Any help appreciated: rear wheels not turning

A forum for the legendary Nissan Pathfinder and Infiniti QX4.
nmixon
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:13 pm
Car: I998 Infiniti QX4

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Hi, and thanks in advance for any ideas of where to go from here... And sorry for such a long first post but I am trying to include everthing I can think of that may (or not) be pertinent.

Here's the story:
I bought this 1998 QX4 only in the beginning of July, so I haven't had it long. When I got it, the brakes/pedal were great - felt nice, not overly tight, and no "pedal drop" or mushiness, no noises or other cues there's anything potentially wrong. Whenever I obtain a "new" auto, I also read the owner's manual and go through some of the repair manual (OK, I skim over this) info to learn if there are specfic things I should know... With the QX4, the only changes I noted off-hand were that the hand brake would cause the rear drums to "auto-adjust" and information about the 4wd/All-Mode use (since this is my first 4wd).

So, I began to use the hand brake regularly whenever parked. After several days of doing this, I noticed my brake pedal felt low. Sorry, that's all I can really say: it didn't really feel like a sponge, the truck stopped ok (maybe a little slower, but then it could be the longer travel made me feel like it was almost to the floor in comparison to what it was up to several days before), and no noises or other problems - the pedal simply had excess travel. Also, 'pumping' them didn't make them any better or any change at all. I first thought that I should just check the brakes; no biggie. Took it to multiple places (because I didn't want to do what I'm doing now and would've gladly paid someone) and they all said it was normal (and that the pedal change may be my imagination).

I still believed the pedal traveled too far, so I Googled for a bit and found that other Nissan owners had some kind of difficulty with longer pedal travel &/or mushy brakes after using their hand brakes as well. So, I took it to a place to have that checked. All they did, they said, was clean the rear brakes and adjust the hand brake. Since then, there's no change to the pedal and it didn't appear there was any difference to the hand brake (same # of clicks held/slowed it).

After that, I figured I'd just change the brakes and bleed it...wouldn't hurt, right? I started on the rear drums, jacking both rear wheels off the ground with chocks in front of and behind both front tires and jack stands placed. I made sure the hand brake was all the way down. Once the tires were off, I was just looking at the drums and areas on the back of them for obvious leaks or problems and I noticed that neither wheel was turning. Thinking this could be the hand brake jammed up, I proceeded to remove the drums - using two 8mm bolts (the two that hold the rear driver side seat on ;) ) because I could feel and see slight movement of the drums, couldn't get the adjuster 'clip' to release (to decrease it's tightness in order to relieve pressure from the shoes if they were hung up), and using the hammer didn't help.

Once the drums were off, I inspected again for leaks and problems. I saw brake dust everywhere, a very small amount of gunk around the passenger side cylinder (so I'll replace both), the shoes toward the front of the truck (on both sides) were worn twice as much as those toward the rear of the truck, and the hand brake cable was 'bunched'.

...OK. Cylinders could be worn, causing possible air to enter the system and could potenially cause the shoes to wear unevenly. But wouldn't pumping the pedal when I was driving have made some kind of difference if air was in the line? A 'bunched' up hand brake line could potentialy be a 'stuck' line and cause the wheels not to turn. Correct? If not, please feel free to jump right in...

So, while thinking these things, I removed the springs/other hardware, shoes, and hand brake cable. This, now done to both sides, should remove any possible binding that may have been caused by any aforemention brake issues and the wheels should now turn. Correct? They don't. I have also put the automatic transmission shifter into neutral, although I've not been informed that this is needed if both rear wheels are jacked off the ground. Still no joy.

Now here's the final caveat: both of these wheels were definately turning in all this time I've been driving it - you know, in gear and going down the road - right up to two days ago when I parked it in the gravel/dirt/grass driveway knowing I'd be jacking it up soon. And there's been absolutely no sign/sound of either of them locking up during the 'in a small town' trips, out on the dirt/gravel where we live, or on major interstates at up to 70mph. Just the feel of a brake pedal traveling toward the floor too much.

Which leads me to: please, please, please. Any sugestions wil be accepted - even if you ask me to replace everything (new) that I have on (shoes, cylinders, springs, and clean hardware and drums), bleed it, and drive it again to be certain they still turn going down the road (which may be my next step if no other 'checks' are provided by forum members). I even have the front pads and hardware, but haven't gotten around to removing anything (just figured if I'm gonna do all this...). But if there's something I can check while it's still jacked up (even noob mistakes - oh yeah, I am a noob), I am more than willing to read your comments and check/recheck whatever I can.

Again, thanks for any assistance.


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atraudes
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:46 pm
Car: 2001.5 Infiniti QX4 4WD
Location: Sammamish, WA

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Stupid question that springs to mind: it wasn't in 4WD when the wheels weren't turning, correct?

Another thing that comes to mind is that you say the front-most shoes were worn twice as much as the rear-most ones. Makes me wonder if some adjustment is off and the front ones are being used more and/or pushed up against the drum all the time, while the rear ones have space between the shoe and drum, causing you to have to push down on the pedal to push them to the drum. Kinda odd that it didn't self-correct and that no one noticed it while checking things out :confused:

I'm curious to hear what you find with the pedal going too far down before braking. I'm having a similar problem though I believe it's just air in the lines. I replaced the master cylinder yesterday thinking it was that and bled the lines again to have the problem only marginally improve. At this point I'm thinking the MityVac technique I'm using is somehow letting air in the lines.

No idea what shape my drums are in, but I'll take a look the next time the wheel's off the ground (probably this weekend). Keep posting your findings here and I'll check back as I continue my hunt, and we can compare notes.

As a shot in the dark, has your "Brake" light (in the cluster) been stuck on at any point? Mine got stuck on for a few miles after a brake bleed despite the handbrake being down. It ended up going away by itself.

nmixon
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:13 pm
Car: I998 Infiniti QX4

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Thank you for your reply.

I had tried with both the auto transmission shifter and the 4Hi/Lo shifter in neutral several times, but did it again todayafter I put the new cylinders on (while I waited just to be sure they weren't leaking). ...and, although it wasn't "easy", they did finally turn. (Yay)

As far as adjustment...since the one place claimed they adjusted the hand brake and it was bound up when I removed the drums, I'll be loosening them and adusting them as if I replaced the cable just to be sure they weren't overly adusted. (Could that be a cause of pulling the rear-most shoes forward and away from the drums, and maybe shoving the front-most ones also forward to push onto the drums? Sounds logical...) [I'm not certain anyone actually took the time to remove the drums. They were stuck on and full of dust and crap when I took them off, but I wasn't charged for anything except "adjusting the hand brake" for $15. Mostly, I was told they were fine after they drove it no more than a few blocks.)

I also considered the master cylinder and booster, but thought I'd give this a go first. I'm under the impression that the master cylinder usually would cause a 'continued' pedal drop as you're pressing it, which I didn't have. And, if I'm not mistaken, the booster would usually cause a hard/rock-like pedal, which also I didn't have.

The brake cluster light has never been 'stuck' on. It has only come on and gone off as the hand brake was pulled up or released. (In case you mean another light for warning on the brake system, no - no other light.)

I'll be putting the brakes (front & rear) on tonight (and maybe finish tomorrow since I don't have much time today, if the weather doesn't turn into a torrential downpour) and be sure to post back after it's all done, bled, and 'test driven'.

nmixon
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:13 pm
Car: I998 Infiniti QX4

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I finished putting new pads/shoes on, along with hardware, etc as noted in my previous posts. I bled the brakes, getting air out from two of the valves. Then I adjusted the hand brake from scratch and took it for a drive on gravel/dirt and on a paved side road and in a parking lot, using drive and reverse, as well as the hand brake. The drums did self-adjust a couple of times, but I felt changes in the pedal when pumping that indicated there may still be air in the system.

I re-bled them and checked the adustment on the hand brake again. No air returned during this bleeding, but I adusted the hand brake this time tightly when pulled to the 4th notch. The hand brake now will be fully tight "yanking" it up to the 6th notch.

Took it back out using drive, reverse, and the hand brake again and it seems much tighter in the pedal as well. I'm no longer being able to 'make the pedal harder' with pumping.

Guess I'll drive it now for a week or so, using the hand brake when parked, and see if anything changes again. If I find any further changes, I guess I'll have to call someone that used to do some of my work who's several hours away. But for now, it appears solved.

Buzzman
Posts: 2079
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:35 pm
Car: 2016 Lexus RX 350
2023 Kia Stinger Elite V6 AWD.

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FYI, the brakes on these things have to be bled in a specific order. It's important.

I copied this from the "how to" section in the stickies:

For 1996-1997 models:

1. LSV air bleeder (Models equipped with LSV)
2. Left rear brake
3. Right rear brake
4. Left front brake
5. Right front brake

For 1998-2002 models:

1. LSV air bleeder (4WD models only)
2. Left rear brake
3. Right rear brake
4. Left front brake
5. Right front brake

For 2003-2004 models:

1. Left rear brake
2. Right rear brake
3. Left front brake
4. Right front brake

The LSV valve is the load-sensing valve. Here is how you bleed it:

1. Disconnect the spring.
2. Bleed the LSV like you would a brake line, then pull the lever to the full down position and repeat. Cycling the lever a few times will help get the bubbles out, too.
3. Lubricate parts where required.
4. Continue bleeding the brakes in the correct order.

nmixon
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:13 pm
Car: I998 Infiniti QX4

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I understand the bleed order via the manual, as well as verifying elsewhere, but thank you for adding information that I didn't think to add to my post when saying I bled them. That would be great information for someone to be certain of before bleeding the brakes.

Air could possibly be trapped elsewhere in the ABS system, so, if I notice further problems, I may consider having a dealership bleed the entire system because they would be able to put in on the machine that opens valves or such in a specific order and would be able to verify that the ABS system is completely bled.

Thanks for the reply.

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patqx4
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:53 am
Car: 2002 QX4
Location: Halifax, NS

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Not all 98-2002 r50 4x4 has the lsv, my 2002 qx4 does not have one.

nmixon
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:13 pm
Car: I998 Infiniti QX4

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Although mine definitely does have the load sensing valve and needs to be bleed, you're right that some don't. Thanks for sharing that information.


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