  
  Trump said so on TV:
  https://youtu.be/XuZc5RKjFl4
• The problem is Trump thinks this exonerates him just like he thinks LITERALLY ANYTHING exonerates him. Have you been paying attention? The bottom line is Trump knows he in the thick of it, but Colt 45 will do anything to keep him afloat. He knew the Mueller investigation would Fu*k him, he said it himself.
• Finally why hide it? Why do all the shady sh*t he's been doing if he knew he would be exonerated? WHY? If he's not a criminal he sure acts like one.

Rogue I will leave you with this,
The official Mueller Nothing-Burger:

You will have to eat this with a fork and knife!



Trump (Mueller investigation alone)

• 22 months
• Cost ~$25mil, but netted ~$48mil from unpaid taxes/fines/seized assets. ~100% ROI.
• 34 Indictments (individuals)
• 3 Indictments (companies)
• 7 guilty pleas and counting
• 1 conviction and counting

Some of the players:

• Indicted: Roger Stone
• Indicted: Paul Manafort
• Indicted: Rick Gates
• Indicted: George Papadopoulos
• Indicted: Michael Flynn
• Indicted: Michael Cohen
• Indicted: Richard Pinedo
• Indicted: Alex van der Zwaan
• Indicted: Konstantin Kilimnik
• Indicted: 12 Russian GRU officers
• Indicted: Yevgeny Prigozhin
• Indicted: Mikhail Burchik
• Indicted: Aleksandra Krylova
• Indicted: Anna Bogacheva
• Indicted: Sergey Polozov
• Indicted: Maria Bovda
• Indicted: Dzheykhun Aslanov
• Indicted: Vadim Podkopaev
• Indicted: Irina Kaverzina
• Indicted: Gleb Vasilchenko
• Indicted: Internet Research Agency
• Indicted: Concord Management

• Guilty Plea: Michael Flynn
• Guilty Plea: Michael Cohen
• Guilty Plea: George Papadopolous
• Guilty Plea: Richard Pinedo
• Guilty Plea: Alex van der Zwaan
• Guilty Plea: Rick Gates
• Guilty Plea: Paul Manafort (some charges)
• Found Guilty: Paul Manafort (some charges)

Some of the charges (191 and counting):

• Conspiracy against the USA (4 counts)
• Obstruction of justice (1 count)
• Obstruction of Proceeding (1 count)
• Conspiracy to obstruct justice (2 counts)
• Witness Tampering (1 count)
• Making false statements (10 counts)
• Failure to report foreign bank and financial accounts (7 counts)
• Conspiracy to defraud the United States (4 counts)
• Aggravated identity theft (28 counts)
• Identity fraud (1 count)
• Bank fraud (4 counts)
• Bank fraud conspiracy (10 counts)
• Conspiracy to commit wire fraud and bank fraud (1 count)
• Conspiracy to launder money (2 counts)
• Filing a false amended return (1 count)
• Subscribing to false tax returns (5 counts)
• Assisting in preparation of false tax returns (5 counts)

[RCA]

Simply screeching "impeach him" isn't how our CJ system operates.

Facts matter. Your feelings? Not so much.

I get the feeling that certain people are strawmaning.

The posts on the politics forum seem to be arguing against the angry extreme right-wing radio host's version of what a "liberal" is.

Fun fact you were the first one to mention the "I" word in this thread. No one else mentioned it. Why characterize me so poorly?

My take on the Mueller report isn't that Trump should be in shackles, it's that the report is damning. It doesn't exonerate him like some others here claim it does. I chuckled when you posted about how Trump is free from Russian involvement because of Barr's summary. I didn't respond because I was waiting for the actual report. We now know Barr wasn't being honest.

We should hold the President of the United States to a higher standard.
Collusion isn't against the law, conspiracy is and so is obstruction of justice.
The report had bumper guards so they couldn't do everything they wanted.
This is why other courts are being left to further investigate.

TL;DR - The Mueller report isn't WINNING it's a huge loss.

[Bubba1]

fwiw, I've started to chip away at reading the report. It's actually not that bad a read. But for those of you that made your conclusions without actually reading it, John Oliver had a pretty funny recap of it last night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMBj_tU7HRU

[AZhitman]

It all makes for good news and discussion. Some of us who spent a lot of our careers actually IN a courtroom are yawning because we remember the impossibility of speaking ill of our previous CIC, or HRC, despite the numerous occasions of flouting the law or outright violations thereof.

We all know how this works - and it's absolutely comical to watch defenders of HRC, BHO, and WJC sit here and cast stones as if their political heroes are somehow morally superior. When is the DNC's love-fest with Russia going to be fully investigated? The evidence is no less damning - and we're supposed to stand down because HRC couldn't even win a rigged election?

See, it's all a political tool - You're absolutely right, POTUS should be held to the highest of standards. So should everyone in Congress. But they're not. They're buffoons, the greater lot of them. And we've allowed it.

So, pardon me if this doesn't get me riled up. I'm nonplussed to say the least, simply because unless we're heading for an arrest, conviction and sentencing, it's no different than what we've grown accustomed to. We've tolerated more and more nonsense as time passes (look at what the Nixon Admin did, and look at how history views him).

Again, my "haymakers" aren't aimed at you or any logical thinker. They're aimed squarely, as you indicated, at the loudest mouths and the lowest common denominators (hi Howie)... the political cheerleaders who slobber over things like this like it's anything more than a festering, infected tabloid-ish race to the bottom of the dung pit.

[Bubba1]

Just finished reading it. Pretty safe to conclude that there's significant evidence of multiple (10?) cases of obstruction (volume II). If this was anyone other than a sitting president being accused, they'd be indicted already. Barr misled everyone about the report's conclusions claiming complete exoneration. He even admitted he had not read the report before issuing his "summary". It seems clear the President didn't read it either. That's both obvious and sickening. I doubt Congress can disbar Barr, or bar Barr from this case, but it's obvious Barr lowered the bar by choosing a president's personal interests over the rule of law. He probably should not be Attorney General. But I think most folks that feel the president has been completely exonerated did not read the report. Yes I know, there are also plenty of anti-Trumpers that haven't read it, and that's wrong too. Can't say whether Howie did or not. I'm just concerned he'll try to cut and paste all 400+ pages. If any of you haven't read it, I recommend you do, which presents it without media/political spin. You can make up your own mind. As far as a case for impeachment, the evidence appears enough to at least begin impeachment proceedings, but whether the House should actually impeach him is a tough call. There seems to be enough Democratic votes in the house to impeach him, but not enough Republican votes in the Senate necessary to convict him. Thus making impeachment at this point little more than a partisan political exercise. So to me it's probably not worth doing. If they don't impeach him, it doesn't mean he didn't obstruct. It's sad how DC politicians have sunk into such a spineless, partisan, finger pointing "dung pit". ok, resume chaos.

[telcoman]

Telcoman