Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

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float_6969
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Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby float_6969 » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:48 am

I have stock DET cams, an extra stock exhaust cam, and HKS 264's @ 8.5mm lift IN & EX. The car is NA right now (but has high compression pistons) as I'm waiting for my turbo manifold. Is anyone interested in a DE cam comparison?


dash
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Re: Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby dash » Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:43 pm

I'd think na + higher compression, the results would be unique to your setup only....vs typical ca18det
A cam comparison would take dyno & a good amount of time/effort, no ?

After seeing a 547hp 1.6 miata, 536hp 1.8 4/7age & a 600hp 'stock' DSM 2.0.... all street cars on stock cams
All 35+psi on 61ish mm turbos tho. So not uber "efficient" ? Makes you wonder.

Aussie Camtach 270 regrinds seem to be "working" in one full weight street ca18det corolla
10.3 sec 1/4mile on a precision 5557 at only 22psi! Fast efficient combo imo

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Re: Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby dash » Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:50 pm

Cant forget Mobne. 705hp to the tires, 35r cranked up, mild Tomei 260 hydraulic cams. Hot performance

boost_boy probably got a lot of ca18 cam experience/input

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Re: Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby float_6969 » Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:15 am

Yes, it would take time and effort, but if there was much interest, I'd be willing to do it. Based on feedback (or the lack of it) on here and FB, I'm thinking I'll probably save myself the trouble.

Yea, I've seen lots of similarly sized cars make great power on stock cams. That's the nice thing about boost!

The thing I've seen when you get into the 270-ish degree cams is people not being willing to rev them up high enough to take full advantage of the cam. On my last build, my 264's didn't fall off until basically 8K rpm. I'm betting the 270-ish cams won't peak until around 8500-8750. I think for street cars, the HKS 264's are about as high as you'd want to go.

Mobne's build is still infamous, even by today's standards!

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Re: Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby dash » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:55 am

Good point on the 8000rpm limit. Make your motor efficient(more torque) in that range, will deliver whatever you want
Buick GNs only need 5600rpm to melt your face. Starion 2.6, 6300. Ford 2.3sohc, 6700.... and so on

I see no point for hi revving street cars. 10-11,000 rpm gets you nothing, except unreliability it seems
Seen some hi strung 4AGE builds do just that. 1/4mile et no improvement over their 8k rpm conterparts. Zero
ALL three hi revvers did split their cylinder bores tho. So there's your 'prize' ?

Old school 'turbo' cams always had more duration on the intake than exhaust. Those old 2 valvers ripped
This practice rarely seen on 4 valves. Seen a couple ca18 veterans yield excellent results doing so, dyno'd on sxoc
Another built his street supercharged corolla 1.8 version 4age, bigger SC14 blower, HKS 264 intake and 256 exhaust cams
Folks raved over the torque/response/acceleration, from that 'puny' lil 1.8 street car
Point is, some pretty sharp folks continued the cam tune as the old schoolers. Amazing results. I'm sold on it

sxoc and nissansilvia.com dyno'd DE and 2 det exhaust cams. Also showed the benefits of keeping the flaps in the 8-port
First megasquirted 4AGE clubmember was blown away by how the TVIS intake flaps, spooled the turbo almost 1k rpm quicker... producing "V8 like" torque and acceleration. "Tuning" can yield interesting gains

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Re: Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby VStar650CL » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:46 am

dash wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:55 am
Good point on the 8000rpm limit. Make your motor efficient(more torque) in that range, will deliver whatever you want
Buick GNs only need 5600rpm to melt your face. Starion 2.6, 6300. Ford 2.3sohc, 6700.... and so on

I see no point for hi revving street cars. 10-11,000 rpm gets you nothing, except unreliability it seems
Seen some hi strung 4AGE builds do just that. 1/4mile et no improvement over their 8k rpm conterparts. Zero
ALL three hi revvers did split their cylinder bores tho. So there's your 'prize' ?

Old school 'turbo' cams always had more duration on the intake than exhaust. Those old 2 valvers ripped
This practice rarely seen on 4 valves. Seen a couple ca18 veterans yield excellent results doing so, dyno'd on sxoc
Another built his street supercharged corolla 1.8 version 4age, bigger SC14 blower, HKS 264 intake and 256 exhaust cams
Folks raved over the torque/response/acceleration, from that 'puny' lil 1.8 street car
Point is, some pretty sharp folks continued the cam tune as the old schoolers. Amazing results. I'm sold on it

sxoc and nissansilvia.com dyno'd DE and 2 det exhaust cams. Also showed the benefits of keeping the flaps in the 8-port
First megasquirted 4AGE clubmember was blown away by how the TVIS intake flaps, spooled the turbo almost 1k rpm quicker... producing "V8 like" torque and acceleration. "Tuning" can yield interesting gains
+1 on all of that. Just a generic comment, but every "air pump" has a physical limit on how much air you can move, so it's axiomatic (and simple physics) that the faster you make that air column move at peak power, the more room it needs and the slower it will move at RPM's below the powerband. Revs will always be an advantage in something like NASCAR where you're in top gear all the time, but not in a line race where acceleration means more than ultimate speed. You'd need a 21-speed tranny or a monster CVT to take real advantage of 11K RPM. In practice, that ain't happening. So the best setups in line races will always be good compromises between ultimate power and the width of the powerband.

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Re: Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby float_6969 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:48 pm

dash wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:55 am
Good point on the 8000rpm limit. Make your motor efficient(more torque) in that range, will deliver whatever you want
Buick GNs only need 5600rpm to melt your face. Starion 2.6, 6300. Ford 2.3sohc, 6700.... and so on

I see no point for hi revving street cars. 10-11,000 rpm gets you nothing, except unreliability it seems
Seen some hi strung 4AGE builds do just that. 1/4mile et no improvement over their 8k rpm conterparts. Zero
ALL three hi revvers did split their cylinder bores tho. So there's your 'prize' ?

Old school 'turbo' cams always had more duration on the intake than exhaust. Those old 2 valvers ripped
This practice rarely seen on 4 valves. Seen a couple ca18 veterans yield excellent results doing so, dyno'd on sxoc
Another built his street supercharged corolla 1.8 version 4age, bigger SC14 blower, HKS 264 intake and 256 exhaust cams
Folks raved over the torque/response/acceleration, from that 'puny' lil 1.8 street car
Point is, some pretty sharp folks continued the cam tune as the old schoolers. Amazing results. I'm sold on it

sxoc and nissansilvia.com dyno'd DE and 2 det exhaust cams. Also showed the benefits of keeping the flaps in the 8-port
First megasquirted 4AGE clubmember was blown away by how the TVIS intake flaps, spooled the turbo almost 1k rpm quicker... producing "V8 like" torque and acceleration. "Tuning" can yield interesting gains
The CA18DE(T) has pretty poor exhaust port flow. Like, it peaks at only 6-ish mm of lift. The intake side does much better. That makes me wonder if that's why Nissan ran more exhaust lift and duration on the turbo cams. Maybe they knew the exhaust port were flow limited compared to the intake? If I could get my hands on some 254-ish cams, I'd love to do a bunch of testing to see how they all compare, but cams are REALLY difficult to get now.

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Re: Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby VStar650CL » Sun Nov 14, 2021 12:37 am

float_6969 wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:48 pm
The CA18DE(T) has pretty poor exhaust port flow. Like, it peaks at only 6-ish mm of lift. The intake side does much better. That makes me wonder if that's why Nissan ran more exhaust lift and duration on the turbo cams. Maybe they knew the exhaust port were flow limited compared to the intake? If I could get my hands on some 254-ish cams, I'd love to do a bunch of testing to see how they all compare, but cams are REALLY difficult to get now.
Until recently (with CAD simulations) finding right combinations of lift, duration, ramp, and port size was something of a black art. Often what seems like restrictive flow is actually an artifact of the OE increasing speed of the air column by reducing valve size but ramping the cam sharply. That was especially true before computer controls and Miller-cycling, because it's generally great for low-end driveability on the street. For racing power, not so much. Without reworking for larger seats or replacing the heads outright, you're kind of stuck working around what the OE did by tinkering the things that are tinker-able, which are lift and duration. In the case of your turbo cams, Nissan was probably doing the same thing, working around the drawbacks in their own "streetable" NA head design without actually having to change heads.

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Re: Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby dash » Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:56 am

shorter duration exhaust samples dyno'd on sxoc were all 4 port, T28 & cossie T3. Dunno if any difference
Either way, you get sizzling performance from 4 and 8 port. Euro guys who tried both, on same setup, always prefer the 4 tho

"poor flow" must be on a bench, because it certainly doesn't manifest itself in CA18 performance at the tires - where it counts
Normally aspirated maybe ? ...but nullified once you have boost on the backside of the intake valve. Dunno
Turbo for turbo, pound for pound, the old CA can slug it out with the best of 'em.... from my observations

Ryso full wt street car, unopened 20+ year old ca18 + t3/t4 @16psi only - et 11.1sec
Aaron's mildly moded ca18 powered starlet, terrorized heavily moded skylines, evos, rx7s
daily driven rolla mentioned above.... how many low compression 1.8 full street cars go 10.3sec on a 55mm turbo @ only 22psi ?

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Re: Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby dash » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:11 am

these wicked fools seem to be trying to destroy the world right now
On this course, we'd be lucky to find a tin of beans, a pound of ground beef, etc.... let alone a ca18 camshaft
if or when things settle down: Delta(usa) regrinds deliver in DSMs, or Camtech down under. Possible options

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Re: Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby VStar650CL » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:02 am

dash wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:11 am
these wicked fools seem to be trying to destroy the world right now
On this course, we'd be lucky to find a tin of beans, a pound of ground beef, etc.... let alone a ca18 camshaft
:cool: :rotfl

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Re: Any interest in a camshaft comparison?

Postby boost_boy » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:11 pm

I got plenty of stock cams. If you guys are even attempting this test, you may want to do it on a virgin stock engine. These engines are really cool and more reliable than people think. Revving a stock engine past 7200rpm is near pointless. A stock CA18DE that's properly tuned and not boosted past 15psi, seems like the perfect drift engine because you get the best of high compression and the efficiency of a small turbocharger. But yeah, I got some camshafts and a bunch of other stuff hiding in the garage. Oh yeah, what's been happening fellas.

Dee


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